2018 ATD Finals! Pittsburgh Bankers (1) vs New York Americans (2)

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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First of all, I was simply responding to your ridiculous claim that Frank Fosyton, Claude Giroux, and Vladimir Martinec were great forecheckers.

Kessel was a 2nd liner, and Sheary a 3rd liner.



Punch Broadbent is likely a good fore-checker. Foyston is likely average.



Hey, I like Giroux too. He's gritty.

He's a guy who is probably average to begin with, playing out of position, which further diminishes what he brings in my books



Ok, but who's forechecking in your coaches forechecking system?



Yes, the players who will rarely be on the ice are great at executing the system.



I never made a specific, ridiculous claim that all 3 of them were great fore checkers, either Go back and read the first quote you brought up.

I know.

Thats why I'm glad hockey isn't an individual sport and they each have great wingers who are capable of doing what Gorman wants. The vast majority of the Bankers fit what Gorman would want to do initially.

But if your problem is big enough, then vote against my team even though I believe I've presented more than enough to show why my team is superior to NY. Either way, I've enjoyed the ride and hope we have a great voter turnout, win or lose.

Foyston and Martinec are great wingers. I didn't say great fore checkers did I? And Foyston is more than capable of being strong on the check, in either direction. There's first hand examples of that. Been brought up multiple times. Martinec was at the very least a solid defensive winger, so while he wouldn't bang people in the offensive zone he would subscribe to playing good team D. Foyston was plus going back the other way.

Broadbent was an excellent fore checking winger. That's one of his bread and butter attributes when you read his bio's and game reports. Giroux is more than capable of checking. He's not Gordie Howe, but then again, as I've correctly pointed out and used modern day examples (see below), doesn't have to be. Especially on a line with Punch. Giroux out of position? Damn, 102 points in his first full year on the LW....not sure how that diminishes is offensive value when he just put up the most dominant season of his career....."out of position". If he was "out of position" he probably wouldn't have had a Hart type campaign.

Sheary played on Crosby's line in 2016. Not the 3rd. Last year he played some in the top 6 and some in the bottom 6. I watch all the Pens games.

Kessel is the most heavily used pure offensive winger in Pitt's system and they've done just fine with him being there.

Bryan Rust goes into the corners and is feisty but hardly a great fore checker. Again, another guy who has spent plenty of time in the top 6 for Pitt over the past 2.5 years. Jake Guentzel, same thing. A lot like Giroux in that he plays bigger than his size, but isn't some dominant physical presence.

So cumulatively, the bottom 6 of a hockey team is rarely on the ice? That's a new one. I guess, going to extremes is what some folks do.

At the end of the day I personally have more of an issue with a culturally and stylistically different coach (Cold War Tarasov) trying to get North American players to buy into his mindset when North Americans played and lived dramatically different than Russian players, in most cases. Nobody wants to dive into that one, do they, when it could absolutely be a real issue when looking at the history of hockey in Russia in the 50-60's? And not just on the ice, but culturally off it as well. How many NHL players did Tarasov coach again???

Gorman is much, much more likely to be cohesive with a roster full of players who mostly can do what he wants, all the while being a players coach, who didn't operate like, well, the insane Stalinist regime of the Cold War.
 

VMBM

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You mean because they didn't break his ankle?

There was a well-known incident at the 1974 WHC where Gennady Tsygankov hurt Martinec (who couldn't continue), with Tsygankov later all but admitting that it was deliberate. I remember that a Finnish sports book called "Talviurheilun sankarit" lists a couple of others of similar kind too; at the 1973 WHC and at some Izvestia tournament (1975?). The Czech coach Jan Starsi (exaggeratingly but still) also once wondered why is it that every time the Czechs give the Russians a tough game, Martinec leaves the ice on a stretcher.

So, I'd say that it was somewhere in the same ballpark.
 
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"You're a boring old man"
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You mean because they didn't break his ankle?

There was a well-known incident at the 1974 WHC where Gennady Tsygankov hurt Martinec (who couldn't continue), with Tsygankov later all but admitting that it was deliberate. I remember that a Finnish sports book called "Talviurheilun sankarit" lists a couple of others of similar kind too; at the 1973 WHC and at some Izvestia tournament (1975?). The Czech coach Jan Starsi (exaggeratingly but still) also once wondered why is it that every time the Czechs give the Russians a tough game, Martinec leaves the ice on a stretcher.

So, I'd say that it was somewhere in the same ballpark.

Yeah I remember this being fleshed out reading over the wingers and Euro projects for the HoH section.

You also had a tremendous post with many great videos outlining Martinec's defensive game and strength with the puck on his stick:

VMBM said:
I have no specific interest to 'sell' Martinec here (he's a consensus choice for top 20, right??), but since he is my favourite player, I have naturally followed him somewhat more closely than many other players. One exceptional skill I have noticed was his ability to steal pucks. Some proof:

1972 World Championships, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck in his own zone and sets up Nedomansky for Czecholovakia’s first goal

1976 Olympics, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Viktor Shalimov and makes a play

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Skvortsov and passes it to Novak (don’t listen to the commentary, it’s totally out of sync = irritating!)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR)

- during Canada’s PP, Martinec strips Bill Barber of the puck and clears
- Lapointe mishandles the puck, and Martinec smells blood quickly & gets a great scoring chance

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G1), Martinec just takes the puck from Savard

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2), Martinec steals the puck from Lapointe

1978 World Championships, vs. USSR (final round), Martinec steals the puck during Soviet PP, and has a breakaway (controversy follows)

One thing that I hadn’t paid much attention previously is Martinec’s strength. Only when I saw it mentioned in a Finnish sports book (a mention of Martinec 'manhandling' Ragulin!), I realized that yes, he was a strong player at least for his size, which maybe separated him from e.g. another small 'master technician', Vladimir Vikulov of USSR. Some demonstrations of that:

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR
- Martinec bumps Bilyaletdinov off the puck, sets up Bohuslav Stastny for Czechoslovakia’s 4th goal (again, don’t pay attention to the commentary)
- Martinec shows good strength (with the puck) on the boards during Czechoslovakia’s PP (see above about the commentary)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR), Martinec checks Reggie Leach for a good defensive effort

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2) Martinec strips Bobby Orr of the puck, shows good strength on the boards
 

Namba 17

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You mean because they didn't break his ankle?
It's very hard to find a similar incident in the history of the whole sport, not hockey only.

There was a well-known incident at the 1974 WHC where Gennady Tsygankov hurt Martinec
link? video? I couldn't find anything in I-net.

with Tsygankov later all but admitting
Admitting? When? Where? proof link?

I remember that a Finnish sports book called "Talviurheilun sankarit" lists a couple of others of similar kind too; at the 1973 WHC and at some Izvestia tournament (1975?).
So, we have here some sports book listed something you don't remember exactly... ok, nice.

The Czech coach Jan Starsi (exaggeratingly but still) also once wondered why is it that every time the Czechs give the Russians a tough game, Martinec leaves the ice on a stretcher.
[MOD] Really, you always refer to "this said that", "they voted for this" etc. What said Starsi (if he really said it) is crap and to realize it one should just watch any USSR-CSSR game that can be easily found on you-tube and etc. BOTH teams played very hard. BOTH did some dirty tricks (and I'd say, that CSSR did it more - soviets were not allowed to respond the same way by their governance - which is well-documented instead of your imaginary Martinec hunting). Off course, both teams tried to play especially hard against each other's leaders - it happens all the time, including todays SC and has nothing to do with deliberate hurting opponent's player.
 
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Dreakmur

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I never made a specific, ridiculous claim that all 3 of them were great fore checkers, either Go back and read the first quote you brought up.

You said, "they each have great wingers who are capable of doing what Gorman wants".

Now, I suppose you didn't specifically, say they were great forecheckers, but when you say they are "great" and "capable of doing what Gorman wants", that's still misleading.

Foyston and Martinec are great wingers. I didn't say great fore checkers did I? And Foyston is more than capable of being strong on the check, in either direction. There's first hand examples of that. Been brought up multiple times. Martinec was at the very least a solid defensive winger, so while he wouldn't bang people in the offensive zone he would subscribe to playing good team D. Foyston was plus going back the other way.

Foyston is probably a 2nd line player playing on a first line. I'm not sure I'd call that great. He's a guy who would be ok on the forecheck.

Martinec is probably a below average 1st liner, so again not great.

When Foyston is, by far, your best forechecker, you're line is going to be pretty terrible on the forecheck.

Broadbent was an excellent fore checking winger. That's one of his bread and butter attributes when you read his bio's and game reports. Giroux is more than capable of checking. He's not Gordie Howe, but then again, as I've correctly pointed out and used modern day examples (see below), doesn't have to be. Especially on a line with Punch. Giroux out of position? Damn, 102 points in his first full year on the LW....not sure how that diminishes is offensive value when he just put up the most dominant season of his career....."out of position". If he was "out of position" he probably wouldn't have had a Hart type campaign.

Broadbent is a good mucker, but he's probably best suited to 4th line duty. Likely a good forechecker, but a very weak winger in the overall scheme of things.

Giroux is has 1 season as left winger. He's out of position. Even if he wasn't, he's probably not 2nd line calibre at even strength.

Also, and I know you've denied a few times now, but the Flyers fan you quoted as "proof" he played the whole season at LW also said, in the same quote, that he was moved because playing center has taken a physical toll on him.

So, again, you're selling a guy who couldn't handle the physicality of playing center ice as a guy who's going to do the dirty work for Stewart.

Sheary played on Crosby's line in 2016. Not the 3rd. Last year he played some in the top 6 and some in the bottom 6. I watch all the Pens games.

Sheary may have played shifts on that line, but he was not top 6 in ES ice time. Not a top-6 forward.

Kessel is the most heavily used pure offensive winger in Pitt's system and they've done just fine with him being there.

Yes, you can have a guy or two who don't match the system perfectly.

So cumulatively, the bottom 6 of a hockey team is rarely on the ice? That's a new one. I guess, going to extremes is what some folks do.

With Gretzky, Stewart, and Kennedy up the middle, Getzlaf may as well bring a pillow. He'll be awoken to play the point on the PP and nothing else.

At the end of the day I personally have more of an issue with a culturally and stylistically different coach (Cold War Tarasov) trying to get North American players to buy into his mindset when North Americans played and lived dramatically different than Russian players, in most cases. Nobody wants to dive into that one, do they, when it could absolutely be a real issue when looking at the history of hockey in Russia in the 50-60's? And not just on the ice, but culturally off it as well. How many NHL players did Tarasov coach again???

Gorman is much, much more likely to be cohesive with a roster full of players who mostly can do what he wants, all the while being a players coach, who didn't operate like, well, the insane Stalinist regime of the Cold War.

Yeah, I bet in the Soviet system, you could get unfairly banished and buried out of the league for expressing disagreement with your coach.... oh, wait, that was the NHL. The pre-NHLPA league was essentially a dictatorship.

Today's NHL is no more different than the 1970s Soviet league than it is from the 1930s NHL. It doesn't matter anyway. The ATD is about looking at how players and coaches fared in their own era and under their own rules.

I get it - you're trying to make a case for your team. It would be nice if you did it with a little bit of intellectual integrity.
 
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ImporterExporter

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You said, "they each have great wingers who are capable of doing what Gorman wants".

Now, I suppose you didn't specifically, say they were great forecheckers, but when you say they are "great" and "capable of doing what Gorman wants", that's still misleading.



Foyston is probably a 2nd line player playing on a first line. I'm not sure I'd call that great. He's a guy who would be ok on the forecheck.

Martinec is probably a below average 1st liner, so again not great.

When Foyston is, by far, your best forechecker, you're line is going to be pretty terrible on the forecheck.



Broadbent is a good mucker, but he's probably best suited to 4th line duty. Likely a good forechecker, but a very weak winger in the overall scheme of things.

Giroux is has 1 season as left winger. He's out of position. Even if he wasn't, he's probably not 2nd line calibre at even strength.

Also, and I know you've denied a few times now, but the Flyers fan you quoted as "proof" he played the whole season at LW also said, in the same quote, that he was moved because playing center has taken a physical toll on him.

So, again, you're selling a guy who couldn't handle the physicality of playing center ice as a guy who's going to do the dirty work for Stewart.



Sheary may have played shifts on that line, but he was not top 6 in ES ice time. Not a top-6 forward.



Yes, you can have a guy or two who don't match the system perfectly.



With Gretzky, Stewart, and Kennedy up the middle, Getzlaf may as well bring a pillow. He'll be awoken to play the point on the PP and nothing else.



Yeah, I bet in the Soviet system, you could get unfairly banished and buried out of the league for expressing disagreement with your coach.... oh, wait, that was the NHL. The pre-NHLPA league was essentially a dictatorship.

Today's NHL is no more different than the 1970s Soviet league than it is from the 1930s NHL. It doesn't matter anyway. The ATD is about looking at how players and coaches fared in their own era and under their own rules.

I get it - you're trying to make a case for your team. It would be nice if you did it with a little bit of intellectual integrity.


First off, that bothers me. Nowhere have I been greatly misrepresenting my team. You admitted you didn't even read that last portion about the wingers correctly. You downgrading my wingers is a difference in opinion. Off course I'm going to fight for my guys in debates. Nothing more.

The only place a few people really have any argument against my team is this 2-3 players don't perfectly fit Gorman's style of play.....it's what I keep defending within perfectly good reasaon and around and around we go. Nobody is making ridiculous assertions in either direction. It's just as life. We don't all agree on everything.

Besides that. Giroux. The dude has been in the league for a decade plus haha. You act like he didn't possess the ability to do the dirty work anywhere on the ice for his entire career to the start of this past year. It's absurd. It's perfectly natural to see star players move away from the uber physical style they might have played int their 20's. I repeatedly said Giroux wasn't going to be a good/great fore checker. That is the job of Broadbent. But Giroux IS capable, based on more than a decade of visual evidence. He's not a plus player but he'll stick his nose in there and battle.

Broadbent is a great forechecker. It doesn't matter if it's on the 1st line or 4th. In fact one could argue, correctly, that Broadbent is better served as a 2nd line glue guy, because Punch did win an Art Ross. So the offensive ability is there. Him playing with superior players probably enchances his offensive value.

If you think the NHL is no different than 70's Russia, 30's NHL, etc I don't know what wave length you're on. There are massive rule differences, depth and overall quality of talent over the years, league size, pre-post standard draft, etc, etc, etc.

You even say
The ATD is about looking at how players and coaches fared in their own era and under their own rules.
You're absolutely right. How did Tarasov do coaching NHL players???? That matters. The fact that Tarasov doesn't get a firm top 3 standing all time is because people correctly understand that him being dominant in 1950-60's Russia/Europe was not the same as Toe Blake dominating the 50's NHL or Scotty Bowman doing it over 30 years. You keep yelling about 2-3 people not perfectly fitting Gorman's style and meanwhile I'm calmly pointing out the fact that Tarasov never coach a single NA, NHL player to my knowledge. You can spin that however you want but I (and I'm willing to bet others) would stop and say, well that actually makes some sense/logic. Man raised to despise America and the West. Coached in the very formutive years in Russia and Europe on the whole. And again, he coached a different style, with Nazi SS style order. And he coached players who were raised almost totally different from those growing up in the US and Canada. That matters.

And i don't think any of that is ridiculous or "lacking intellectual integrity".
 
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Dreakmur

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If you think the NHL is no different than 70's Russia, 30's NHL, etc I don't know what wave length you're on.

I said the Russian league was no more different than the 1930s NHL. That means there are differences between the modern NHL and BOTH Gomann's and Tarasov's real experience.

There are massive rule differences, depth and overall quality of talent over the years, league size, pre-post standard draft, etc, etc, etc.

Are you talking about Tarasov's Russia or Gorman's NHL?
 

ImporterExporter

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I said the Russian league was no more different than the 1930s NHL. That means there are differences between the modern NHL and BOTH Gomann's and Tarasov's real experience.

Are you talking about Tarasov's Russia or Gorman's NHL?

I don't think 1950's Russian hockey could compete with the best of the 30's NHL. You can probably lock that statement down throug the early 60's at minimum. In the 30's you had Mornez, Shore, Cook brothers, Conacher's, Frank Boucher, Earl Seibert, Joliat, Schriner, Thompson, King Clancy, Ching Johnson, Ebbie Goodfellow, Charlie Gardiner, George Hainsworth, Tiny Thompson etc, etc.

To be dominating domestic Russia in the 50's would have been like 1910ish in North America IMO. The depth of talent was nowhere what it was in the 60's and beyond, and hockey in general was still in the earlier stages overall.

Tarasov, in real life grew up in Stalinist Russia. You'd have to erase a lifetime of growing up taught to hate the West and it's not like the Russian played a similar brand of hockey in general to the guys in the NHL anyway. I personally think if anyone who knows history thinks about this critically you have to completely assume that North Americans would be willing to listen to a Soviet, hard liner type coach with no issues whatsoever. There were so many wide gaps in culture and learning on the whole between the East and West. I think it absolutely matters if we're going to start splitting hairs with coaching fits.
 

Dreakmur

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I don't think 1950's Russian hockey could compete with the best of the 30's NHL. You can probably lock that statement down throug the early 60's at minimum. In the 30's you had Mornez, Shore, Cook brothers, Conacher's, Frank Boucher, Earl Seibert, Joliat, Schriner, Thompson, King Clancy, Ching Johnson, Ebbie Goodfellow, Charlie Gardiner, George Hainsworth, Tiny Thompson etc, etc.

Well, Tarasov's coaching career encompassed the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, so picking one decade of his career is unfair at best - dishonest at worst.

To be dominating domestic Russia in the 50's would have been like 1910ish in North America IMO. The depth of talent was nowhere what it was in the 60's and beyond, and hockey in general was still in the earlier stages overall.

For players, I would agree. When you can numerically compare players, league competition is important. We're trying to determine a world-wide ranking.

For coaches, it's totally different. The best coach in the world could easily be a coach from a secondary league, and that's what I think Tarasov was. Through coaching innovations, Tarasov build the soviet system from nothing to competing with the best in the world.
 

ImporterExporter

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Well, Tarasov's coaching career encompassed the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, so picking one decade of his career is unfair at best - dishonest at worst.



For players, I would agree. When you can numerically compare players, league competition is important. We're trying to determine a world-wide ranking.

For coaches, it's totally different. The best coach in the world could easily be a coach from a secondary league, and that's what I think Tarasov was. Through coaching innovations, Tarasov build the soviet system from nothing to competing with the best in the world.

I'm not being unfair. And nowhere near dishonest.

I'm aware of Tarasov's coaching career. The 40's are worse than the 50's in the USSR/Europe. The Soviets weren't on the NHL's level until the late 60's by most people's estimation. Most of Tarasov's career was based on beating up on mostly significantly worse opponents on the international scene. And by the time the Soviets started winning some tournaments against Canada and beefed up Czech teams AT had wrapped up his career as a coach. How much credit are you giving Tarasov for winning a bunch of domestic titles in the 40's and 50's for example? Being a dynasty in those leagues is nowhere near the same ballpark as being the Leafs of the 40's, Habs of the 50's/70's or the Leafs of the 60's. At best you're probably looking at early 1900's North American hockey as a cross comparison.

And that's not even the important aspect to discuss. It's how does a man who was raised his entire life to despise the West control with an iron fist North American player who enjoyed more freedoms across the board, and were coached in many different ways compared to Tarasov.
 

Thenameless

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And that's not even the important aspect to discuss. It's how does a man who was raised his entire life to despise the West control with an iron fist North American player who enjoyed more freedoms across the board, and were coached in many different ways compared to Tarasov.

That's why it's also good that the New York Americans have Billy Reay - a guy highly respected by his players. They could play off of each other. You know, "good cop, bad cop". Tarasov being the X's and O's guy and the taskmaster.
 

rmartin65

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Yikes, this thread took an ugly turn. I think it's time for this ATD season to end. Thanks to everyone that participated along the way!
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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That's why it's also good that the New York Americans have Billy Reay - a guy highly respected by his players. They could play off of each other. You know, "good cop, bad cop". Tarasov being the X's and O's guy and the taskmaster.

In theory, I agree. But how often did Tarasov share coaching duties?

It's interesting because Tarasov wasn't even the head coach of the national team between 63-72. So there's another nugget in my favor. Just when Russia would have started to face legitimate competition Tarasov wasn't even the head coach of the national team.

In fact, 1956 the Russians won Gold. Tarasov didn't coach.

1960 Tarasov coached and Russia finished 3rd.

In 64, 68 and 72 the Russians won Gold. Without Tarasov leading the way.

From 1955 through 1962 the Russians didn't win a single Gold in the WC's.

Arkady Chernyshev:

Chernyshev served as Dynamo Moscow club coach, winning twice USSR Champion title (1947, 1954), and also as USSR national team coach from 1948 till 1972, guiding the team to eleven World Champion titles (1954, 1956, 1963—1971), eleven Europe Champion titles (1958—1960, 1963—1970) and four Olympic Champion titles (1956, 1964, 1968, 1972).

Want proof that Tarasov and western Europe players couldn't mix:

Tarasov was a big factor in the development of Tretiak, who was destined to become one of the most skillful and cherished goalies in international history. In the earliest days of his career, Tarasov had him doing three practices a day as hard as possible while using the maximum consumption of oxygen (MCO). In one instance a Swedish player came to practice in the USSR with Tarasov, but he couldn't last. He reportedly said, "We Swedes don't' grow up to practice like this. I don't want to die."

Anatoly Tarasov - Wikipedia
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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So outside of 1958 to 1960 Tarasov didn't even coach the national team. He was an assistant.

Looks like to me his entire ATD value is tied to domestic hockey between the 40's and early 70's. :help:

Couple that with what I'm factually presenting regarding him never having coached North American players and I think the same people (2 people specifically) who are bashing the Pitt roster over 2-3 players not perfectly fitting Tommy Gorman's style, should probably acknowledge what I've brought forth is logical and every bit the "problem" you are trying to nail me on.
 

Namba 17

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I have no interest to provide you anything or, quite frankly, have any contact whatsoever anymore.

Have a nice day.
It's hard to provide smth you have not.
Not the first time, though.
Have a nice day too.
 

Dreakmur

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So outside of 1958 to 1960 Tarasov didn't even coach the national team. He was an assistant.

Looks like to me his entire ATD value is tied to domestic hockey between the 40's and early 70's. :help:

Tarasov ran the show. He was simply called the assistant because Chernychev was better at dealing with the political figures.

Couple that with what I'm factually presenting regarding him never having coached North American players and I think the same people (2 people specifically) who are bashing the Pitt roster over 2-3 players not perfectly fitting Tommy Gorman's style, should probably acknowledge what I've brought forth is logical and every bit the "problem" you are trying to nail me on.

You factually presenting your opinion has not changed my opinion. Your opinion is that Giroux is a great fit for Nels Stewart. I disagree.

Once again, you can say it's 2-3 players all you like.... they are very, very important players.
 

DN28

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Say Hey Kid

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With 12 ballots in, we have a decision. New York Americans defeat Pittsburgh Bankers 4-3.

Stars: Wayne Gretzky***, Brad Park**, Patrick Roy*. HMs to Ted Kennedy, Stan Mikita and Börje Salming.
Posting the results in the right thread.
 

Namba 17

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WHC 1974 2nd game USSR vs. CSSR can be watched here:

Archiv Z: ČSSR - SSSR — Česká televize

Hope it can be streamed from your countries... Tsygankov knocking down Martinec is around 8th minute of the video. Broadcaster also mentioned that Martinec was the leading scorer of the tournament until that incident.
Thanks!
No, unfortunately, it's not available.

Tsygankov own 'summary' of the incident:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/110021873/
So, he didn't "admit" that he deliberately injured player. Or that his aim was to injure. He said "Unfortunately, he had a bad fall".
[MOD]

As I said, it was hard battle from both sides. Starsi said it in hot blood. I'll find a moment, when Bubla slashed Balderis and post it here, just to show that both teams played on edge (but to know this you should watch games and not read books)
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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WHC 1974 2nd game USSR vs. CSSR can be watched here:

Archiv Z: ČSSR - SSSR — Česká televize

Hope it can be streamed from your countries... Tsygankov knocking down Martinec is around 8th minute of the video. Broadcaster also mentioned that Martinec was the leading scorer of the tournament until that incident.

Tsygankov own 'summary' of the incident:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/110021873/

Starsi comments:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/110057709/

Thanks. It's pretty common knowledge to "students" of historical European hockey. I don't understand the denialism from some quarters.
 

Namba 17

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I'll find a moment, when Bubla slashed Balderis
Breaking!!! The Czech book on Soviets was to physically abuse them (similar to how Canada did to Kharlamov)!!! Just look at this blatant slash at 1:00:39:

Oh! Wait! There is nothing about it in Finnish book... hmmm... we can't trust our eyes - we should trust reliable sources...
 

DN28

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Prague
Breaking!!! The Czech book on Soviets was to physically abuse them (similar to how Canada did to Kharlamov)!!! Just look at this blatant slash at 1:00:39:

Oh! Wait! There is nothing about it in Finnish book... hmmm... we can't trust our eyes - we should trust reliable sources...


Did Balderis stop playing the game as a result of that slash?

Did any Soviet player stop playing the game as a result of a dirty play by the Czechoslovak player?

Shame that the video is not available for foreign countries. You would see Tsygankov punching Martinec down like in a boxing match. Certainly not an "overly tough" play that would happen in the "heat of the game". Game lasted only 2 minutes when the attack happened. Martinec did not play a single shift after that.

I would say Finnish sources are actually more trustworthy of describing the Czech-Russian rivalry than either Czech or Russian sources themselves - way more chance of impartial view.
 

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