I’m sure his floor is that of a young Ben Lovejoy. Hynes will love him.
Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft Part I
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I’m sure his floor is that of a young Ben Lovejoy. Hynes will love him.
Sure there is some level of correlation. But to say athleticism and skating are the same? No way.
Being a good athlete by no means makes one a good skater. Go find the greatest athlete at the summer Olympics and stick him on ice skates and see how he does.
Skills are learned, they are developed. Does being a good athlete mean they might develop those skills faster? Sure, but a)that does not mean we should not discern the one from the other, and b)that would then speak to Miller's potential upside.
We'll be set for the future if LJ can teach him his signature move:
In the O zone, get the puck at the blue line...absolutely panic even though no one is within 15 feet of you, then proceed to try to do an off balance flip of the puck down the middle of the zone, and for the finishing move: get burned by the opposing forward you just turned the puck over to.
You left out the part where he blocks a young player who could play just as well with protected minutes and maybe actually improve beyond that level.
In all seriousness though, Miller does appear to check a lot of boxes in the current NHL and he appears to fit the NJ model under Shero. Is he perfect? No not close but he does offer great upside and at least the impression he will work to improve himself and he seems coachable. Also at some point I asked STI about the skating agility issue and in his view it was not a problem. I’ll give him credit for putting in the time to look. I also have to give credit to the fan in the Miller thread on the main board who has gone to Miller and Wilde’s home games for the past two seasons who said they are both undisciplined in their own zone but the coaching hasn’t exactly helped them since the system appears disorganized. It’s never simple if you aren’t picking first and even then it can be tricky.
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I get what you're saying...there's the general good athlete that was good at everything in gym class. Athleticism in a classic sense.
I'm just saying, more or less everyone getting drafted into the NHL is a good athlete in that sense. That's why I view the term in a more specific manner to the sport.
Miller's floor is as a bottom four defenseman. But the same can be said for Bouchard, Smith and Dobson -- while Boqvist has more bust potential than any of those four.
The reason that Miller is "falling" to 17 is simply that he has the greatest gap between where he is now as a player and his talent ceiling. I should note that the same can be said about Bode Wilde.
I thought his signature move was standing in front of his goalie, flailing at a cross-crease pass, and falling while the other team scores.
It is unfair to compare Miller to Wolanin, in that Wolanin was a good athlete -- Miller is an absolutely elite athlete, and he offers the rare combination of elite athleticism and high-end intelligence.
Miller is faster and stronger than Mueller and Gelinas at the same age, and plays at a far more intense compete level. He has also had a more impressive developmental arc in the two seasons leading up to this draft. And yes, he is a very smart kid.
Ginning doesn't skate very well, probably a tough fit in the Devils system as a result. A far superior option would be Ty Emberson -- just a physical beast who is quite mobile and smart. Emberson was the third-best D on the US-NTDP this year after Miller/Wilde, and above Samuelsson (who some see as a first-rounder). Other defensive D who could be available in the fourth round who offer slightly superior packages to Ginning include Martin Fehervary and Slava Demin.
devilsfan35
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Please give a reason for this certainty, beyond "they are both recently converted forwards in their draft year".
Gelinas was a big, mobile skater known for an absolute howitzer of a shot but prone to defensive breakdowns and inconsistent compete levels.
Miller is is a huge, plus-plus skater with incredible physical strength, off-the-charts compete level, willingness to engage physically and high intelligence. While most of Gelinas' offense was created blasting the puck from the blueline, Miller garners his offense off the rush, by pinching in from the point, using his pinpoint passing and stick handling to create odd-man situations down low.
They are not similar player, have not ever been similar players and never will be similar players.
Writers are saying this, but it will probably not happen, and here's why.
We can safely say that 1-2 are locked into Dahlin/Svechnikov. We can also safely assume that 8 more teams will not pass on Fs Zadina, Tkachuk and Wahlstrom. That's five. With so many teams in the top 10 coveting D, I think we can all agree what a stretch it would be for Hughes, Dobson or Bouchard to slip past 10, so that's 8 players, leaving two spots. Kotkaniemi is widely considered to be the top C, and a 1C is as coveted as anything in the NHL, so that's 9. Then you have one spot remaining, and candidates for that include D Boqvist and Smith and Cs Veleno and Hayton. Is it possible that, say, Edmonton does not like Smith or Boqvist and decides to gift McDavid with a high-end winger? Yes, but it is more likely that they go with Farabee than Kravtsov or Bokk. I mean, it's possible, it's just really mathematically unlikely.
The Wumpus
bottomless pit supervisor
I'd be curious to see a list of converted F-to-D draftees of the last ten or so years.
Are there any current NHL D-men who did the switch only a few years before their draft?
Are there any current NHL D-men who did the switch only a few years before their draft?
OmNomNom
Taco is Love, Taco is Life
well... jacques lemaire converted burns into a defenseman, as soon as he made his professional debut
Byfuglien switched back and forth a great deal between D and F. He is also a good comparable for Miller, though Buff (though very mobile) never had Miller's skating and Miller lacks Buff's cannon of a shot.
HenriquesJawLine
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The tracking data in that Athletic article makes Miller look awfully good. And when you add his character, physical attributes and skating to that mix you have a very exciting prospect. And if he's already standing out that much as a "raw" player then the potential is off the charts.
The Wumpus
bottomless pit supervisor
The guy I’d be nervous about is Wilde based on what I’m reading but I trust Shero and Castron to pick the best player available at 17 whoever they believe it to be. As others have said team needs change rapidly and although it would be great to have a LD1 to replace Greene that won’t be Miller for several years so that’s not a reason to pick him. If they think he becomes a better NHL player than the other choices at 17 then it makes sense.
I think Jake Gardiner did. Other than him and Big Buff, not sure who else currently in the league.
-edit-
Oh, forgot Burns. Just googling around, apparently Markov was a converted forward too.
You don't draft Miller to replace Greene. But you do draft him in part knowing that organizationally we are very thin at that position. You also draft him with the belief that he can become a #1 d-man.
And that's where all this BPA stuff is so fuzzy. Are we talking upside, are we talking likelihood of reaching that upside. No one really knows the answer to these questions, yet we are trying to balance them one against the other.
But Miller def has high upside. More then you'd expect to see at a #17 pick. And he plays the position we are most lacking in depth.
Cheddabombs
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alright, here's my hasty mock
1) Buffalo: Rasmus Dahlin
2) Carolina: Andrei Svechnikov
3) Montreal: Jesperi Kotkaniemi
4) Ottawa: Filip Zadina
5) Arizona: Noah Dobson
6) Detroit: Adam Boqvist
7) Vancouver: Evan Bouchard
8) Chicago: Oliver Wahlstrom
9) New York Rangers: Brady Tkachuk
10) Edmonton: Quinn Hughes
11) New York Islanders: Joe Veleno
12) New York Islanders: Ty Smith
13) Dallas: Joel Farabee
14) Philidelphia: Barrett Hayton
15) Florida: Vitali Kravstov
16) Colorado: Grigori Denisenko
17) New Jersey: K'Andre Miller
18) Columbus: Dominik Bokk
19) Philadelphia: Rasmus Kupari
20) Los Angeles: Martin Kaut
21) San Jose: Rasmus Sandin
22) Ottawa: Ty Dellandrea
23) Anaheim: Isac Lundestrom
24) Minnesota: Bode Wilde
25) Toronto: Akil Thomas
26) New York Rangers: Liam Foudy
27) Chicago Blackhawks: Alexander Alexeyev
28) New York Rangers: Ryan Merkley
29) St. Louis: Mattias Samuelsson
30) Detroit: Serron Noel
31) Washington: Jonathon Tychonick
i'll collect my winnings tomorrow
1) Buffalo: Rasmus Dahlin
2) Carolina: Andrei Svechnikov
3) Montreal: Jesperi Kotkaniemi
4) Ottawa: Filip Zadina
5) Arizona: Noah Dobson
6) Detroit: Adam Boqvist
7) Vancouver: Evan Bouchard
8) Chicago: Oliver Wahlstrom
9) New York Rangers: Brady Tkachuk
10) Edmonton: Quinn Hughes
11) New York Islanders: Joe Veleno
12) New York Islanders: Ty Smith
13) Dallas: Joel Farabee
14) Philidelphia: Barrett Hayton
15) Florida: Vitali Kravstov
16) Colorado: Grigori Denisenko
17) New Jersey: K'Andre Miller
18) Columbus: Dominik Bokk
19) Philadelphia: Rasmus Kupari
20) Los Angeles: Martin Kaut
21) San Jose: Rasmus Sandin
22) Ottawa: Ty Dellandrea
23) Anaheim: Isac Lundestrom
24) Minnesota: Bode Wilde
25) Toronto: Akil Thomas
26) New York Rangers: Liam Foudy
27) Chicago Blackhawks: Alexander Alexeyev
28) New York Rangers: Ryan Merkley
29) St. Louis: Mattias Samuelsson
30) Detroit: Serron Noel
31) Washington: Jonathon Tychonick
i'll collect my winnings tomorrow
Got some love regarding the potential F's available in our range in the McKeens draft mailbag (Free)
2018 NHL Draft Mailbag: Two days away from the best day of the year
Thought it was really cool of them to give the direct feedback from the reigional scouts, and wanted to share it here.
oxman44 @bnittel44
Kupari, Kravtsov, and Denisenko. Whos got the best tools and whose got the most top line upside?
Ryan - McKeens: I sent this question to our Russian and Finnish scouts, and I will allow them each to answer.
Alessandro Seren Rosso:
To me, both Kravtsov and Denisenko are a good pick. Both are very talented, and have the good intangibles needed to be a first-round pick. Denisenko has more raw talent, and probably also the higher upside, but a few question marks on his character and his style of play make Kravtsov a safer option, even if he probably has less upside. In my opinion, however, both have first-line upside. In particular Kravtsov is a safer option, albeit less talented. His combination of shot and size, though, is very good.
Viktor Fomich:
I think Kravtsov's ceiling is higher and there is some gap. Again, purely in terms of the ceiling.
Probably I should elaborate a bit: I think that despite being a half-year older, Kravtsov has actually more space under the ceiling to fill out comparing to Denisenko. Denisenko already posesses the raw tools and even some decent muscles and we just hope that all that will be polished, put in a toolbox and, if everything is going smoothly, would result in a 60+ point Top6 LW, who would just exhaust the opposing D guys with his energy and explosiveness even if he is not picking up those points. With Kravtsov it is a bit different: it's pretty hard to evaluate the ceiling as there are things that can be added that could and should notably amplify his game: for example, both lower and upper body strength is just not there at the moment and it is not that hard to add it when you're 6'3" (takes time and some work, of course). Adding some more intensity and maturity is harder, but again, it is about toolboxes, almost everyone has to get through that. So in the end I don't think it is too optimistic to consider his ceiling at around 70+ points and the "too optimistic" mode can get the evaluation even higher.
About the tools, I think they are pretty comparable. Both got good hands: Kravtsov's hands look softer, but Denisenko looks better at dangles. Shooting department's level is comparable, yet different in terms of details: Kravtsov's shot is a continuation of his soft hands, as he hot a great release and precision on his wrist shot, Denisenko is not that precise at least at this point, but his right-handed slapper is a serious weapon. Currently I'd give a slight edge to Denisenko in the skating department due to his explosiveness, but Kravtsov should be able to potentially gain it too. Both are creative, but I'd clearly rank Kravtsov higher here. At the overall hockey sense both got a lot of work in front of them, but again I'd give a slight, but confident edge to Kravtsov as he has shown that he can play more or less disciplined game in the KHL play-offs, while Denisenko wasn't too impressive here even in the juniors. Physicality here is mostly defined by the frame: Kravtsov's 6'3" Vs. Denisenko's 5'11" gives Kravtsov a clear advantage long-term, but he needs to fullfill that, as currently Denisenko looks even stronger than him despite the height disadvantage. In terms of two-way game, both have a lot to learn here, won't give anyone of them an advantage.
Marco Bombino:
Kupari has the tools to be a first-line center but I wouldn't bet my money on it as there are some question marks surrounding his game. The combination of speed and skill is intriguing, but as the past season progressed, I started to have questions about his offensive vision and ability to make plays under pressure. The tools to become a strong three-zone player are there, however, to me he seems more destined for a second-line role.
Ryan - McKeens: Back to me now. When doing our rankings, we try to focus on projection more than anything. So our overall rankings can sort of answer your questions. We have Kravtsov ranked 16, Kupari 21, and Denisenko 27.
Seems like they like Kravtsov as the safest pick.,and It's starting to feel less and less likely that hes there for us at 17. Like Steven's mock, prob to Philly at 14. Regardless, Im totally cool with Miller here. Or.......
Boqvist-Mcleod-Kupari anyone?
2018 NHL Draft Mailbag: Two days away from the best day of the year
Thought it was really cool of them to give the direct feedback from the reigional scouts, and wanted to share it here.
oxman44 @bnittel44
Kupari, Kravtsov, and Denisenko. Whos got the best tools and whose got the most top line upside?
Ryan - McKeens: I sent this question to our Russian and Finnish scouts, and I will allow them each to answer.
Alessandro Seren Rosso:
To me, both Kravtsov and Denisenko are a good pick. Both are very talented, and have the good intangibles needed to be a first-round pick. Denisenko has more raw talent, and probably also the higher upside, but a few question marks on his character and his style of play make Kravtsov a safer option, even if he probably has less upside. In my opinion, however, both have first-line upside. In particular Kravtsov is a safer option, albeit less talented. His combination of shot and size, though, is very good.
Viktor Fomich:
I think Kravtsov's ceiling is higher and there is some gap. Again, purely in terms of the ceiling.
Probably I should elaborate a bit: I think that despite being a half-year older, Kravtsov has actually more space under the ceiling to fill out comparing to Denisenko. Denisenko already posesses the raw tools and even some decent muscles and we just hope that all that will be polished, put in a toolbox and, if everything is going smoothly, would result in a 60+ point Top6 LW, who would just exhaust the opposing D guys with his energy and explosiveness even if he is not picking up those points. With Kravtsov it is a bit different: it's pretty hard to evaluate the ceiling as there are things that can be added that could and should notably amplify his game: for example, both lower and upper body strength is just not there at the moment and it is not that hard to add it when you're 6'3" (takes time and some work, of course). Adding some more intensity and maturity is harder, but again, it is about toolboxes, almost everyone has to get through that. So in the end I don't think it is too optimistic to consider his ceiling at around 70+ points and the "too optimistic" mode can get the evaluation even higher.
About the tools, I think they are pretty comparable. Both got good hands: Kravtsov's hands look softer, but Denisenko looks better at dangles. Shooting department's level is comparable, yet different in terms of details: Kravtsov's shot is a continuation of his soft hands, as he hot a great release and precision on his wrist shot, Denisenko is not that precise at least at this point, but his right-handed slapper is a serious weapon. Currently I'd give a slight edge to Denisenko in the skating department due to his explosiveness, but Kravtsov should be able to potentially gain it too. Both are creative, but I'd clearly rank Kravtsov higher here. At the overall hockey sense both got a lot of work in front of them, but again I'd give a slight, but confident edge to Kravtsov as he has shown that he can play more or less disciplined game in the KHL play-offs, while Denisenko wasn't too impressive here even in the juniors. Physicality here is mostly defined by the frame: Kravtsov's 6'3" Vs. Denisenko's 5'11" gives Kravtsov a clear advantage long-term, but he needs to fullfill that, as currently Denisenko looks even stronger than him despite the height disadvantage. In terms of two-way game, both have a lot to learn here, won't give anyone of them an advantage.
Marco Bombino:
Kupari has the tools to be a first-line center but I wouldn't bet my money on it as there are some question marks surrounding his game. The combination of speed and skill is intriguing, but as the past season progressed, I started to have questions about his offensive vision and ability to make plays under pressure. The tools to become a strong three-zone player are there, however, to me he seems more destined for a second-line role.
Ryan - McKeens: Back to me now. When doing our rankings, we try to focus on projection more than anything. So our overall rankings can sort of answer your questions. We have Kravtsov ranked 16, Kupari 21, and Denisenko 27.
Seems like they like Kravtsov as the safest pick.,and It's starting to feel less and less likely that hes there for us at 17. Like Steven's mock, prob to Philly at 14. Regardless, Im totally cool with Miller here. Or.......
Boqvist-Mcleod-Kupari anyone?
Billdo
Registered User
So what are the odds we actually stand pat and not acquire a 2nd or 3rd tomorrow or Saturday?
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