Post-Game Talk: 2018 Stanley Cup Champions @ Mojo's zone entries 7:07PM

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Bieronymus Trotz

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Sep 4, 2017
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The evidence is that they turned Dow teams that wanted to hire him in the past.
That happened before the 2017-2018 playoffs, so it can't possibly be evidence he was making the tactical decisions in the 2017-2018 playoffs. Neither thing is. They're both evidence the organization liked him a lot, presumably in part because of his tactical ability, but not at all that he was running the show in the playoffs.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,433
14,292
All this being said, maaco defends Trotz for the same reason he defends Holtby, Bowey, and Stephenson while criticizing guys like Reirden, Grubauer, Djoos, and Vrana: he loves Western Canadians. It's incredibly easy to see and that's been his gimmick since the day he's started posting here.

Yeah, but that doesn't explain his love of Backstrom.

It's not regional, he just values defense way way WAY more than anything else, and once a player hits his "bad defense" list any lapse sticks out like a sore thumb due to confirmation bias.

Somewhere along the line he played for a coach that preached 2-way play as the holy grail, I'm guessing. I get it. It's old school thinking, though. The league has changed. Role players exist and offense is much more individualistic (though not always or completely).

Think of all the NBA fans who constantly complain about traveling and want to see Bob Cousy puttering around the court making fundamentally sound passes to guys taking set shots. Or the ones who just hate the NBA because "nobody plays defense" and "it's all street ball and 3 pointers". Same basic thing. Times change.
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
34,639
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/thread
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,625
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Yeah, but that doesn't explain his love of Backstrom.

It's not regional, he just values defense way way WAY more than anything else, and once a player hits his "bad defense" list any lapse sticks out like a sore thumb due to confirmation bias.

Somewhere along the line he played for a coach that preached 2-way play as the holy grail, I'm guessing. I get it. It's old school thinking, though. The league has changed. Role players exist and offense is much more individualistic (though not always or completely).

Think of all the NBA fans who constantly complain about traveling and want to see Bob Cousy puttering around the court making fundamentally sound passes to guys taking set shots. Or the ones who just hate the NBA because "nobody plays defense" and "it's all street ball and 3 pointers". Same basic thing. Times change.

You're certainly right, he does mention "bad defense" way too often.

I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B. Bowey is a wreck in his own zone but he gets a pass for it while Djoos, who is better, gets hammered by maaco all the time. On the other side, Niskanen is and has been their stoutest defensive player and gets ragged on constantly for no good reason.

In summary, @maacoshark is a land of contrasts.

Also this is what I thought of this morning about his rant:

upload_2018-10-12_14-37-25.jpeg
 

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
21,816
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That happened before the 2017-2018 playoffs, so it can't possibly be evidence he was making the tactical decisions in the 2017-2018 playoffs. Neither thing is. They're both evidence the organization liked him a lot, presumably in part because of his tactical ability, but not at all that he was running the show in the playoffs.
I asked this if Maaco (he ignored the question) and now I ask you:

Do you really believe that BMac watched the run to the Cup and then chose the guy who had less to do with it? In other words: if BT was the primary architect of the championship, does GMBM strike you as the kind of guy to say “whatever, still want this other dude”? He doesn’t seem like that guy to me. He seems like the kind of manager who negotiates an extension with Trotz in that scenario because his job now is to defend the Cup.
 

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
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There's nothing wrong with being a Trotz fan. I'm a Trotz fan, despite the fact that I thought his time was up towards the end of last regular season. I think the Islanders are going to do better than expected because Trotz is a very good head coach (who has some warts).

Even if Reirden was the guy who took over the tactical side of things come last postseason Trotz was still the head coach and authored 4 incredibly successful years in DC. No doubt he was given an excellent roster but that doesn't mean that he didn't do a good job himself. As far as I'm concerned he's a Capitals legend.

All this being said, maaco defends Trotz for the same reason he defends Holtby, Bowey, and Stephenson while criticizing guys like Reirden, Grubauer, Djoos, and Vrana: he loves Western Canadians. It's incredibly easy to see and that's been his gimmick since the day he's started posting here.
I never really thought of those guys being from western Canada. That argument really doesnt hold water since my favorite Cap is Backstrom. I also like Kuzy, Carlson, Orlov and Wilson. As for the guys you mentioned that I criticize I dont really dislike any of them but if there is something about their game that isn't up to par I'll say it. I think Vrana has a lot of potential. He needs to work on parts of his game but I think he is improving. A bit inconsistent. I hope he isn't Burakovsky part 2. Djoos is another guy I dont mind. He needs to add some muscle though. Grubauer, well he was a back up goalie for us that got on a hot streak but came back down to earth in the playoffs. And BTW he is still a backup in Colorado. He has a chance to get that job when Varlomov gets injured. And Reirden. Its not really about Reirden. Its more about losing Trotz. I think we lost a hell of a coach. Time will tell how Reirden ius as a coach. The only Cap I actually dislike is Niskanen. That started when he was with the Pens. Another reason is that I think he is overrated by Caps fans. The one poster used he plus/minus stat to defend him. Ya he was plus 1 against Vegas because of an empty net goal. People dont look at those situations. Niskanen gets a lot of pluses on empty net goals we score. Then a player like Carlson is always on the ice when we give up an empty net goal which kills his plus/minus. Its not a very accurate stat. I'm not saying Niskanen isn't a good dman but he is far from one of the best. The way he is playing this season he might only be our 4th best.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,433
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I never really thought of those guys being from western Canada. That argument really doesnt hold water since my favorite Cap is Backstrom. I also like Kuzy, Carlson, Orlov and Wilson. As for the guys you mentioned that I criticize I dont really dislike any of them but if there is something about their game that isn't up to par I'll say it. I think Vrana has a lot of potential. He needs to work on parts of his game but I think he is improving. A bit inconsistent. I hope he isn't Burakovsky part 2. Djoos is another guy I dont mind. He needs to add some muscle though. Grubauer, well he was a back up goalie for us that got on a hot streak but came back down to earth in the playoffs. And BTW he is still a backup in Colorado. He has a chance to get that job when Varlomov gets injured. And Reirden. Its not really about Reirden. Its more about losing Trotz. I think we lost a hell of a coach. Time will tell how Reirden ius as a coach. The only Cap I actually dislike is Niskanen. That started when he was with the Pens. Another reason is that I think he is overrated by Caps fans. The one poster used he plus/minus stat to defend him. Ya he was plus 1 against Vegas because of an empty net goal. People dont look at those situations. Niskanen gets a lot of pluses on empty net goals we score. Then a player like Carlson is always on the ice when we give up an empty net goal which kills his plus/minus. Its not a very accurate stat. I'm not saying Niskanen isn't a good dman but he is far from one of the best. The way he is playing this season he might only be our 4th best.


Empty net goals? That's the difference?

Empty Net Performance stats for NHL teams

The Caps allowed 12 ENGs last year and scored 4. That's it. Out of 256 GF and 238 GA.

So how much of an impact do you really think ENGs are having on those stats for those two players?

And while we're talking defense, the Caps GA last season placed them 16th in the league. Very average for a defensive juggernaut.
 

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
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I asked this if Maaco (he ignored the question) and now I ask you:

Do you really believe that BMac watched the run to the Cup and then chose the guy who had less to do with it? In other words: if BT was the primary architect of the championship, does GMBM strike you as the kind of guy to say “whatever, still want this other dude”? He doesn’t seem like that guy to me. He seems like the kind of manager who negotiates an extension with Trotz in that scenario because his job now is to defend the Cup.
I didnt see the question. This is all speculation but I think the writing was on the wall the season for Trotz. First the Caps didnt allow teams to talk to Reirden which made it very obvious they were grooming him to be the next head coach. Twice last season Trotz was going to get fired if the team lost their next game. I think one of those was in San Jose, not sure about the other. Anyway we ended up winning both of those games and finished the season strong. But it sure looked like they were attempting to get Reirden in last year. Why else would you fire your coach in our situation? Once the regular season ended management decided to just let his contract expire and then hire Reirden. Only problem was we won the cup which gave Trotz an additional 2 years. I dont think management expect us to win.
Trotz decided to resign instead of accept their offer. It was probably his best option. Management wanted Reirden in and I'm sure that had Trotz stayed he would have been fired soon into the new season. There was already rumors that Trotz had told people that he wouldnt be back with the Caps even before they won the cup. I think the main reason Trotz left was because of job security. He was pretty much forced out of town. Can't blame Trotz.
 

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
9,629
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Empty net goals? That's the difference?

Empty Net Performance stats for NHL teams

The Caps allowed 12 ENGs last year and scored 4. That's it. Out of 256 GF and 238 GA.

So how much of an impact do you really think ENGs are having on those stats for those two players?

And while we're talking defense, the Caps GA last season placed them 16th in the league. Very average for a defensive juggernaut.
Yes and as I stated before Reirden was given complete control of the defense and pk last season. And that is a fact.
In the playoffs we went back to a more defensive game. Not sure if that was Trotz or Reirden.
 

Silky mitts

It’s yours boys and girls and babes let’s go!
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As a Caps fan every year the fact the regular season success barely correlates to postseason success is hammered home and regular season wins mean less and less, and I can’t wrap my mind around the concept of getting even mildly upset about a Caps loss the 1st 82 games after they won the Cup.
 

Calicaps

NFA
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I didnt see the question. This is all speculation but I think the writing was on the wall the season for Trotz. First the Caps didnt allow teams to talk to Reirden which made it very obvious they were grooming him to be the next head coach. Twice last season Trotz was going to get fired if the team lost their next game. I think one of those was in San Jose, not sure about the other. Anyway we ended up winning both of those games and finished the season strong. But it sure looked like they were attempting to get Reirden in last year. Why else would you fire your coach in our situation? Once the regular season ended management decided to just let his contract expire and then hire Reirden. Only problem was we won the cup which gave Trotz an additional 2 years. I dont think management expect us to win.
Trotz decided to resign instead of accept their offer. It was probably his best option. Management wanted Reirden in and I'm sure that had Trotz stayed he would have been fired soon into the new season. There was already rumors that Trotz had told people that he wouldnt be back with the Caps even before they won the cup. I think the main reason Trotz left was because of job security. He was pretty much forced out of town. Can't blame Trotz.
You ignored the question. I'm saying AFTER they won a Cup, do you believe that if BMac saw Trotz as the architect of that championship that he would not have changed course to keep that architect?
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
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New Bern, NC
That happened before the 2017-2018 playoffs, so it can't possibly be evidence he was making the tactical decisions in the 2017-2018 playoffs. Neither thing is. They're both evidence the organization liked him a lot, presumably in part because of his tactical ability, but not at all that he was running the show in the playoffs.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

Registered User
Sep 4, 2017
547
424
I asked this if Maaco (he ignored the question) and now I ask you:

Do you really believe that BMac watched the run to the Cup and then chose the guy who had less to do with it? In other words: if BT was the primary architect of the championship, does GMBM strike you as the kind of guy to say “whatever, still want this other dude”? He doesn’t seem like that guy to me. He seems like the kind of manager who negotiates an extension with Trotz in that scenario because his job now is to defend the Cup.
If you take him at his own words, GMBM did try to keep Trotz and didn't have the budget to do so. Anyway, it's well established that he was grooming Reirden and was comfortable with Reirden, so yes, he does strike me as the kind of guy to be perfectly fine with Reirden in that scenario (not to mention it's not as if Reirden isn't aware of what the team was doing in the playoffs; Trotz doesn't have secret magic he suddenly discovered).

The bottom line is that the default interpretation is that the guy who was in charge was actually in charge. To arrive at another interpretation we need evidence leading to it, and we don't have any; all we have is conjecture and a rumor that, if I remember correctly, surfaced in a newspaper in Russia. An assistant coach overruling the head coach is a pretty out-there scenario. We'd need actual reason to believe it to be true.
 

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
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You ignored the question. I'm saying AFTER they won a Cup, do you believe that if BMac saw Trotz as the architect of that championship that he would not have changed course to keep that architect?
I guess you didnt really read was I said. I think GMBM had already made his decision long ago and winning the cup wasnt going to change it. I think he put himself in a bad position. He didnt allow teams to talk to Reirden so everyone knew he was going to be the new coach. How does he tell Reirden that we are keeping Trotz after not letting other teams talk to him about a head coaching job? Sorry but we f***ed you. It may have been better for GMBM if he had fired Trotz during the season. Then there wouldnt be an issue and we wouldnt be having this discussion right now. We may not have won the cup either. For all we know we may not have even made the playoffs.
Atleast Trotz left on his terms without any had feelings that we know of. He got a new gig and he let Reirden get promoted. Trotz didn't have to do that. He could have stayed.
 

Calicaps

NFA
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If you take him at his own words, GMBM did try to keep Trotz and didn't have the budget to do so. Anyway, it's well established that he was grooming Reirden and was comfortable with Reirden, so yes, he does strike me as the kind of guy to be perfectly fine with Reirden in that scenario (not to mention it's not as if Reirden isn't aware of what the team was doing in the playoffs; Trotz doesn't have secret magic he suddenly discovered).

The bottom line is that the default interpretation is that the guy who was in charge was actually in charge. To arrive at another interpretation we need evidence leading to it, and we don't have any; all we have is conjecture and a rumor that, if I remember correctly, surfaced in a newspaper in Russia. An assistant coach overruling the head coach is a pretty out-there scenario. We'd need actual reason to believe it to be true.

I guess you didnt really read was I said. I think GMBM had already made his decision long ago and winning the cup wasnt going to change it. I think he put himself in a bad position. He didnt allow teams to talk to Reirden so everyone knew he was going to be the new coach. How does he tell Reirden that we are keeping Trotz after not letting other teams talk to him about a head coaching job? Sorry but we ****ed you. It may have been better for GMBM if he had fired Trotz during the season. Then there wouldnt be an issue and we wouldnt be having this discussion right now. We may not have won the cup either. For all we know we may not have even made the playoffs.
Atleast Trotz left on his terms without any had feelings that we know of. He got a new gig and he let Reirden get promoted. Trotz didn't have to do that. He could have stayed.

So the answer from both of you is "Yes." You think BMac chose the guy who was less responsible for the Cup. OK.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

Registered User
Sep 4, 2017
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424
So the answer from both of you is "Yes." You think BMac chose the guy who was less responsible for the Cup. OK.
This argument is total nonsense and you know it. I'd love for it to be true -- it certainly would bode well for the team and I like Reirden better than Trotz -- but I can't reach the conclusion based on nothing.
 

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
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This argument is total nonsense and you know it. I'd love for it to be true -- it certainly would bode well for the team and I like Reirden better than Trotz -- but I can't reach the conclusion based on nothing.
It's really not. I think BMac did what he thought was best for the team's chances to repeat. And I assume that's keeping the guy who had a bigger hand in making it happen. The basis for that is GMBM's track record of excellence.
 
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Silky mitts

It’s yours boys and girls and babes let’s go!
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I don't know about that, the team has historically been cheap with its coaching budget under Ted.
I don’t think Ted values coaches to a point where it would be possible to view a coach to be the primary architect, if it’s phrased primary architect maybe Ted would say it was Mahoney
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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I don't know about that, the team has historically been cheap with its coaching budget under Ted.
Not sure if it's Ted or Dick Patrick, but someone in the front office has been stingey with the coaching pursestrings.

One of the biggest credits I give McPhee is that he persuaded Ted/Patrick to expand the scouting budget in the early 2000s. Combined with bringing in Mahoney, that has paid dividends. Curious to see if the same will happen with the coaching staff going forwards.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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Yeah, but that doesn't explain his love of Backstrom.

It's not regional, he just values defense way way WAY more than anything else, and once a player hits his "bad defense" list any lapse sticks out like a sore thumb due to confirmation bias.

Somewhere along the line he played for a coach that preached 2-way play as the holy grail, I'm guessing. I get it. It's old school thinking, though. The league has changed. Role players exist and offense is much more individualistic (though not always or completely).

Think of all the NBA fans who constantly complain about traveling and want to see Bob Cousy puttering around the court making fundamentally sound passes to guys taking set shots. Or the ones who just hate the NBA because "nobody plays defense" and "it's all street ball and 3 pointers". Same basic thing. Times change.

So to summarize, the game has passed Maaco by....
 
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CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
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Do we really feel Trotz’s rate/term demands played no part in the decision?

He got an auto raise with the Cup. He wanted astronomically more, so sure that contributed, but I believe the decision to move on from Barry was made well before the Cup win.

I don’t think it ever got to the point where someone like Leonsis pushed back on what Barry ended up signing for.
 
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