2018 UEFA Nations League

[hatterson]

England just do not have the technical ability and general skill to be a team who insists on playing the ball out of the back. Undone twice in similar fashion.

Their keeper doesn't have good short distribution skills, their CBs have a propensity to get lead feet, Walker is gutter trash, and Chilwell might get there some day but isn't yet. Even with TAA in for Walker, playing out of the back still isn't a strength as TAA is much better when moving in space and with pace as opposed to trying to pass in a triangle for 2 minutes before you see an opening in midfield.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

lol

 

[Ceremony]

50 million for John Stones was it? I've seen players with more nous on the ball in the Juniors.

 

[Nickmo82]

With grace under pressure and calm, confident decision making like that, John Stones should consider a career in British politics once he's done with football.

 

[gary69]

Promes is actually really good. His underlying stats at Sevilla this season too were really nice despite his lack of usage.

Yeah, he was good choice to bring on at that stage. Should get a starting spot in the final.

 

[Power Man]

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

That might be the tweet of the year.

 

[YNWA14]

So despite his petulance Memphis created a bunch of turnovers with his pressing (including the go ahead goal), had 2 assists, created 6 chances for others and had 10 shots. He's whiny, but he's certainly a competitor and far from lazy. The talent is also indisputable.

 

[Evilo]

This is exactly why you shouldn't look at a stat sheet to determine a guy's game.
I didn't watch the full 120 minutes, but from what I saw, he was hardly good in that game.

 

[YNWA14]

This is exactly why you shouldn't look at a stat sheet to determine a guy's game.
I didn't watch the full 120 minutes, but from what I saw, he was hardly good in that game.

No I don't think he had his best game, as he had a few poor moments, but he also had some really good moments. Not a spectacular game by his standards but there are always bias, expectations, etc. that make the eye test unreliable at times too. In the end he was key in bringing the win home for the Netherlands, despite not being at the top of his game.

Despite what is thought of him he was instrumental in all 3 Dutch goals:

- Put in a perfect corner onto de Ligt's head
- Won the ball from Stones which created the sequence Promes scores (own goal I guess) on
- Laid the ball off to Promes when he could have shot for a wide open net goal

Almost every dangerous attack involved Memphis (though I actually thought Bergwijn was better on the night overall he just isn't on the same level of danger ATM in terms of lethality).

 

[Evilo]

The eye test is always reliable.

 

[YNWA14]

The eye test is always reliable.

It's not, actually. Confirmation bias, tunnel vision, etc. there are so many factors that make it unreliable at times that stats can disprove or have a bigger picture. Especially when you want to see something, or are looking for something.

 

[Evilo]

Haha, no, your interpretation of stats make your bias.
Stats never tell the whole story and can never replace the eye test.
Otherwise scouts wouldn't exist.

Campos sleeps in airports in order to see a max number of games. There's a reason for that.

 

[YNWA14]

Haha, no, your interpretation of stats make your bias.
Stats never tell the whole story and can never replace the eye test.
Otherwise scouts wouldn't exist.

Campos sleeps in airports in order to see a max number of games. There's a reason for that.

I never said that stats tell the whole story either, nor did I say they should replace the eye test. However if you think the eye test is 'always reliable', and that stats are not a great way of supplementing 'scouting' or watching then I can't really help you there. There's a reason that the biggest teams have started investing heavily in analytics.

Bias and the way you watch the game certainly heavily influences what you see, or want to see. Some people (Campos for example) know what they're looking for and are probably more objective than most.

 

[Evilo]

Analytics have nothing to do with the stats you provided.
You said stats can disaprove the eye test. This is what I disagreed on.

 

[Ajacied]

I still laugh at anyone who feels de Jong isn't elite yet. He's been the best player in about 90% of the games he's played. And that includes France, Germany, England, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc. Top 5 midfielder already.

 

[les Habs]

I still laugh at anyone who feels de Jong isn't elite yet. He's been the best player in about 90% of the games he's played. And that includes France, Germany, England, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc. Top 5 midfielder already.

He's underrated on this forum and I agree.

 

[YNWA14]

I still laugh at anyone who feels de Jong isn't elite yet. He's been the best player in about 90% of the games he's played. And that includes France, Germany, England, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc. Top 5 midfielder already.

No he hasn't. This is an example of 'seeing what you want to see'. I'm a big fan but this is just inaccurate. He was very average against Benfica, essentially non-existent in the Germany game we needed to get a point to win the group (thank Promes and van Dijk), he was terrible at home vs. Bayern, pretty average over two legs vs Real Madrid, and he was outplayed by Sissoko over two legs vs. Spurs, etc. Juventus has Pjanic and a bunch of pylons and he still didn't stand out anywhere near the best player on the field. The heroes of that Ajax run were de Ligt, Ziyech and Tadic, though obviously de Jong was a positive contributor in a lot of ways, and definitely had his moments of brilliance. He definitely wasn't the best player last night either so I don't know where that came from.

I'm definitely interested to see how he does at Barcelona because they can be a lot less forgiving of games like the one he had vs. Bayern and play a lot more consistently against teams that will capitalize on his flaws. I think he has the talent and footballing brain to adjust and fix the holes in his game but right now he's a very good midfielder with potential to be one of the best. He isn't there yet.

 

[les Habs]

He was very good against Madrid in the second leg, excellent in the first leg against Juventus, excellent in the first leg against Spurs and while I've only seen highlights of the England match I read he was given Man of the Match.

 

[YNWA14]

He was very good against Madrid in the second leg, excellent in the first leg against Juventus, excellent in the first leg against Spurs and while I've only seen highlights of the England match I read he was given Man of the Match.

There are a lot of very good players in these games; he wasn't the best is all, and there were a lot of matches included there where he wasn't even among the best players in the game. Again, very good player already but no, not a top 5 midfielder in the world. Does he have the talent to be? Yes, but I've watched a lot of de Jong and I really think there are a few things in his game that he will need to overcome once he makes the move to Barcelona (and I think he can).

Maybe he makes the adjustments over the summer and comes out flying too though. The talent is certainly there. I'm just saying based on what he's already shown he isn't already in that group.

 

[les Habs]

For starters, you said he was "average" before, not "very good". There are also a lot of midfielders who often aren't among the best players in the match right now either. That's how it is with that position right now and hence his being there in the top 5. I'd say the top 5 is arguable and he doesn't have the body of work other players have because of his age, but at this stage I'd say he is.

 

[YNWA14]

For starters, you said he was "average" before, not "very good". There are also a lot of midfielders who often aren't among the best players in the match right now either. That's how it is with that position right now and hence his being there in the top 5. I'd say the top 5 is arguable and he doesn't have the body of work other players have because of his age, but at this stage I'd say he is.

I said average 'over two legs' and that he was outplayed by Sissoko. Which he was.

 

[les Habs]

I was referring to the Madrid tie where you called him "average" as well. And if someone has an excellent first leg then I wouldn't refer to him as "average" when describing the tie.

 

[Ajacied]

YNWA is just sour he didn't get Frenkie in this draft. Or else he would be raving about him like no tomorrow.

Top 5 midfielder, easily.

 

[YNWA14]

YNWA is just sour he didn't get Frenkie in this draft. Or else he would be raving about him like no tomorrow.

Top 5 midfielder, easily.

If I thought that highly of him wouldn't I have just picked him?

I've spoken on him plenty before. I've never said he was even a top 10 midfielder already (in fact I've previously even said he's not the best Dutch midfielder).