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Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Yes.
Pogba is a top 5 midfielder, Kante has twice EPL MVP (or so), Rabiot is developing into a super weapon, Matuidi's level isn't really debatable and Tolisso has eased into Bayern's midfield.
Try to find me comparable levels.

But as I said, on paper. Not sure how DD makes it work.

But I'll remind you it's cgf who homerly claimed Germany's midfielders are above anyone else's.

Spain has two of the five best midfielders plus Isco, Koke, whomever.

Those descriptors of Pogba and Kante sound nice but I don't agree with them. Pogba is elite creatively and all-around but he still has issues with his offensive positioning and being overly present sometimes. Kante is a fantastic player but he has more problems with his occasional over-pursuit of the ball than some let on, and he's good but not great with the ball at his feet.

Tolisso has eased into Bayern's midfield - to his apparently immense credit - but the guy who's "eased into" the midfield of 3 of the past 5 Champions League winners is merely "good at short lateral passes." Riiiight.
 

Evilo

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Mar 17, 2002
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Pogba = Goretzka?
And you're the one laughing? :facepalm:

Khedira is toasted. Matuidi isn't.


Cgf talking about others' homerism is fun.
 

Evilo

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Spain has two of the five best midfielders plus Isco, Koke, whomever.

Those descriptors of Pogba and Kante sound nice but I don't agree with them. Pogba is elite creatively and all-around but he still has issues with his offensive positioning and being overly present sometimes. Kante is a fantastic player but he has more problems with his occasional over-pursuit of the ball than some let on, and he's good but not great with the ball at his feet.

Tolisso has eased into Bayern's midfield - to his apparently immense credit - but the guy who's "eased into" the midfield of 3 of the past 5 Champions League winners is merely "good at short lateral passes." Riiiight.
Kroos is a top 10 MF. I didn't say Tolisso was. But Tolisso isn't even 3rd on France's depth chart. Kroos is 1st.

If you rate Busquets and Iniesta in the top 5 then unfortunately (because I love both), that's not true anymore.
Pogba top 5 is probably on current form because usually I rate him in the top 10, not top 5.
Kante is also a top 10 MF.
 

Luigi Habs

Captain Saku
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On paper France have the most complete team. But when it's said and done I don't think they'll win the WC. I personally don't trust Deschamps to lead this team.

But having a pool of Mbappe, Dembele, Griezmann, Lemar, Fekir, Martial, Koman, Laccazette, Thauvin as attacking options, are you kidding me?

Their midfield is also definitely top 3.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Their midfield is also definitely top 3.
France certainly have one of the biggest pools of talent, but cohesion is just as important as talent.

That said, top midfields? It's hard to really choose, but personally I think at least Spain, Germany and Croatia can put out a better top 3/4 midfielders than France. Just off the top of my head.

Spain: Thiago, Busquets, Silva, Isco
Germany: Kroos, Ozil, Gundogan, Gotze
France: Kante, Pogba, Matuidi, Rabiot?
Croatia: Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic, Brozovic

EDIT: I also think Brazil's midfield is a bit underrated. Coutinho, Casemiro, Fernandinho and Paulinho is pretty impressive especially with the support from Firmino if he plays up front.
 

Evilo

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Off what you listed Curtinho and again, on paper only, Croatia doesn't beat France, Germany has two injured players and Spain is the only competition, and even then Isco is more like Fekir, an AM, not a CM.

And yes Rabiot, or Tolisso or Bakayoko.

But I agree with Luigi. Don't think France has what it takes - yet - to win it all.
 

John Pedro

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France certainly have one of the biggest pools of talent, but cohesion is just as important as talent.

That said, top midfields? It's hard to really choose, but personally I think at least Spain, Germany and Croatia can put out a better top 3/4 midfielders than France. Just off the top of my head.

Spain: Thiago, Busquets, Silva, Isco
Germany: Kroos, Ozil, Gundogan, Gotze
France: Kante, Pogba, Matuidi, Rabiot?
Croatia: Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic, Brozovic

EDIT: I also think Brazil's midfield is a bit underrated. Coutinho, Casemiro, Fernandinho and Paulinho is pretty impressive especially with the support from Firmino if he plays up front.

Brazil midfield should be Jorginho/Casemiro, Fabinho/Paulinho, Coutinho/Arthur that would be a very good midfield... however, Tite doesn't like most of these guys for some reason. Coutinho is a winger in Tite's eyes, his ideal midfield is Casemiro, Paulinho and Renato quite crappy to be honest. Brazil strengths lie in having two of the best FBs in the game and a top3 player in Neymar. I'm very proud of our CBs too, not many teams can afford to have a guy like Thiago Silva on the bench (though he should be a starter). I'm not as optimist as some people here are on this team, don't think we gonna come close to winning the WC. My money is in Germany, Argentina or Spain.
 

QuietContrarian

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May 28, 2008
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The French Goretzka is a top 5 midfielder, but Mesut & Toni are problems :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Rabiot is a sexy mfer and Kante a beast, but bringing up Matuidi in this context would be like bringing up Khedira.



You were the one that didn't want to re-hash that whole discussion, if you'd like to contest my assessment then we can do so. I don't often call people on their homerism (outside of Evilo cause it's fun to wind him up sometimes). But in that discussion you were over-rating Danes while under-rating swiss players based solely on their nationality, not their league or anything else. We can find those old posts & go over them again if you want.

Good lord you are arrogant!

I was saying that the Danes were definitely on par at least with the Swiss, ypu said Swiss were a tier above Denmark.

Who is overrating who?

I had an opinion which I backed up, then you called me a homer, thats is arrogant, since your opinion does not bare more weight.

we can argue who is better all day, but in the end my problem is not that, but your arrogance and the fact u think you are right and call others homer. Ive seen it a few times, too much for a guy who doesnt often call people homers.

And just because I support the Danish nt, does not mean I am controlled by homerism, just as you claim you supporting the bl and a team that a lot of the Swiss play for is not affecting yours.

Btw, your answer opened up the whole discussion, and you know it.
 
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Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
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Morocco looks good?

Amrabat
Ziyech - Boufal - Belhanda
El Ahmadi - Harit
Dirar - Benatia - Mendyl - Hakimi
Bounou
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
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Too bad Algeria did not make it. They are far more better than other arab nations like Egypt, Tunisia, Saudi.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Kroos is a top 10 MF. I didn't say Tolisso was. But Tolisso isn't even 3rd on France's depth chart. Kroos is 1st.

If you rate Busquets and Iniesta in the top 5 then unfortunately (because I love both), that's not true anymore.
Pogba top 5 is probably on current form because usually I rate him in the top 10, not top 5.
Kante is also a top 10 MF.

Busquets and Thiago
 

Live in the Now

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Dec 17, 2005
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Too bad Algeria did not make it. They are far more better than other arab nations like Egypt, Tunisia, Saudi.

No, they're not better than the African nations or they would be there. And they lost to Tunisia at AFCON while Egypt made the final.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Who is in your top 5 then?

For me Modric and Thiago are definitely top 5 and after that it's difficult.
 

Hadoop

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Aug 13, 2002
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Didn't take long for this thread to go from predictions to the same kind of bickering as most of the other threads in the Soccer forum.

Anyways my picks:

Winners 1st, RU 2nd

A - Russia, Uruguay (I mean if Putin can influence the US election...)
B - Spain, Portugal (straight forward)
C - France, Denmark (proximity to Russia gives Danes the edge over Peru)
D - Argentina, Croatia (assuming both sides will have better chemistry)
E - Brazil, Switzerland (Swiss are most pragmatic of the 3 teams battling for second)
F - Germany, Mexico (El Tri's Confederations Cup experience will help them)
G - Belgium, England (straight forward)
H - Columbia, Poland (James and Lewy will make the difference)
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Brazil midfield should be Jorginho/Casemiro, Fabinho/Paulinho, Coutinho/Arthur that would be a very good midfield... however, Tite doesn't like most of these guys for some reason. Coutinho is a winger in Tite's eyes, his ideal midfield is Casemiro, Paulinho and Renato quite crappy to be honest. Brazil strengths lie in having two of the best FBs in the game and a top3 player in Neymar. I'm very proud of our CBs too, not many teams can afford to have a guy like Thiago Silva on the bench (though he should be a starter). I'm not as optimist as some people here are on this team, don't think we gonna come close to winning the WC. My money is in Germany, Argentina or Spain.

Jorginho was a brainfart. He'd fit in really well. I think actually a midfield of Coutinho, Fernandinho and Jorginho is up there with most in the world as well. Also yes Miranda/Marquinhos/Silva is a very solid CB group, Ederson is flourishing at City, and there's no denying the number of attacking options that are available to Brazil. Even a 4-2-3-1 would work well for them with Jorginho/Fernandinho behind some combination of Neymar/Firmino/Coutinho/Jesus. How come Felipe Anderson doesn't get more looks? I think that would be an amazing front 4 (Firmino leading the line with Neymar on the left, Coutinho in the middle and Anderson on the right).

Brazil for me should have the best team in the world if they had the right selections/coaching. We'll see how they do at this WC though.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Pogba = Goretzka?
And you're the one laughing? :facepalm:

Khedira is toasted. Matuidi isn't.


Cgf talking about others' homerism is fun.

Pogba's further ahead in their development & proven at higher levels, but yeah. Goretzka has very comparable skill + physical gifts; and both need too long on the ball to make decisions for me to rate them ahead of their countrymen Rabiot & Dahoud. That comment was made in large part just to tweak you, but like any good joke it was based in truth. Let's just say, there's a reason so many Bayern fans are so desperate to bring Leon in to replace Tolisso.

I hope Sami's done with the NT, but he's actually having a big of a renaissance with Juve; tallying 3 goals & an assist in the 8 matches he's been fit for. Either way, neither are smooth enough or incisive enough with the ball for a side who should dominate as much as either of ours. If I was in charge of the french NT Matuidi would only be brought along if I was sure that he would be a good soldier in a pure depth role. My starting trio that I would be preparing for Russia would feature Rabiot, Kante and Pogba or Sanson...if he's gotten back to the form he was in last year.

Kroos is a top 10 MF. I didn't say Tolisso was. But Tolisso isn't even 3rd on France's depth chart. Kroos is 1st.

If you rate Busquets and Iniesta in the top 5 then unfortunately (because I love both), that's not true anymore.
Pogba top 5 is probably on current form because usually I rate him in the top 10, not top 5.
Kante is also a top 10 MF.

I can get on board with dropping Iniesta from the top 5, but not Biscuits. He's still the gold standard.

Off what you listed Curtinho and again, on paper only, Croatia doesn't beat France, Germany has two injured players and Spain is the only competition, and even then Isco is more like Fekir, an AM, not a CM.

And yes Rabiot, or Tolisso or Bakayoko.

But I agree with Luigi. Don't think France has what it takes - yet - to win it all.

Again Ilkay is not currently injured. Though it's quite plausible that he will get hurt before the WM; as he has only ever made it to one tourney for the NT; that doesn't mean we can pretend like that injury has already happened and that he isn't a world class 8 when on the pitch who can actually push Ozil for the title of best german midfielder. If Ilkay's out for the WM then we can cross that bridge when we reach it, as Jogi almost certainly won't pick the right alternatives (Dahoud / Kramer / Demirbay) for his spot; but until he is out & we see how Jogi is going to screw up replacing him you can't point to that part of the german midfield and definitively say it'll be our weakness. If Jogi sticks someone like Can or Khedira in that spot, then it clearly will be, but until then Ilkay is the third man in our midfield and we have the quality alternatives to replace him without skipping a beat if Jogi trusts one of them.

PS I know Kramer doesn't get the respect he deserves, just like Kruse didn't when I was championing him for the NT, and just like Stindl didn't until he was given a NT chance & others were able to see how he would thrive in our possession game...even you have to admit how well he fits after watching him level that friendly. But that doesn't mean we can just ignore Kramer's quality. Few players in the game right now are as good at following the ball in possession to provide ball carriers with an easy option to play incisive 1-2s with. Add high end pressing resistance, stamina, and smooth passing in tight space to that world class movement; and you have a player I'd happily see start for the NT if Ilkay is not fit & Jogi refuses to trust Dahoud this soon.

PPS my opinions betray some of my most fundamental football ideologies; as pressing effectiveness & pressing resistance are the most important traits for a top side in the modern game (especially with midfielders) and belay a general quality in tight spaces that I rate far more than I do a player's lethality in space...thus the many arguments I've gotten into with other german fans who promote the "new ballack" storyline for Goretzka, and my preference for Stindl ahead of Werner for this tourney. So if you don't share my football philosophy my opinions can seem like hot-takes; but in that context nothing I've posted in here has been truly audacious (like my Amiri > Goretzka opinion).
 

Evilo

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You can knock Tolisso all you want, but he's going to be an important player for Bayern, just like his game today has proven.
He's a heart and soul player who produces on both ends. Can play 6, 8 or even 10. Heck, he's played RB with success. His IQ enables him to change position easily. And his physicality is important in midfield.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Just FYI but I like Tolisso, and have gotten into multiple arguments with bayern fans defending him; so don't take that comment to mean that I believe that Tolisso needs to be replaced, rather that comment was meant to convey just how gifted Goretzka is...hell if I was Bayern and signed Goretzka it would be to replace Vidal and because I think a coach like Nagelsmann/Tuchel/Pep could turn him into a truly world class player...but Tolisso (like Coman, Vidal & Hamez) was one of the big targets of criticism from Bayern fans before Jupp took over & their season turned around.


Watching a 17 year old Goretzka with Bochum remains the most impressed I've ever been by a talent at that age playing against men. The development of his possession instincts with Schalke has been a disappointment to me prior to this season, but he's still young enough to make good on all of that potential if he does hook up with Nagelsmann in Bavaria & continues the progress he's started to make under Tedesco.
 
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Evilo

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Cool, you're right, it's a brand new thing for Ilkay and Gotze. Also they're used to one week injury. Heck, Gotze is out for what... 3 days?
 

John Pedro

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Jorginho was a brainfart. He'd fit in really well. I think actually a midfield of Coutinho, Fernandinho and Jorginho is up there with most in the world as well. Also yes Miranda/Marquinhos/Silva is a very solid CB group, Ederson is flourishing at City, and there's no denying the number of attacking options that are available to Brazil. Even a 4-2-3-1 would work well for them with Jorginho/Fernandinho behind some combination of Neymar/Firmino/Coutinho/Jesus. How come Felipe Anderson doesn't get more looks? I think that would be an amazing front 4 (Firmino leading the line with Neymar on the left, Coutinho in the middle and Anderson on the right).

Brazil for me should have the best team in the world if they had the right selections/coaching. We'll see how they do at this WC though.

People here still have the image of the player Felipe Anderson was when he left the country to Europe: talented but disinterested player, lacking heart and intensity so he's been overlooked by media, fans and coaches. He probably should've gotten more looks, now it will be tough for him with Malcom and Richarlison playing well in Europe... maybe if he moves to a higher profile team and performs there he gets another shot.

Firmino also is crazy underrated by the media here. Some even say that Jô (former City) should be called up to be Jesus' backup instead of Firmino. lol
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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I'll never forgive your FA for not inviting Raffael to the 2014 team when he should've been your starting striker between Neymar & Hulk. The goal tallies weren't otherworldly (though his efficiency was) but he's had a massive influence on german football and forwards who've developed in germany since his breakthrough under Favre (this includes Firmino) with his ability to create chances & space for his team-mates.
 

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