OT: 2018 NFL Thread Part III

[devilsblood]

Giants look like they want nothing to do with Haskins. NFL Draft 2019: Giants ‘not in’ on scouting Ohio State’s Dwayne Haskins | Enter Missouri’s Drew Lock or Duke’s Daniel Jones?

And I'm fine with that.

I'm all in on keeping Eli the QB and let him run a play action offense with Saquon.

And for those that say Saquon was a dumb pick because you can find a RB anywhere, you were not paying attention.

 

[devilsblood]

Dude...that's hysterical. Are you trying to be obtuse?

Is half the WR Odell was and was on AN EXPIRING CONTRACT.

Jesus.

Maybe listen to what the most popular NFL sources are saying about this trade. I'll give you some help since it looks like you don't like to do research: Surprised at the return. Expected 2 firsts and a small plus (pending where the 1st fell).

On the other hand moving Odell clears up cap space, a little this year, but a lot in the years following.

 

[devilsblood]

This is (unfortunately) the rare instance when the team who gets the best player will not win the trade.

The Giants return is solid, but it's addition by subtraction as OBJr is a cancerous pest.

It's even more an addition by subtraction in this case because this fully opens the door to this being an offense that runs through Barkley. Who in addition to being a fantastic player, is also a model citizen.

 

[NJDevs26]

And for those that say Saquon was a dumb pick because you can find a RB anywhere, you were not paying attention.

To what, the Giants' 5-11 record this year? The fact he's a great talent doesn't change the fact the RB position in general has been marginalized in terms of importance. Even when backs had more value a ton of great HOF backs still never got to or won SB's (Sanders, Tomlinson, Dickerson, etc). QB's and great defenses are far more valuable in the modern NFL. How many different RB's have the Patriots had in their SB runs?

 

[devilsblood]

To what, the Giants' 5-11 record this year? The fact he's a great talent doesn't change the fact the RB position in general has been marginalized in terms of importance. Even when backs had more value a ton of great HOF backs still never got to or won SB's (Sanders, Tomlinson, Dickerson, etc). QB's and great defenses are far more valuable in the modern NFL. How many different RB's have the Patriots had in their SB runs?

If we are going the "how many super bowls?" route, I know Eli has 2. Odell has zero. And NE has not had a super star WR's in their super bowls wins.

But I agree the Giants defense needs to improve dramatically.

 

[blood gin]

And I'm fine with that.

I'm all in on keeping Eli the QB and let him run a play action offense with Saquon.

And for those that say Saquon was a dumb pick because you can find a RB anywhere, you were not paying attention.

Nothing has changed. You can still find running backs everywhere. Plus you always have to be wary of how injury prone they are and generally short shelf life. You have to be careful how they're used. Remember KC and Larry Johnson. Two all world years back to back. 2,000 total yards both times. Then he completely fell apart.

 

[blood gin]

If we are going the "how many super bowls?" route, I know Eli has 2. Odell has zero. And NE has not had a super star WR's in their super bowls wins.

But I agree the Giants defense needs to improve dramatically.

In 2007 you had Burress. Who DID have superstar talent and would show it in dominating performances at times. He had four 1,000 yard seasons under his belt at that point

What was Victor Cruz in 2011. A superstar receiver playing at a very high level. It was his first full year, but 1,500 receiving yards is superstar

 

[Jack Be Quick]

To what, the Giants' 5-11 record this year? The fact he's a great talent doesn't change the fact the RB position in general has been marginalized in terms of importance. Even when backs had more value a ton of great HOF backs still never got to or won SB's (Sanders, Tomlinson, Dickerson, etc). QB's and great defenses are far more valuable in the modern NFL. How many different RB's have the Patriots had in their SB runs?

Is Sam Darnold Tom Brady? Because that's what you're implying with this argument.

Great defenses? No doubt. I'd argue that Belichek's defensive schemes have been a more integral part of NE's success than the "goat" has.

But let me ask you this: do the names Ray Rice (maybe), Marshawn Lynch, and Jerome Bettis not mean much to you? Because I can almost guarantee all of their teams don't win those games without those guys. I'm pretty sure the entire state of Washington circa 2015 would unfortunately agree with me.

And guess what? Saquon is already better than all of them.

Don't forget, you can win with Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Trent Dilfer as well.

Edit: I didn't even initially comment on the 5-11 statement. How many games do you think that team wins without Barkley? 1? 2?

And how many did the Jets win with the savior at the most important position of all time evers, with the guy the giants should have drafted instead?

 

[Jack Be Quick]

In 2007 you had Burress. Who DID have superstar talent and would show it in dominating performances at times. He had four 1,000 yard seasons under his belt at that point

What was Victor Cruz in 2011. A superstar receiver playing at a very high level. It was his first full year, but 1,500 receiving yards is superstar

Lulz.

It's almost as if Eli made an undrafted Victor Cruz a star, resurrected Plaxico's career, and helped nobodies enter the annals of history in the likes of Manningham and Tyree.

And people wonder why many giants fans couldn't care less about the Beckham trade.

History will be kind to the younger Manning no matter how much people like you and the media want to hate it away.

 

[NJDevs26]

Is Sam Darnold Tom Brady? Because that's what you're implying with this argument.

Great defenses? No doubt. I'd argue that Belichek's defensive schemes have been a more integral part of NE's success than the "goat" has.

But let me ask you this: do the names Ray Rice (maybe), Marshawn Lynch, and Jerome Bettis not mean much to you? Because I can almost guarantee all of their teams don't win those games without those guys. I'm pretty sure the entire state of Washington circa 2015 would unfortunately agree with me.

And guess what? Saquon is already better than all of them.

Don't forget, you can win with Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Trent Dilfer as well.

Edit: I didn't even initially comment on the 5-11 statement. How many games do you think that team wins without Barkley? 1? 2?

And how many did the Jets win with the savior at the most important position of all time evers, with the guy the giants should have drafted instead?

I said nothing about Darnold per se and for someone who claims to be a fan of both teams you can't wait to come in on the white horse defending the Giants and attacking the Jets. The Giants could have picked Josh Allen for all I cared, but they didn't and went all in on a win-now gameplan that failed miserably (although it might luck them into a second chance at QB), still have an old QB and are now in a serious rebuild around the great RB while he's on his rookie deal.

Jerome Bettis was a HOF back no doubt, but he was a bit player when he finally won his SB, Willie Parker was their main back that year. Ray Rice was a very good RB in his prime, but hardly elite and certainly not in the playoffs. Marshawn I'll give you even if they 'also' had an above average QB and an elite D, but my point wasn't that NO backs ever win it's that a lot of elite-HOF backs never win and that QB's are generally far more important - especially the last 10-15 years. When there's a potential franchise QB and potential franchise RB you pick the QB. Even if the RB winds up living up to his potential and the QB doesn't, which is a hindsight way of grading anyway. Guys come out of nowhere to have 1250-1500 yard seasons at the RB position pretty much every year and QB's tend to last a lot longer than RB's.

Don't forget, you can win with Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Trent Dilfer as well.

Edit: I didn't even initially comment on the 5-11 statement. How many games do you think that team wins without Barkley? 1? 2?

And how many did the Jets win with the savior at the most important position of all time evers, with the guy the giants should have drafted instead?

And with Dilfer we're going back to 2000. When the Ravens had arguably a top three ALL TIME defense and the game was different. Flacco and Foles sure, they're the recent outliers (and Flacco has at least had a decent overall career) but more often than not you need at least an above average to elite QB to win and/or to be competitive almost every year.

 

[blood gin]

Is Sam Darnold Tom Brady? Because that's what you're implying with this argument.

Great defenses? No doubt. I'd argue that Belichek's defensive schemes have been a more integral part of NE's success than the "goat" has.

But let me ask you this: do the names Ray Rice (maybe), Marshawn Lynch, and Jerome Bettis not mean much to you? Because I can almost guarantee all of their teams don't win those games without those guys. I'm pretty sure the entire state of Washington circa 2015 would unfortunately agree with me.

And guess what? Saquon is already better than all of them.

Don't forget, you can win with Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Trent Dilfer as well.

Edit: I didn't even initially comment on the 5-11 statement. How many games do you think that team wins without Barkley? 1? 2?

And how many did the Jets win with the savior at the most important position of all time evers, with the guy the giants should have drafted instead?

Nobody is saying Darnold is Brady, but Darnold for his age and experience level has already shown the ability to do some extremely advanced things on the field. And make amazing throws. Rare throws. Also with Foles Wentz deserves some credit there. He did get Philly to 11-2 before going down and that counts for something.

Without Barkley they probably win the same amount. Maybe one more, maybe one less. They won two where Barkley was not much of a factor. They got crushed in a game where Barkley racked up meaningless yards. They beat Washington in a game where the Redskins totally quit and any back would've torched them. So tough to quantify exactly what impact he's having. It's not like Barkley great day = wins and Barkley contained = losses

 

[devilsblood]

In 2007 you had Burress. Who DID have superstar talent and would show it in dominating performances at times. He had four 1,000 yard seasons under his belt at that point

What was Victor Cruz in 2011. A superstar receiver playing at a very high level. It was his first full year, but 1,500 receiving yards is superstar

So you are diminishing Barkley, while pumping up Plaxico and Cruz?

I mean you are knocking the RB position because you can get them anywhere and they have short careers, while Cruz was undrafted, had a 5 season career and was only effective for 3 of those years.

 

[devilsblood]

Nobody is saying Darnold is Brady, but Darnold for his age and experience level has already shown the ability to do some extremely advanced things on the field. And make amazing throws. Rare throws. Also with Foles Wentz deserves some credit there. He did get Philly to 11-2 before going down and that counts for something.

Without Barkley they probably win the same amount. Maybe one more, maybe one less. They won two where Barkley was not much of a factor. They got crushed in a game where Barkley racked up meaningless yards. They beat Washington in a game where the Redskins totally quit and any back would've torched them. So tough to quantify exactly what impact he's having. It's not like Barkley great day = wins and Barkley contained = losses

C'mon.

 

[Ripshot 43]

All this argueing over two franchises that won’t win more than a combined 8 games next season.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

I said nothing about Darnold per se and for someone who claims to be a fan of both teams you can't wait to come in on the white horse defending the Giants and attacking the Jets. The Giants could have picked Josh Allen for all I cared, but they didn't and went all in on a win-now gameplan that failed miserably (although it might luck them into a second chance at QB), still have an old QB and are now in a serious rebuild around the great RB while he's on his rookie deal.

Jerome Bettis was a HOF back no doubt, but he was a bit player when he finally won his SB, Willie Parker was their main back that year. Ray Rice was a very good RB in his prime, but hardly elite and certainly not in the playoffs. Marshawn I'll give you even if they 'also' had an above average QB and an elite D, but my point wasn't that NO backs ever win it's that a lot of elite-HOF backs never win and that QB's are generally far more important - especially the last 10-15 years. When there's a potential franchise QB and potential franchise RB you pick the QB. Even if the RB winds up living up to his potential and the QB doesn't, which is a hindsight way of grading anyway. Guys come out of nowhere to have 1250-1500 yard seasons at the RB position pretty much every year and QB's tend to last a lot longer than RB's.



And with Dilfer we're going back to 2000. When the Ravens had arguably a top three ALL TIME defense and the game was different. Flacco and Foles sure, they're the recent outliers (and Flacco has at least had a decent overall career) but more often than not you need at least an above average to elite QB to win and/or to be competitive almost every year.

You didn't outright state it which is why I said it was implied.

Am I white knighting for the Giants or defendending the greatest quarterback and the future greatest running back the franchise has ever seen against baseless attacks? Sorry, but it becomes obnoxious at some stage to listen to the media, opposing fans, and the occasional Jerome from Manhattan style Giants fan. The strategy going in to last season was not a poor one and I stand by that opinion.

A serious rebuild in the NFL is nothing like what it is in every other North American sport. Too many moving parts. The Browns went from 0 (0!) Wins in 2017 to super bowl contenders. On paper. So once again, it comes down to the Saquon and Eli detractors. Have a look at blood gin's post to see what motivates proper Giants fans to speak up.

Obviously franchise QB's are quite possibly the most valuable athletes on the planet. My entire point was predicated upon the fact that you can't claim Darnold (or Mayfield) is that yet and therefore can't claim Barkley was a silly pick.

Above average QB's are available all the time and I for one won't be upset if they take a DL and end up with Carr, Rosen, or ride the Eli train for another year following this one.

As far as me dumping on the Jets, give me a break. I wouldn't be a Jets fan if I didn't. I've been through this before with a USC quarterback who had all of the tools and potential in the world. And he ended up flaming out while the dude selected before him at 1OA is an above average QB wallowing in mediocrity for a franchise in the midwest.

I've seen this movie before and can't accept hope in to my life until it smacks me in the face and leaves me no choice.

 

[My3Sons]

There are numerous paths to success in the NFL. All of them involve buy in more than any other sport. No team sport seems to demand as much from its players as football. What NFL player is going to give 110% if he doesn’t see a big financial payoff or a good chance to win? Maybe a year or two at the beginning of their careers but after that I’m skeptical you will see the same level of commitment even if they pay public lip service to it.

Why can the Pats and Saints always have offensive success? Yes they have top QBs but they have lots of average talent around them and still produce great results. In my view they take advantage of the synergy between good coaching and the player support it engenders.

I’d really like to see the Giants rebound. Hopefully they can develop more consistency on the o-line and then I’d expect Eli to look better.

 

[devilsblood]

All this argueing over two franchises that won’t win more than a combined 8 games next season.

They won 9 combined last year. You expect them to get worse?

 

[Jack Be Quick]

They won 9 combined last year. You expect them to get worse?

If we're being honest the Giants could be. I can't imagine the Jets are. Though Robby Anderson could keep working his ass off to prove me wrong.

 

[Ripshot 43]

They won 9 combined last year. You expect them to get worse?

I’d have to look at the Giants schedule but if they pass up on a QB this draft then the tank could definitely be in. Jets... I would never put it past them.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

I’d have to look at the Giants schedule but if they pass up on a QB this draft then the tank could definitely be in. Jets... I would never put it past them.

3 wins is hard not to beat.

And Eli is the Giants QB no matter who they draft.

 

[blood gin]

Right now I'd go Giants 6, Jets 8 in terms of wins

 

[Camille the Eel]

NFL just announced non calls of pass interference will be reviewable by replay next year.

The Saints - Rams NFC championship game. This is the response. So that play will not be forgotten. More than a footnote. The non call heard round the world.

 

[devilsblood]

NFL just announced non calls of pass interference will be reviewable by replay next year.

The Saints - Rams NFC championship game. This is the response. So that play will not be forgotten. More than a footnote. The non call heard round the world.

yay, more reviews.

 

[NJDevs26]

It really isn't more reviews, the coaches won't get any more challenges than they already have. It just expands what they can challenge.

 

[My3Sons]

It really isn't more reviews, the coaches won't get any more challenges than they already have. It just expands what they can challenge.

There are some people I know that will have some reference to that non call carved on their tombstone