2019-20 Colorado Eagles (AHL) and Utah Grizzlies (ECHL)

[Foppa2118]

The Columbus-Colorado highway never closes!

Not true, I-70 runs through both cities and it closes all the time!

Not when Chris MacFarland's on it. He's the Chuck Norris of I-70.

 

[Richard88]

Timmins lost his secondary assist when the Girard goal was changed to Rantanen, so Timmins didn't get a point.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Timmins lost his secondary assist when the Girard goal was changed to Rantanen, so Timmins didn't get a point.

Hater.

 

[Pokecheque]

I watched the replay of the Rantanen goal, did he really get a piece of that? It looked like it went in off Sammy's backhand to me, but admittedly I didn't watch it from different angles more than once.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I watched the replay of the Rantanen goal, did he really get a piece of that? It looked like it went in off Sammy's backhand to me, but admittedly I didn't watch it from different angles more than once.

Yeah, Rants got a piece of it.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Are we looking at a 2 year timeline on Annunen? One more year in Finland and then a year in the AHL?

 

[henchman21]

Are we looking at a 2 year timeline on Annunen? One more year in Finland and then a year in the AHL?

Probably 3-4.. normally it takes a goalie 2-3 seasons in the AHL before the NHL club is willing to take a chance on the goalie. You can argue it is a year or two late, but that is the norm. So if things go perfectly 23-24.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

LOC has been nothing short of exceptional IMO relative to expectations for him.


I dont know what else he could do to earn a spot on the opening night roster next year. Will suck to see Nieto go as he is a good player, but LOC should take that spot and transition pretty effortlessly into that role.

 

[henchman21]

LOC has been nothing short of exceptional IMO relative to expectations for him.


I dont know what else he could do to earn a spot on the opening night roster next year. Will suck to see Nieto go as he is a good player, but LOC should take that spot and transition pretty effortlessly into that role.

LOC is a real positive sign for the organization in a few ways. Was noticed by the scouts and front office to bring to camp, they liked enough to be aggressive with the signing, and has developed as well as you can expect in Loveland. He's probably at best a 3rd liner, and really a 4th liner long term... but top to bottom there is nothing but good to like about what the org has done there.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

LOC is a real positive sign for the organization in a few ways. Was noticed by the scouts and front office to bring to camp, they liked enough to be aggressive with the signing, and has developed as well as you can expect in Loveland. He's probably at best a 3rd liner, and really a 4th liner long term... but top to bottom there is nothing but good to like about what the org has done there.

Yep, he's probably the single biggest check mark the amateur scouting staff have earned here in a long time. Being able to have internally brought in and developed a future bottom 6 player for the team is something we simply have not been able to do in an uncomfortably long time.


Now if they can do the same with Bowers and Timmins we might finally have the first signs of a truly strong organization from top to bottom.

 

[Pokecheque]

LOC is a real positive sign for the organization in a few ways. Was noticed by the scouts and front office to bring to camp, they liked enough to be aggressive with the signing, and has developed as well as you can expect in Loveland. He's probably at best a 3rd liner, and really a 4th liner long term... but top to bottom there is nothing but good to like about what the org has done there.

Yes, they must get good value depth players like this going forward from within the system, especially with the inevitable cap crunch.

O'Connor is precisely what the Avs need in their bottom six, and he's something they haven't had for a while now. He's big, he's fast, and he plays as mean and physical a game as you can ask for without taking a litany of dumb penalties. Not every forward can be a star or cerebral defensive forward--you need good ol' fashioned bangers too, especially against a team like Dallas, whose physicality defines their approach.

 

[henchman21]

Yep, he's probably the single biggest check mark the amateur scouting staff have earned here in a long time. Being able to have internally brought in and developed a future bottom 6 player for the team is something we simply have not been able to do in an uncomfortably long time.


Now if they can do the same with Bowers and Timmins we might finally have the first signs of a truly strong organization from top to bottom.

I wanna see the guys after the 45th pick start to succeed before I really give the scouts a pass, but this is a positive sign that they might have turned the corner.

The AHL has a few guys to start hanging their hats on, so I think the issues there have at least been lessened. Off the team this year we have higher expectations for Kaut, Timmins, Bowers, and LOC. Reasonable that 2 of them make the NHL full time. Off the 18-19 team, Graves, Frank, and Toninato established themselves as NHLers. The 17-18 Rampage (different coaching staff) had results for other orgs with Grimaldi (Avs property at the time) and Blais (with STL sharing the club). If the AHL team can continue to push this ~2-3 players a year to the NHL, that is about as good as anybody as A prospects tend to skip the whole AHL anyway. That would mean graduating ~3 prospects a year... which would help a ton into the future.

 

[McMetal]

LOC really is a feather in their cap. Never much of a scorer in college, but he transitioned beautifully to the pro game in the AHL and is proving beyond a doubt that he is ready to graduate.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Why does it take signing a 22 year old with 3 years of high level development elsewhere to get someone who can take on this 13th forward energy role?

That’s the common thread in these players. Older and spent longer time in the NCAA or another team’s system and often acquired via trade.

I get that however you supplement your talent pipeline the end goal is to get NHL contributions. But when you turn out players in their mid 20s they are pretty much at their peak, ceiling, are past their ELC years and are looking at arb and UFA in short order.

The question still remains why there seems to be no path for 20 year olds signing from the CHL and still a question if they can routinely insert first round non-top 10 picks into the roster.

 

[S E P H]

Why does it take signing a 22 year old with 3 years of high level development elsewhere to get someone who can take on this 13th forward energy role?

That’s the common thread in these players. Older and spent longer time in the NCAA or another team’s system and often acquired via trade.

I get that however you supplement your talent pipeline the end goal is to get NHL contributions. But when you turn out players in their mid 20s they are pretty much at their peak, ceiling, are past their ELC years and are looking at arb and UFA in short order.

The question still remains why there seems to be no path for 20 year olds signing from the CHL and still a question if they can routinely insert first round non-top 10 picks into the roster.

A suggestion is that our regional CHL scouts suck; Heard, Bourke, Clark, Bigras, S. Martin, Geertsen, Bleackley, Wood, Magyar, Pepin, Meloche, Beaudin, Anderson, Saigeon, and you can probably add Burzan/Greer to that list. That is a lot of rubbish, especially when you consider that our NCAA and European scouts have hit some legit pieces within that time-frame too!

Going back to 2012, the only CHLers we've hit on have been MacKinnon (1st overall), Timmins, Byram, and Mutala. Not even that, but three are still unknown pieces for the NHL and maybe you can add Beaucage into the mix. And it's not like the CHL sucks as a junior league either.

 

[klozge]

A suggestion is that our regional CHL scouts suck; Heard, Bourke, Clark, Bigras, S. Martin, Geertsen, Bleackley, Wood, Magyar, Pepin, Meloche, Beaudin, Anderson, Saigeon, and you can probably add Burzan/Greer to that list. That is a lot of rubbish, especially when you consider that our NCAA and European scouts have hit some legit pieces within that time-frame too!

Going back to 2012, the only CHLers we've hit on have been MacKinnon (1st overall), Timmins, Byram, and Mutala. Not even that, but three are still unknown pieces for the NHL and maybe you can add Beaucage into the mix. And it's not like the CHL sucks as a junior league either.

Okay, now I'm excited about Mutala.

 

[henchman21]

In the past I think there was a clear chicken and egg situation where both scouting and development could reasonably be blamed. Even now we still have to have questions on which is actually working, or if both are trending right. For the first time in maybe a decade or more, the Avs have gotten a trend of graduating a couple players a season out of their AHL. It is the first real positive step we've seen out of either area, and arguably it is one that takes longer to pan out. Even if players have developed elsewhere for a bit, they weren't NHLers prior to being in the Avs' system. They pushed them ahead and into where they are NHLers or ready to graduate. In the case of Graves, an organization completely gave up on him and by his own admission, he wouldn't be in the NHL without the coaching and development he got in Loveland. It isn't the end all, be all, but it is a positive sign. If they can graduate LOC, Kaut, and Timmins next season... they will have a mix of player that they will have developed and graduated. The random undrafted signing, the mid first, and a second round guy. All different levels and a positive sign for each. There will still be more to prove, but those would great signs that development is on the right track. If they can push Bowers and somebody like Mutala or Beaucage down the line, it would be pretty clear that development would no longer be an issue. But that is still a ways off.

I still have my questions about scouting when picks like Saigeon, Stienburg, Burzan, Shamkov, and Miner are still filtering in. Hopefully any of them or Weiss, Ranta, Beaucage, etc can prove that wrong. No team is going to hit all the time late, but the Avs have to actually find some late round guys at some point.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It’s also a big question about opportunity, the older players they bring in get first crack. A guy like Dries who had no business ever playing in the NHL got 45 NHL games for no reason. Guys who can help the AHL squad in some capacity can’t get extrapolated to the NHL because they are 25 years old.

Talent is always part of the equation but I refuse to believe there’s just been nobody they’ve drafted worthy of an opportunity. I’ve been hearing it since 2013 that “now they’ve finally got some talent to work with”. Nick Henry a bunch of people liked, now where is his career going? Mutala will be next and everyone will forget that he was someone who had talent after his first year pro. What does his path look like, how does he become a NHL player before his waiver exemption is up?

Graves was not good in Loveland, he scored only 15 points in over 50 games, wasn’t great defensively and the Avs even waived him at one point. What got him the opportunity? I’m sure age and that he was a new face via trade greatly helped.

These things must be addressed before knowing the system has taken a step forward. I do think their player evaluations have improved but they need an evolution in their approach and implementation.

 

[henchman21]

It’s also a big question about opportunity, the older players they bring in get first crack. A guy like Dries who had no business ever playing in the NHL got 45 NHL games for no reason. Guys who can help the AHL squad in some capacity can’t get extrapolated to the NHL because they are 25 years old.

Talent is always part of the equation but I refuse to believe there’s just been nobody they’ve drafted worthy of an opportunity. I’ve been hearing it since 2013 that “now they’ve finally got some talent to work with”. Nick Henry a bunch of people liked, now where is his career going? Mutala will be next and everyone will forget that he was someone who had talent after his first year pro. What does his path look like, how does he become a NHL player before his waiver exemption is up?

These things must be addressed before knowing the system has taken a step forward. I do think their player evaluations have improved but they need an evolution in their approach and implementation.

Dries was fine last year, I wouldn't say he had no business in the NHL... but he's a typical 15th forward on teams. Also like Tynan here. All teams have those guys. Even with Dries, has there been a forward that hasn't gotten a look? Kaut got games at the end of the year, LOC has shown well, and Bowers needed the full year. You could argue Greer, but he clearly wore out his welcome with Bednar and had chances before. On defense, Timmins has gotten a look, Graves became a NHLer, Lindholm has gotten (too many) looks... so basically at Meloche. Which I'd concede is a guy who should have found a way and failed.

Fans always overrate their own prospects... they've done it since the beginning of time and will do it until the end. We are all guilty of it and don't make a living working for a NHL team, so our opinions shouldn't hold the weight on if there is actual NHL talent in these players. In 2 years people will cry about development on Mutala and Beaucage... but neither are legit NHL prospects. I would personally write those expectations off right now. Beaucage can't skate worth a lick and that will get exposed right away in professional hockey. Then there just isn't enough in Mutala's game to a NHL forward. I do think he will get some chances and be a solid AHL guy... but he's not NHL caliber. Stienburg might have a chance as a 4th line guy. The 2019 draft will be looked back upon as favorably since the Avs had 2 firsts that will be NHL players, but getting a 3rd is a bit of an uphill climb and 4 is very unlikely.

 

[S E P H]

In the past I think there was a clear chicken and egg situation where both scouting and development could reasonably be blamed. Even now we still have to have questions on which is actually working, or if both are trending right. For the first time in maybe a decade or more, the Avs have gotten a trend of graduating a couple players a season out of their AHL.

I would say that different reasons resulted in different players failing. Some of it was development, while some it was a lack of talent by overvaluation from certain scouts eye. I see it as this personally...

Heard: Clearly lack of talent
Bourke: Lack of development
Clark: Lack of talent
Bigras: Was afraid of being hit
Martin: Lack of talent (wasn't a huge miss though)
Geertsen: Lack of skating ability
Bleackley: Big time character issues
Wood: Lack of skating ability
Magyar: Lack of talent (with injury history)
Pepin: Fat
Meloche: Lack of development
Beaudin: Was afraid of being hit
Anderson: Lack of talent
Saigeon: Lack of talent
Burzan: Lack of consistency, gamble pick

Graves was not good in Loveland, he scored only 15 points in over 50 games, wasn’t great defensively and the Avs even waived him at one point. What got him the opportunity? I’m sure age and that he was a new face via trade greatly helped.

I wouldn't say that's the case because Shattenkirk was pointless in ten straight AHL games, he was recalled and then I believe tied the rookie amount of straight games with a point in NHL history. I think it comes down to certain aspects like connection (O'Connor), opportunity (Graves via trade), view from organisation (1st round pick), form (Dries), age (Tynan), and just straight up give him a chance (Greer).

The problem is you have players fighting each other in each category to try and make their dream. Furthermore, the percentage to make the NHL is quite low and you just have players after players who are clumped together normally vying for at least two to three positions every year. When you have like 25 blokes going for three positions there are inevitable and consistent cuts where 7th rounders get cut first, then 5th, 3rds, and players drafted in the top 60 tend to get the most leeway because that's how the organisation views them in their depth charts. I understand that this isn't fair, but hockey isn't the only sport to have this type of mind-frame, I would suggest that almost every sport does it. For example, Arsenal had a Korean player named Park Chu-young that they signed in 2011. In two seasons under Arsenal he only played one game, one game in at least 50-ish match campaign. Then after the two seasons, Arsenal loaned him out to two different teams in two different seasons where he played 22 for Celta in Spain and 2 for Watford in England's AHL. So he was under Arsenal's pay roll for four seasons and only played one freakin' game.

 

[henchman21]

I would say that different reasons resulted in different players failing. Some of it was development, while some it was a lack of talent by overvaluation from certain scouts eye. I see it as this personally...

Heard: Clearly lack of talent
Bourke: Lack of development
Clark: Lack of talent
Bigras: Was afraid of being hit
Martin: Lack of talent (wasn't a huge miss though)
Geertsen: Lack of skating ability
Bleackley: Big time character issues
Wood: Lack of skating ability
Magyar: Lack of talent (with injury history)
Pepin: Fat
Meloche: Lack of development
Beaudin: Was afraid of being hit
Anderson: Lack of talent
Saigeon: Lack of talent
Burzan: Lack of consistency, gamble pick

The ones I have the most issues with development are Bigras, Meloche, Elliott, and Beaudin. After Bigras had his concussion, he was never the same again... and that was too much a part of his game. I wouldn't say that is directly development based as much as just pure bad luck. Elliott, with all of his tools, should have been a NHLer and a damn good one... but soft and nobody could get that out of his game. Sad because his skill set was so damn good. They couldn't get Meloche to be consistent enough to gain enough minutes. Again I think there was physical tools there to make something of him and they couldn't press the right buttons. I think Beaudin is an interesting case... he's too soft and won't be a dirty area player which basically makes him top 6 or bust while not having top 6 talent. But if there is an opportunity argument, Beaudin is a good example. He's always been a player you have to let get comfortable and deal with growing pains while his game adapts. If that doesn't happen, he doesn't adapt and isn't going to make it. Any names beyond them, I have issues blaming it on development. Even if you get 10 players that have legit NHL talent, you'll have issues getting more than 2-3 in the show full time. It is a tough league and a tough step.

I do find the skating one with Geertsen kinda funny. I remember hearing people rave about how good it was in drills and how perfect his skating was... then in games he looked like he was skating in mud. If there is ever a big red flag on skating, it is somebody who is technically great to near perfect (as Geertsen was) but sucks in games. Jost has a very similar issue.

 

[Pokecheque]

It’s also a big question about opportunity, the older players they bring in get first crack. A guy like Dries who had no business ever playing in the NHL got 45 NHL games for no reason. Guys who can help the AHL squad in some capacity can’t get extrapolated to the NHL because they are 25 years old.

Talent is always part of the equation but I refuse to believe there’s just been nobody they’ve drafted worthy of an opportunity. I’ve been hearing it since 2013 that “now they’ve finally got some talent to work with”. Nick Henry a bunch of people liked, now where is his career going? Mutala will be next and everyone will forget that he was someone who had talent after his first year pro. What does his path look like, how does he become a NHL player before his waiver exemption is up?

Graves was not good in Loveland, he scored only 15 points in over 50 games, wasn’t great defensively and the Avs even waived him at one point. What got him the opportunity? I’m sure age and that he was a new face via trade greatly helped.

These things must be addressed before knowing the system has taken a step forward. I do think their player evaluations have improved but they need an evolution in their approach and implementation.

Yeah I'm not quite with you on this one. Who was the guy in Loveland last season who should've gotten the nod over Dries? I'm not like a huge fan of his or anything but what good does it do for a prospect to show up and play 5 minutes a night and some scrub PK duty? Dries got the nod precisely because he was the tweener forward they wanted in that 14/15 spot in the depth chart. Also, and I'll keep saying this until people listen--he was far better on the PK at anticipating the play and getting his stick into passing lanes to disrupt passes than any of the other guys they used last season. And I'll also add that whatever NHL window he possessed last season has definitely closed, and that's fine. He served an even greater purpose being a vet on the AHL club that wanted to enter the league as a winner. Whether that helped or hurt development of prospects can be debated but so far it appears to be working.

I don't buy that this team, one of the youngest in the league, has a huge veteran bias. Not under the current brain trust. Timmins is in, and Kaut played meaningful minutes and made an impact in his short stint with the club. O'Connor is in. All three of those guys, and Byram, have a very good chance of making next season's roster. I think those are all good indicators. Does it forgive past transgressions? Well, no, but maybe they really are learning from their previous mistakes. Time will tell.

Not gonna sit here and say I'm drinking the Kool-Aid and suddenly think the Avs have figured the draft/development part of the game, but I think they're moving in the right direction, however small. Still way more skeptical of drafting than I am development at this point.

I think Graves got the nod out of necessity--they just didn't really have anyone else at the time IIRC. He took his opportunity and ran with it. He was also quite lucky when he first entered the NHL, and since then got to play alongside the team's best defenseman. Still, it came straight outta his mouth that a stern talking-to from Cronin was what got his career back on track. So that counts for something at least.

Mind you, I don't love how players like Shvyryov and Henry have been handled, but I'm still in wait-and-see mode on the latter. Igor may have just been a bad pick. Saigeon was definitely a bad pick, not sure if that one's salvageable. They have to improve the drafting or all these resources they're allocating for development will be wasted.

 

[henchman21]

Mind you, I don't love how players like Shvyryov and Henry have been handled, but I'm still in wait-and-see mode on the latter. Igor may have just been a bad pick. Saigeon was definitely a bad pick, not sure if that one's salvageable. They have to improve the drafting or all these resources they're allocating for development will be wasted.

Henry just isn't a good hockey player. When you're 5'11" and can't skate, you're going to have a lot of problems in NA professionally. Add to that just average talent beyond his shot, there isn't a NHL player there... maybe not even an AHL player. Shvy pure and simple is small ice transition. Big ice hides a lot of flaws and they became very evident. His puck skill and effort was there, but janky skating and much lower IQ than I thought doomed him.

My single biggest issue with the Avs' scouting is that they can't seem to figure out how to evaluate skating worth a damn. They are all over the place with it and they have to be on the thought pattern that they can fix most any stride.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Last season Dries had 46% Corsi For, 43% expected goals for, was on the ice 9 goals for and 16 against. This season Dries had 39% Corsi For, 31% expected goals for and was on the ice for 2 goals against none for. That’s not a NHL player.

Part of the problem is there’s no path for the non top 40 picks. They sit on the bench, 4th line and the ECHL so that they are never close to having an opportunity. The waiver exemption comes up in 3 years regardless.

Which leads to...speaking of Beaudin he played 22 games for Ottawa which yeah I get it’s Ottawa and much easier to give an opportunity but I watched at least half those games he was in and he fit in as a 4C. He was a lot more physical and recorded 51 hits, he was actually good at faceoffs and when he played helped Ottawa during their best stretch of play during the year. Throwing away third year pros is how you don’t have anyone available for an opportunity. So again back to the main point, there’s a very fine line between finding use for these types of players and turning to outside solutions.

If they get Kaut and Timmins at the very least into regular NHL roles next season then yes I’d call that progress but it still needs to happen.

 

[henchman21]

If we are basing NHLness off corsi... Beaudin had the 2nd worst amongst Ottawa forwards only bested by Namestnikov. He was terrible.Dries is far from good, but he can take a shift. Beaudin was in the NHL to keep Norris and Brown in the minors instead of 4th line duty.