Ryp37
Registered User
- Nov 6, 2011
- 7,525
- 1,081
You've been repeating yourself for months
You're still wrong.
Fair, worded it wrong.
And it'll be glorious until they're swept.
Prospect Info: 2018 Prospects Thread
- Thread starter VanJack
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You've been repeating yourself for months
You're still wrong.
Fair, worded it wrong.
And it'll be glorious until they're swept.
Well no shit, look where Shinkaruk was drafted compared to Pettersson and Hughes.
People need to get over the delusion that Benning can find a home run anywhere. So far he’s whiffed on a 6th, 24th, and 5th. He’s scored on a 23rd, and looks good on a 5th and 7th.
That’s 50/50 on 6 picks, 4 of which were top 7 picks.
pgj98m3
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2012
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True better chances but what about after the 1st round? I was a big supporter of Gillis but the drafting by him was terrible with what we know now.
Look no doubt the drafting during Gillis’ time here blew goats but I’m also wary of anointing Demko, Gaudette, Lind, etc anything special until they are actually in the NHL. We’ve had exciting prospects before only to see them fade away as they transition from jr to AHL and then again from AHL to NHL. It’s like some people are slow to learn that lesson and every new 17,18,19 year old is a definite NHLer while all the previous ones get forgotten about.
krutovsdonut
eeyore
- Sep 25, 2016
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uh, if mccann is a whiff then what the hell is gaunce?
i'm not sure that going deep into the count counts as a whiff. they are still at bat.
Gaunce is a whiff for sure, but no one is calling Gillis a drafting genius or whatever superlatives were being hurled at Benning in this last conversation.
skyo
Benning Squad
I honestly can't understand how thoughts are processed in adolescent minds?
How can one completely overlook facts and the obvious to come up with a conclusion?
FOR REAL, over the last 5 years, this franchise has picked in the top 10 and you can't compare that to picks in the late 20s.
FOR DOUBLE REAL (Not sure if teens use this term?), most of benning's 2nd round picks would be equal (very close) to picks in the late 20s...his 3rd rounds close to late 2nd round picks, etc.
I would expect better draft results regardless! Anyone on hf could have similar or better results with Brackett by their side.
What you seem to overlook is our opportunity costs...
This franchise should have a shlt ton more prospects in the pool and more than 2 f'n players in the NHL after this many years...FOR TRIPLE REAL! 《--- did I do this right adding triple, should I say trips or do you get the point?
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Gillis' 2nd round picks were equal to 3rd rounders...etc.
His drafting wasn't great but there was improvement (he was working on it) and I believe the majority thought 2013 was a win at the time...especially with getting Bo.
Josepho
i want the bartkowski thread back
McCann has been fine for a 24th overall pick.
Trading him was the dumb part
Trading him was the dumb part
petrishriekandgo
Why not us?
krutovsdonut
eeyore
- Sep 25, 2016
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- 9,491
i don't agree that gaunce or mccann is a whiff. the only recent first rounder who was a whiff is shinkaruk.
i agree these guys are not home runs, but in between a whiff and a home run are several types of hits. your standard of reviewing draft picks seems unrealistic.
- Jan 23, 2010
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I think Gaunce is a whiff, even just in philosophy. Taking a very low-upside player at the bottom of the 1st round doesn't make much sense to me as that's a perfect spot to take a high-upside, high-risk guy. See how they develop before offering them a contract, and if they don't develop how you'd like just let them go and get the 2nd round pick from the NHL when they re-enter the draft.
skyo
Benning Squad
We can all agree Gillis and his crew was horrible at drafting, the other teams fans probably can agree to that fact.
But with no 1st overall choices in my opinion the Canucks have scored some great picks outside the TOP 4.
Well the context of the discussion was “hits” like Boeser, so I’m not sure what else to classify them as. I didn’t say they were outright busts, but obviously not hits either.
Because you can get great players outside of 1OA.
2011 #7 Schiefele, #9 Couturier > RNH
2012 #6 Lindholm, #7 Dumba, #9 Trouba > Yakupov
2013 #6 Monahan, #7 Risto, #9 Horvat excellent players (nobody beats #1 McKinnon)
2014 #8 Nylander, #9 Ehlers excellent players (slightly below #1 Ekblad)
2015 #7 Provorov, #8 Werenski excellent players (of course below #1 McDavid).
It’s not like picking 5-7 doesn’t frequently produce top end players.
Like I said, considering where we picked over the last 5 years, we should have more than 2 prospects playing with the Canucks.
On top of that, we should have so many more quality prospects. Yes, the 1st round we might have moved back a couple spots with the lottery, but it doesn't effect the other rounds. Our 2nd was basically a late 1st and so on...
So, we have some good prospects, but we should be much better than we are. There's really nothing to praise of brag about...
WTG
December 5th
Just to add some more to the pile but being this bad is basically moving your 2nd and onward to basically a late 1st. 2nd becomes a late 1st, 3rs becomes a late 2nd and onward. That has ramifications through the entire draft. Benning has had that luxury basically 3 times, Gillis has not.
Also, keep in mind Gillis hired the guy who is running the draft table.
Also, keep in mind Gillis hired the guy who is running the draft table.
If you look at the prospects who posters consider to be solid or ones to be excited about, they are all in in the Top 70 picks of the draft with the exception of Gaudette (a 5th rounder Gillis got for Raphael Diaz ahem). It's the simple fact that we are awarded these picks by the league, including an additional 2nd round pick for Torts (a rule that we were lucky was grandfathered out), and our positioning has been so awful that we are picking near the top of every round and have access to better talent.
hmm Boeser and McCann were picked in the 20's along with Demko, Lind and Woo in the 30's. Compared to Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Jensen etc. it still looks good. Taking away picks 10 and better does not help your case at all. Many of Benning's prospects will fail but all of Gillis era picks outside Horvat are failing. Even judging by your faulty standards Benning is doing better Sauve and Mallet were not good picks even by 3rd round standards. Obviously that is a pretty easy standard to beat.
stampedingviking
Registered User
It's just any excuse to crap on Benning, isn't it? Good, bad or indifferent it's the same, now we're even making excuses for the God Gillis not to have picked anything decent after the first
Tables of Stats
Registered User
Let's look at how Gillis did with his picks compared to what was actually there to be had. I'm only doing the first 4 rounds as, generously in the case of the 4th round, this is where one would expect to find players. Anything from the 5th round onward is gravy.
2008: Gillis was hired in April and wouldn't have done much if any of his own research going into the draft this season.
Pick 1: Cody Hodgson - We know this story, but it's difficult to fault Gillis for this particular pick. At the time there was no way of knowing that Hodgson had an undiagnosed medical condition hampering his play. TSN had Hodgson ranked 9th and we picked him 10th so it's hard to argue that we didn't take the perceived BPA at the time.
Pick 2: Yanne Sauve - This one sucks. There were three hits in the next ten picks and it would have been a great benefit to us to have picked Wiericoch or Stepan, Shultz would have been a good pick but we know that he didn't sign with the team who drafted him and rejected our offer when he became a free agent.
Picks 3 & 4: We didn't have any picks in the 3rd and 4th round in 2008.
2009: Gillis's first draft with a season under his belt as the Canuck's GM.
Pick 1: Jordan Schroeder - This was a pretty large swing and a pretty large miss. That said he was 15th on TSN's list that season. Some people will say that we should also have passed on him after he fell 7 spots to our pick but hindsight is 20/20. The biggest pain here is that within 10 spots of him two nice hits in Johansson and Palmieri then just one pick outside of that range a huge hit in ROR.
Pick 2: Anton Rodin - We went off the board entirely to take a stab at Rodin (who's signed another NHL deal with the Ducks this offseason) had we stayed on the board it's possible we end up with Gelinas, Tatar, or Pirri (Orlov is out as we were very against drafting from the KHL at this time) any of those picks is vastly better than what we got.
Pick 3: Kevin Connauton - This pick was actually a hit, just not for us. Compared to most of his peers K-Conn has done pretty well not a home run but a solid hit for our scouts.
Pick 4: Jeremy Price - Hard to complain too much as only two players drafted within the next 10 picks went on to play more than 100 NHL games. I guess Chiarot would have been a decent get, but when the next best player is Froese it's hard to say we really missed out on much.
2010: Gillis's second full year as GM.
Picks 1, 2 & 3: We had no picks in the first three rounds of this year's draft. Given where our team was at it's hard to fault Gillis for spending picks on NHL ready assets.
Pick 4: Patrick McNally - A pretty big bust, but at least we traded him for a pick later. Again there wasn't much quality within the next 10 picks but a Hyman or Wagner would still have been nice.
2011: The draft after a heartbreaking run.
Pick 1: Nicklas Jensen - Obviously a bust but he was ranked 24th and we picked him at 29th. Another faller that didn't pan out. We could have had Rakell, Jurco, Jenner, or Gibson that means 4 out of 10 teams just flat out beat us. Those other six teams ended up with pretty much the same level of player, so it feels a bit like we lost a coin flip.
Pick 2: Traded.
Pick 3: David Honzik - Another whiff, but at least this one was a goalie picked around where you'd like to see goalies picked. No goalie picked after Honzik amounted to anything and no player taken within 10 picks of him played over 200 games or reached 35 career points.
Pick 4: Alexandre Grenier - This wasn't that bad a pick even if his NHL upside was never there. He gave our AHL teams solid service and of those players picked after him only JG Pageau was something worth worrying over.
Pick 5: Joe Labate - Another AHL lifer who's a solid soldier at that level. It hurts that we missed Gaudreau but the other 9 players we let past us were exactly the same level as Labate.
Pick 6: Ludwig Blomstrand - A total whiff but there was nothing in the next 10. Closest thing to an asset was Claesson but 20 points in 113 games isn't anything I'm losing sleep over.
2012: Another year another draft.
Pick 1: Brendan Gaunce - We can rag on how little Gaunce does offensively but in the next ten spots he's competing with Skjei and Pearson. Pearson is the only player I'd lose sleep on but getting Gaunce still means we did better than 8 of the next 10 teams managed to do.
Pick 2: Alexandre Mallet - Not sure what the plan was here... Severson and too a far lesser extent Martinook would have been the home runs here, but really we did the worst we could have done with this pick.
Picks 3 and 4: Traded.
2013: Gillis's final draft.
Pick 1: Bo Horvat - We won this one. It's hard to argue that we didn't get the best player out of every player within 10 picks of Horvat. The only player who's close is Wennberg so I guess watch this space because Horvat could wind up being the second best player taken in the top 19.
Pick 2: Hunter Shinkaruk - He busted, but so has pretty well everybody taken in the next 10 picks. That said, there are players who are at least still playing in the NHL taken near him. Hard to fault trying for the small skilled player but this was a swing and a miss.
Pick 3: Cole Cassels - We know this story. Looked great in juniors but has struggled to be more than a 3rd liner at the AHL level and even that is being generous. The good news is there are only two players who would have been NHL players for us in Andrighetto and Bjorkstrand now that Slepyshev has gone back to the KHL.
Pick 4: Jordan Subban - Another small skilled pick who just couldn't overcome his lack of size. The only hit we could have landed is Butcher and that's the home run pick for the entire 4th round. We have the other player worth having from the next 10 spots having acquired Motte.
Those are all the picks in the first 4 rounds under Gillis. It honestly feels like he just got unlucky when you look at the players taken within the next 10 picks of what we actually took. It hurts looking at what we could have had in some cases, but in every case, there are at least 6 other teams feeling the same way. In many of the later rounds even if we got the biggest hit all we would have had was a few seasons of a replacement level NHLer.
It's easy to throw stones with 20/20 hindsight and we did do worse than average over that span but it really feels more like bad luck than bad methodology with most of our picks.
2008: Gillis was hired in April and wouldn't have done much if any of his own research going into the draft this season.
Pick 1: Cody Hodgson - We know this story, but it's difficult to fault Gillis for this particular pick. At the time there was no way of knowing that Hodgson had an undiagnosed medical condition hampering his play. TSN had Hodgson ranked 9th and we picked him 10th so it's hard to argue that we didn't take the perceived BPA at the time.
Pick 2: Yanne Sauve - This one sucks. There were three hits in the next ten picks and it would have been a great benefit to us to have picked Wiericoch or Stepan, Shultz would have been a good pick but we know that he didn't sign with the team who drafted him and rejected our offer when he became a free agent.
Picks 3 & 4: We didn't have any picks in the 3rd and 4th round in 2008.
2009: Gillis's first draft with a season under his belt as the Canuck's GM.
Pick 1: Jordan Schroeder - This was a pretty large swing and a pretty large miss. That said he was 15th on TSN's list that season. Some people will say that we should also have passed on him after he fell 7 spots to our pick but hindsight is 20/20. The biggest pain here is that within 10 spots of him two nice hits in Johansson and Palmieri then just one pick outside of that range a huge hit in ROR.
Pick 2: Anton Rodin - We went off the board entirely to take a stab at Rodin (who's signed another NHL deal with the Ducks this offseason) had we stayed on the board it's possible we end up with Gelinas, Tatar, or Pirri (Orlov is out as we were very against drafting from the KHL at this time) any of those picks is vastly better than what we got.
Pick 3: Kevin Connauton - This pick was actually a hit, just not for us. Compared to most of his peers K-Conn has done pretty well not a home run but a solid hit for our scouts.
Pick 4: Jeremy Price - Hard to complain too much as only two players drafted within the next 10 picks went on to play more than 100 NHL games. I guess Chiarot would have been a decent get, but when the next best player is Froese it's hard to say we really missed out on much.
2010: Gillis's second full year as GM.
Picks 1, 2 & 3: We had no picks in the first three rounds of this year's draft. Given where our team was at it's hard to fault Gillis for spending picks on NHL ready assets.
Pick 4: Patrick McNally - A pretty big bust, but at least we traded him for a pick later. Again there wasn't much quality within the next 10 picks but a Hyman or Wagner would still have been nice.
2011: The draft after a heartbreaking run.
Pick 1: Nicklas Jensen - Obviously a bust but he was ranked 24th and we picked him at 29th. Another faller that didn't pan out. We could have had Rakell, Jurco, Jenner, or Gibson that means 4 out of 10 teams just flat out beat us. Those other six teams ended up with pretty much the same level of player, so it feels a bit like we lost a coin flip.
Pick 2: Traded.
Pick 3: David Honzik - Another whiff, but at least this one was a goalie picked around where you'd like to see goalies picked. No goalie picked after Honzik amounted to anything and no player taken within 10 picks of him played over 200 games or reached 35 career points.
Pick 4: Alexandre Grenier - This wasn't that bad a pick even if his NHL upside was never there. He gave our AHL teams solid service and of those players picked after him only JG Pageau was something worth worrying over.
Pick 5: Joe Labate - Another AHL lifer who's a solid soldier at that level. It hurts that we missed Gaudreau but the other 9 players we let past us were exactly the same level as Labate.
Pick 6: Ludwig Blomstrand - A total whiff but there was nothing in the next 10. Closest thing to an asset was Claesson but 20 points in 113 games isn't anything I'm losing sleep over.
2012: Another year another draft.
Pick 1: Brendan Gaunce - We can rag on how little Gaunce does offensively but in the next ten spots he's competing with Skjei and Pearson. Pearson is the only player I'd lose sleep on but getting Gaunce still means we did better than 8 of the next 10 teams managed to do.
Pick 2: Alexandre Mallet - Not sure what the plan was here... Severson and too a far lesser extent Martinook would have been the home runs here, but really we did the worst we could have done with this pick.
Picks 3 and 4: Traded.
2013: Gillis's final draft.
Pick 1: Bo Horvat - We won this one. It's hard to argue that we didn't get the best player out of every player within 10 picks of Horvat. The only player who's close is Wennberg so I guess watch this space because Horvat could wind up being the second best player taken in the top 19.
Pick 2: Hunter Shinkaruk - He busted, but so has pretty well everybody taken in the next 10 picks. That said, there are players who are at least still playing in the NHL taken near him. Hard to fault trying for the small skilled player but this was a swing and a miss.
Pick 3: Cole Cassels - We know this story. Looked great in juniors but has struggled to be more than a 3rd liner at the AHL level and even that is being generous. The good news is there are only two players who would have been NHL players for us in Andrighetto and Bjorkstrand now that Slepyshev has gone back to the KHL.
Pick 4: Jordan Subban - Another small skilled pick who just couldn't overcome his lack of size. The only hit we could have landed is Butcher and that's the home run pick for the entire 4th round. We have the other player worth having from the next 10 spots having acquired Motte.
Those are all the picks in the first 4 rounds under Gillis. It honestly feels like he just got unlucky when you look at the players taken within the next 10 picks of what we actually took. It hurts looking at what we could have had in some cases, but in every case, there are at least 6 other teams feeling the same way. In many of the later rounds even if we got the biggest hit all we would have had was a few seasons of a replacement level NHLer.
It's easy to throw stones with 20/20 hindsight and we did do worse than average over that span but it really feels more like bad luck than bad methodology with most of our picks.
Weird you decided to cut it at the 4th round. Vancouver is oddly good at drafting in the 5th round across multiple regimes. Gaudette, Forsling, Hutton, Corrado, Brown, Bieksa,
Tables of Stats
Registered User
I'd considered cutting it at the 3rd round but went with the 4th so that every year listed had at least one player drafted. I could have gone to the 5th round or even gone round by round and if there's interest I would be willing to go to that level of depth.
If I do go that deep, I might also look at how other teams made out over that same span and see if any teams drafted around the same spots as us and did better or worse than we did. That would be a day or two of work so I'm less likely to do that unless there's a real push for it.
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