Salary Cap: 2019-20 - Leafs Salary Cap issues and adjustments?

[56 Years No Cup]

I just read the very detailed ppp article on options to get out of Marleaus contract. It says the only real way will be Marleau retiring after July 1st and the leafs trading the empty cap space. It seems very well researched with links provided to back things up.

I just read the article. It backs up everything that I have said.

Trying To Magic Away The Patrick Marleau Contract

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I just read the article. It backs up everything that I have said.

Trying To Magic Away The Patrick Marleau Contract

It says there is the option to pay signing bonus, he retires, and then trade the cap space.

It does agree with you that it's unlikely he'll want to do that.

Hers what it says at the end of that section "He could nonetheless say he’s had enough and call it a day. And you can hope he does! But I think saying it’s likely is letting the wish be father to the thought."

 

[56 Years No Cup]

It says there is the option to pay signing bonus, he retires, and then trade the cap space.

It does agree with you that it's unlikely he'll want to do that.

Hers what it says at the end of that section "He could nonetheless say he’s had enough and call it a day. And you can hope he does! But I think saying it’s likely is letting the wish be father to the thought."

I think you need to read it again.

 

[Mess]

I just read the very detailed ppp article on options to get out of Marleaus contract. It says the only real way will be Marleau retiring after July 1st and the leafs trading the empty cap space. It seems very well researched with links provided to back things up.

There are NHL examples of this under the new CBA..

Pavel Datsyuk retires from the NHL with 1 year remaining on his +35 deal... Detroit traded the retired contract (the player doesn't care or NMC come into play) to Arizona who then use it to get to the cap floor without spending money.

Source: Red Wings trade Pavel Datsyuk's contract to Coyotes - Sportsnet.ca

Red Wings trade Pavel Datsyuk’s contract to Coyotes

The Detroit Red Wings traded the 16th-overall pick and Pavel Datsyuk‘s contract to the Arizona Coyotes for the 20th- and 53rd-overall selections in the 2016 NHL Draft plus forward Joe Vitale.

Datsyuk announced earlier this month he was leaving Detroit to return home to play in Russia’s Kontinental Hockey League. The 37-year-old had one year remaining on his contract with the Red Wings when he decided to leave. Despite the fact he’d be playing in Russia, his $7.5-million salary cap hit would’ve remained on Detroit’s books next season since he signed his latest contract after he turned 35.

Adding cap hits from a player like Datsyuk helps franchises like the Coyotes, which operate under a smaller budget than many teams, get to the cap floor.

 

[Legion34]

I just read the article. It backs up everything that I have said.

Trying To Magic Away The Patrick Marleau Contract

There is nothing in this article or anything said here that would make marleau have to retire on June 30.

There is nothing that says that if he were to be traded and retire. Then the cap hit goes to Toronto.

There is no more cap recapture. That stopped in 2013.

Marleau is a 35 plus contract. If he retires the cap hit in full goes to the team he retired from. Not the original team that signed it.

Nothing you have said proves that can’t happen

Dats was a 35 contract. He retired. The cap is on the yotes

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There is nothing in this article or anything said here that would make marleau have to retire on June 30.

There is nothing that says that if he were to be traded and retire. Then the cap hit goes to Toronto.

There is no more cap recapture. That stopped in 2013.

Marleau is a 35 plus contract. If he retires the cap hit in full goes to the team he retired from. Not the original team that signed it.

Nothing you have said proves that can’t happen

Dats was a 35 contract. He retired. The cap is on the yotes

No kidding. The article pretty clearly says he ld take the signing bonus, retire, and then have the cap space traded.

There are NHL examples of this under the new CBA..

Pavel Datsyuk retires from the NHL with 1 year remaining on his +35 deal... Detroit traded the retired contract (the player doesn't care or NMC come into play) to Arizona who then use it to get to the cap floor without spending money.

Source: Red Wings trade Pavel Datsyuk's contract to Coyotes - Sportsnet.ca

Red Wings trade Pavel Datsyuk’s contract to Coyotes

The Detroit Red Wings traded the 16th-overall pick and Pavel Datsyuk‘s contract to the Arizona Coyotes for the 20th- and 53rd-overall selections in the 2016 NHL Draft plus forward Joe Vitale.

Datsyuk announced earlier this month he was leaving Detroit to return home to play in Russia’s Kontinental Hockey League. The 37-year-old had one year remaining on his contract with the Red Wings when he decided to leave. Despite the fact he’d be playing in Russia, his $7.5-million salary cap hit would’ve remained on Detroit’s books next season since he signed his latest contract after he turned 35.

Adding cap hits from a player like Datsyuk helps franchises like the Coyotes, which operate under a smaller budget than many teams, get to the cap floor.

yep. The ppp article references that precise example as well. But Datsyuk did retire before June 31st. I'm honestly not sure if that means anyone or not.

 

[666]

For anyone who cares here are the only mentions of 35+ contracts in the CBA.

Under calculating “Average club Salary”

All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year 264 ARTICLE 50 50.5-50.5 SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster or Non-Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary; plus

Under Calculating “Actual club Salary”

All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Actual Club Salary; plus

 

[56 Years No Cup]

There is nothing in this article or anything said here that would make marleau have to retire on June 30.

There is nothing that says that if he were to be traded and retire. Then the cap hit goes to Toronto.

There is no more cap recapture. That stopped in 2013.

Marleau is a 35 plus contract. If he retires the cap hit in full goes to the team he retired from. Not the original team that signed it.

Nothing you have said proves that can’t happen

Dats was a 35 contract. He retired. The cap is on the yotes

Dats went to the KHL and Arizona needed to get to the cap floor and spend no cash. Detroit gave Zona a first round draft pick to do this. Do we have a first round draft pick? Does Zona need to get to the cap floor now?

In every single scenario raised where Marleau is dealt with after the season ends but before July 1 it is highly unlikely another team would choose to do so because there is no advantage for them to do it. They would be on the hook for the July 1 signing bonus even if they buy Marleau out. Of course, he can't be traded unless we waives the NMC. So far we have quite a few reasons why he won't and Wishful Fan Thinking that he will.

In every scenario raised where the contract is dealt with after July 1 the Leafs retain the cap hit. In order for Wishful Fan Thinking to come true, you are depending on another team being interested in Marleau, that said team is willing to take Marleau on, that said team has a reasonable quid pro quo for doing the Leafs a "favour", that said team is a team that wishes to eat cap and has the cap room to do so, and that Marleau waives his NMC and wants to retire.

One thing I will agree on is that the scenario where we pay the signing bonus and that trade him to another team to retire is not specifically addressed in the article. However, that would require all of the conditions I have stated in the previous paragraph to be met and I don't think it's realistic for that to happen.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

No kidding. The article pretty clearly says he ld take the signing bonus, retire, and then have the cap space traded.

yep. The ppp article references that precise example as well. But Datsyuk did retire before June 31st. I'm honestly not sure if that means anyone or not.

Too the bold: Really? Where?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Too the bold: Really? Where?

Under the "retire after signing bonus and trade the cap space" seton, the article states that if Marleau retires the leafs still have the cap hit. It then says that the cap hit could be traded, and gives Datsyuk as an example. It ends by saying that HOPEFULLY Marleau does that, but don't count on it.

It doesn't say anything about your June 31st deadline. And then 666 posted the entire "35 and above" section of the cba. Still nothing like you're claiming.

The burdens of proof is on you, as you're the one making the case. We can't prove that your phantom theory doesn't exist, because why would there be articles written about a phantom theory?

Do you have ANY supporting evidence that suggests the whole he needs to retire before June 30th argument? I'm not even saying you're wrong necessarily. I'm not a cap expert. But I quite literally can't find any evidence that supports your theory. And I looked pretty hard.

 

[BrainyBomber]

Dats went to the KHL and Arizona needed to get to the cap floor and spend no cash. Detroit gave Zona a first round draft pick to do this. Do we have a first round draft pick? Does Zona need to get to the cap floor now?

Wrong Detroit did not give Arizona a 1st round pick to dump Datsyuk's retired contract. They swapped 1st rounders so Arizona could move up 4 spots from 20th but Detroit also received pick #53. Basically a wash.

So it wouldn't cost too much to dump Marleau's retired contract.

Red Wings GM works magic in Datsyuk trade

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Under the "retire after signing bonus and trade the cap space" seton, the article states that if Marleau retires the leafs still have the cap hit. It then says that the cap hit could be traded, and gives Datsyuk as an example. It ends by saying that HOPEFULLY Marleau does that, but don't count on it.

It doesn't say anything about your June 31st deadline. And then 666 posted the entire "35 and above" section of the cba. Still nothing like you're claiming.

The burdens of proof is on you, as you're the one making the case. We can't prove that your phantom theory doesn't exist, because why would there be articles written about a phantom theory?

Do you have ANY supporting evidence that suggests the whole he needs to retire before June 30th argument? I'm not even saying you're wrong necessarily. I'm not a cap expert. But I quite literally can't find any evidence that supports your theory. And I looked pretty hard.

I was wrong on the "he has to retire before June 30" issue, but ironically for the wrong reasons. I thought we got cap relief if he did so. We don't. The Datsyuk situation is not the same as the Marleau situation as Marleau ain't going to the KHL.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Wrong Detroit did not give Arizona a 1st round pick to dump Datsyuk's retired contract. They swapped 1st rounders so Arizona could move up 4 spots from 20th but Detroit also received pick #53. Basically a wash.

So it wouldn't cost too much to dump Marleau's retired contract.

Red Wings GM works magic in Datsyuk trade

If Marleau wishes to be traded and wishes to retire.

 

[666]

The proper interpretation is that the Leafs can pay the $4M bonus then IF Marleau agrees to a trade they can trade him to a team that will have to pay him $1.25M for a $6.25M cap hit.

If he agrees to retire with that team and the Leafs kick in a draft pick it could work. There certainly wouldn't be any cap circumvention or anything illegal about it as the player gets his money and the cap is assigned to someone.

The Leafs could encourage Marleau by telling him he won't play for them either way similar to McCabe etc.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I was wrong on the "he has to retire before June 30" issue, but ironically for the wrong reasons. I thought we got cap relief if he did so. We don't. The Datsyuk situation is not the same as the Marleau situation as Marleau ain't going to the KHL.

Datsyuk going to the khl has nothing to do with the situation. There is no "khl clause" for over 35 contracts in the cba.

Now, I believe Detroit could have stopped Datsyuk from going to the khl based on some sort of NHL/khl agreement but they chose not to. But it had absolutely no bearing on his over 35 contract.

It's all is simple. Marleau is old and has 80 mil in the bank. The 1.2 million matters little to him, especially after getting 3 million for essentially free, just waiting till July 1sr to announce his retirement.

Is he feeling his age and ready to retire? If so, it won't be hard to trade his cap hit.

Or is he still gung ho for hockey, and wants to give it one more year? If so, I can't see any reason why he wouldn't just stay and play the season.

We don't know. We're all just speculating. I don't see either option as far fetched.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

The proper interpretation is that the Leafs can pay the $4M bonus then IF Marleau agrees to a trade they can trade him to a team that will have to pay him $1.25M for a $6.25M cap hit.

If he agrees to retire with that team and the Leafs kick in a draft pick it could work. There certainly wouldn't be any cap circumvention or anything illegal about it as the player gets his money and the cap is assigned to someone.

The Leafs could encourage Marleau by telling him he won't play for them either way similar to McCabe etc.

1) Does Dubas have it in him to be such a big meanie?
2) What does this say to the other players and future FA's if Dubas can find it in him to be a big meanie?
3) Marleau still has to waive his NMC.
4) Marleau still has to agree to retire.
5) Which teams actually have the cap space and desire to do this?
6) How high is the price going to be if the Leafs can find a willing team?

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Datsyuk going to the khl has nothing to do with the situation. There is no "khl clause" for over 35 contracts in the cba.

Now, I believe Detroit could have stopped Datsyuk from going to the khl based on some sort of NHL/khl agreement but they chose not to. But it had absolutely no bearing on his over 35 contract.

It's all is simple. Marleau is old and has 80 mil in the bank. The 1.2 million matters little to him, especially after getting 3 million for essentially free, just waiting till July 1sr to announce his retirement.

Is he feeling his age and ready to retire? If so, it won't be hard to trade his cap hit.

Or is he still gung ho for hockey, and wants to give it one more year? If so, I can't see any reason why he wouldn't just stay and play the season.

We don't know. We're all just speculating. I don't see either option as far fetched.

I see a pro that hasn't reached the ultimate goal...the Stanley Cup. I don't see him leaving a team that has a good chance of that next year. Of course, if they win this year, I can get on board that he'll retire on top.

EDIT: TIL that 39-40 is "Old". There's no hope for a guy like me then!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I see a pro that hasn't reached the ultimate goal...the Stanley Cup. I don't see him leaving a team that has a good chance of that next year. Of course, if they win this year, I can get on board that he'll retire on top.

EDIT: TIL that 39-40 is "Old". There's no hope for a guy like me then!

It's old for a professional athlete. And once the decay starts, it happens VERY quickly at such ages (which we're seeing right before our eyes)

The VAST majority of players retire before 40, Even when they aspire for a cup, so it's not like it's some rare thing.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

It's old for a professional athlete. And once the decay starts, it happens VERY quickly at such ages (which we're seeing right before our eyes)

The VAST majority of players retire before 40, Even when they aspire for a cup, so it's not like it's some rare thing.

It's a joke man! That said, that damn puke Chara! Damn him to hell!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It's a joke man! That said, that damn puke Chara! Damn him to hell!

And let's not get started on Jagr. Isn't he STILL going?

 

[56 Years No Cup]

And let's not get started on Jagr. Isn't he STILL going?

Is he? I thought he was done.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Is he? I thought he was done.

Plays for the Czech league.

 

[Legion34]

Dats went to the KHL and Arizona needed to get to the cap floor and spend no cash. Detroit gave Zona a first round draft pick to do this. Do we have a first round draft pick? Does Zona need to get to the cap floor now?

In every single scenario raised where Marleau is dealt with after the season ends but before July 1 it is highly unlikely another team would choose to do so because there is no advantage for them to do it. They would be on the hook for the July 1 signing bonus even if they buy Marleau out. Of course, he can't be traded unless we waives the NMC. So far we have quite a few reasons why he won't and Wishful Fan Thinking that he will.

In every scenario raised where the contract is dealt with after July 1 the Leafs retain the cap hit. In order for Wishful Fan Thinking to come true, you are depending on another team being interested in Marleau, that said team is willing to take Marleau on, that said team has a reasonable quid pro quo for doing the Leafs a "favour", that said team is a team that wishes to eat cap and has the cap room to do so, and that Marleau waives his NMC and wants to retire.

One thing I will agree on is that the scenario where we pay the signing bonus and that trade him to another team to retire is not specifically addressed in the article. However, that would require all of the conditions I have stated in the previous paragraph to be met and I don't think it's realistic for that to happen.

As already addressed the wings switched 4 spots and gave up a late 2. Not a huge deal. There have been multiple cases of teams trading dead cap. Thomas. Hossa. Dats. Pronger. None cost an arm and a leg.

The NHL does this because they are already supporting dead weight teams that can’t make the floor. The owners would just have to give more revenue to let the yotes make it legitimately. Say they can’t then what? The NHL is going to not let them play?

The NHL does whatever it wants. Lemieux was an owner and player. Which is a violation of the fundamental point of any CBA. Owners/management on one side. Players/talent on the other.

They let a player stay on the payroll and work for player safety. They let Hossa go on LTIR with a skin allergy and they let Z openly admit to circumvention without penalty.

Heck last year we were told that you couldn’t use off season LTIR..... and then we did. It’s all made up.

Bottom line. There are 2 separate issues. Can it happen and will it happen

Will it happen? I don’t know. It all comes down to marleau. If he still wanted to play he can block everything. Even if they had an agreement he can go back on it as it’s not in the contract

Dubas can go nuclear and make him ride the black aces for the marlies if he wants...... but ultimately it is pattys decision

I personally think that there are lots of clues that this is the plan. But we won’t know.

As for can it happen.

Yes. It can. Clearly. If marleau is on board. The leafs can pay him his bonus and trade him to retire somewhere to avoid the hit. It is completely legal and has already happened.

Considering how condescending you were... I kinda thought you had actual proof for your theory.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

As already addressed the wings switched 4 spots and gave up a late 2. Not a huge deal. There have been multiple cases of teams trading dead cap. Thomas. Hossa. Dats. Pronger. None cost an arm and a leg.

The NHL does this because they are already supporting dead weight teams that can’t make the floor. The owners would just have to give more revenue to let the yotes make it legitimately. Say they can’t then what? The NHL is going to not let them play?

The NHL does whatever it wants. Lemieux was an owner and player. Which is a violation of the fundamental point of any CBA. Owners/management on one side. Players/talent on the other.

They let a player stay on the payroll and work for player safety. They let Hossa go on LTIR with a skin allergy and they let Z openly admit to circumvention without penalty.

Heck last year we were told that you couldn’t use off season LTIR..... and then we did. It’s all made up.

Bottom line. There are 2 separate issues. Can it happen and will it happen

Will it happen? I don’t know. It all comes down to marleau. If he still wanted to play he can block everything. Even if they had an agreement he can go back on it as it’s not in the contract

Dubas can go nuclear and make him ride the black aces for the marlies if he wants...... but ultimately it is pattys decision

I personally think that there are lots of clues that this is the plan. But we won’t know.

As for can it happen.

Yes. It can. Clearly. If marleau is on board. The leafs can pay him his bonus and trade him to retire somewhere to avoid the hit. It is completely legal and has already happened.

Considering how condescending you were... I kinda thought you had actual proof for your theory.

We'll have proof when Marleau isn't moved before June 30 because no team is stupid enough to do it. Moving him after June 30 when I've already outlined all of the conditions that have to be met is just Wishful Fan Thinking.

But you do you.

 

[666]

1) Does Dubas have it in him to be such a big meanie?
2) What does this say to the other players and future FA's if Dubas can find it in him to be a big meanie?
3) Marleau still has to waive his NMC.
4) Marleau still has to agree to retire.
5) Which teams actually have the cap space and desire to do this?
6) How high is the price going to be if the Leafs can find a willing team?

You've moved the goalposts pretty far now after posting some inaccuracies. I'm just stating the facts. If Marleau is given a choice to sit in the press box for $1.25M or help the Leafs out he might do it especially after hoisting the cup with the C on his sweater in game 7 against the Flames.