Speculation: 2018-2019 Roster Discussion #2 - Even Worser!

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rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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I question whether it has, or has not worked though. Had he not brought in the likes of those mentioned (Raanta aside - hardly present), we could easily be far less competitive than we are.
I'm most likely not comprehending what you are saying here, but w/o these guys we'd have a good chance of being often overrun. Prime example would be the loss of Demers - hasn't been positive imo and you can stat against that all you want (wins vs losses before and since etc.), but the difference w/o him is there to see imo.
It's very difficult to put together the right mix and having inexperience and the compounding lack of funds doesn't make it any easier. Folks have different ideas and you have proposed added grit aka a Lucic, or similar type deal and that may be effective and warranted, but we just played two decent periods against the Oilers, in which we were anything but overrun. Play engaged and as we should in the second and who knows.
I’m saying the entire league is eating our lunch anyway.
 
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Dr VinnyBoombatz

formerly ctwin22
Mar 21, 2008
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Personally think the priority list should be (Looking from the outside obviously):
1. Fire Toccett Yes, he needs to be fired - has shown no ability to improve the players or in game adjustments
2. Trade Panik, Connauton and Golo (if possible) Yes, trade Panik, KConn and Gogo
3. Gauge the market on OEL before that contract kicks in (i know people are scared of the message that sends, but realistically the players don't care much, they realize its part of the business and they are living the dream, you just have to make sure the teams better after the trade) Nope, we need to keep the talented guys we have, not get rid of them
4. Get Garland and Bunting competing for a spot and give Capobianco some time in the NHL Yes, both Garland and Bunting provide stuff we're lacking
5. Gauge the market for Stepan for the offseason. I think we need to keep Stepan unless someone is willing to part with a 1st rounder
6. If trading for Picks in the first three rounds, aim for 2020
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
42,632
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I don't actually agree with either of your narratives all that much interesting though they are ;), I think the rebuild was destined to fail without lottery winnings and that's pretty much all there is to it.

But I'll offer my thoughts anyway cause why not.

It was a great theory. The execution failed.

This I agree with. Every time they looked to be going in on something the on ice execution was a half measure.
That said I do not think Keller is the player he is today without the Stepan trade. I think we're all sitting here concerned about what's going on with Keller as opposed to him just having a minor down year. I still make the deal

Barroway was originally part of the power struggle that lost in the fight over to full on buy into the blow it up rebuild and now the team under his ownership is seemingly trying to scrape out wins again over development. Even the owner can't stick to his plans ;)

His rookie season is as stronger or stronger than Chychrun’s was.

2 years later.

I think before now, that was a premature conclusion.

Yes at the time. It's mostly about confirming priors now.

4. This trade is 30-40 games in and you declaring it a major loss? I would love to see what Gally can do with a decent coach personally. Domi was a player to love though and i really liked his game. That said i'm sure everyone knew he wouldn't maintain his hot start and he hasn't, his first 20 games he had 24 points, since then he's had 13 in his last 20 which is not much better than Gally by any means. I'm not saying Arizona won or lost this trade, just that it's to early to hold against Chayka as of now and its not as one sided as it seems.

I think the Domi trade is cause for concern regardless of how it works out in that it's yet another player we've pushed out and or let get away. Domi was one of the most popular players among fans from the second he became a Coyote as well. That maybe shouldn't be a factor in making trades but it doesn't annoy fans any less.

toccett is not a good coach,

I don't think anyone was super thrilled about his initial hiring. I do think he's better now than he was a year ago.
My main complaint is not the system itself but the rigidity of it. How much credit for the team defense improvements belongs to Allen vs Tocchet is up for the debate but I'd hesitate to give Tocchet no credit for it.

I don't think he's the main problem though as I said at the start. If they chucked him overboard I wouldn't cry over it though.

Stepan may be looking slower but he's still a #2 center

ehhhhh. His minutes are just brutal. It's hard to tell if his scoring decline is purely his own decline, linemate effects, or just the type of minutes he's playing. And in what proportions.
I think we don't know if he' still a #2 center. His scoring going down in two successive seasons while league scoring is going up is extremely concerning.


Item #1: Signed Alex Goligoski to big contract

I think if you look at what the defense was before we signed Goligoski you need to take that into consideration. I have way less issues with the signing even in hindsight than either of you. I'd move him though if we could now as we've outgrown him. That's okay. Even if we take a hit on his value, all we lost is money we had to spend somewhere anyway to hit the floor. We didn't trade anything serious for him unlike say if we have to take a loss on Galchenyuk next year. How that goes is critical.

Klas freaking Dahlbeck was playing 71 games for this team. Murphy was stalling and Stone was broken. Broken down Michalek played 70 games. Nicklas f***ing Grossmann played 58. They had to address that and they did. Was the right call at the time. His clause turns to a partial list soon enough.


Anywho, we could fire any of the people involved, or not. I don't think it will change much.
Speaking of confirming priors, I'll just quote myself from three years ago:

I believe that the odds of this team becoming sustainably good are higher with as high a percentage shot at McDavid as possible over the chances of this team actually successfully develop our current crop + whatever the hell we draft this year into a winning team within 5 years. Call it battered Coyotes fan syndrome or whatever. I have absolutely no confidence we are going anywhere through normal-tier blue chip prospects and developing them.

We may still even suck with #1 overall talent. But I think at least we'd have a chance.

Anyway I'm tired of typing now but you get the idea.
 

Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
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I would fire Chayka, Tocchet, and Maclean. Hire Dean Lombardi as GM and hope he picks a decent interim coach until we could ask permission to speak to Keefe and/or Nelson in the offseason.

There is simply no excuse missing the playoffs 7 years in a row.
The very first place I would spend money is the GM slot. Overpay an experienced high performing GM.

Chaka has shown me that analytics win arguments but not games.
 
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Sinurgy

Approaching infinity
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The very first place I would spend money is the GM slot. Overpay an experienced high performing GM.

Chaka has shown me that analytics win arguments but not games.
Analytics is a buzzword for fans but it doesn't mean much, I guarantee you there's not a single team in the NHL that doesn't use analytics. Unless Chayka has some proprietary formulas he's developed, he's not doing anything special from an analytics standpoint than most other GM's. So all things being equal it comes down to domain knowledge and I'm not sure Chayka compares favorably in that department. I'm not ready to run him out of town or anything but thus far his results have been pretty uninspiring. Granted all the injuries have not done him any favors but his stripping the cupboards bare to win now approach hasn't produced much other than making the future seem bleaker than before. It still blows my mind to have gone through so many bad years and STILL not have a star player on the team or even a prospect that projects to be one. f***ing amazing.
 

lanky

Feeling Spicy
Jun 23, 2007
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If Strome, Necas and Deangelo were Coyotes instead of Schmaltz, Stepan and Raanta I would feel much better about this team and the direction it is heading.

Chayka has made some major blunders. If he can acknowledge that and blame it on an impatient owner then I can give him more time to turn it around. If he shifts blame to injuries or players underperforming then he needs to be canned.
 
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hbk

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If Strome, Necas and Deangelo were Coyotes instead of Schmaltz, Stepan and Raanta I would feel much better about this team and the direction it is heading.

Chayka has made some major blunders. If he can acknowledge that and blame it on an impatient owner then I can give him more time to turn it around. If he shifts blame to injuries or players underperforming then he needs to be canned.
I don't think the root of our issues is Chayka.

Rangers didn't take Necas with our pick. 2017 draft is looking below average at this point. It's early though. Hell I had Vilardi at 3OV and the rate he's going he may never have a full healthy NHL season. We'd be livid if he was our pick that year.

I take Scmaaltz, Raanta, and Stepan myself over who the Rangers took in Anderson, Strome, and DeAngelo.
 
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CNYCrunchfan1

Registered User
Oct 10, 2017
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We need to just hire everyone out of Tampa, what an incredible scouting and development staff

Yes on this. I live in Syracuse so go to all the Crunch games the Tampa AHL team and it's amazing how many guys get called up and stick. Its a freaking goldmine that never seems to dry up.
 

lanky

Feeling Spicy
Jun 23, 2007
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I don't think the root of our issues is Chayka.
Agreed. It's ownership. That's why I could stomach Chayka getting a second chance despite his mistakes.

I mentioned Necas because he was my pick and I think he could have been a Chayka pick. I don't think Vilardi could be a Chayka pick.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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Until there is new ownership, Barroway isn't paying 2 coaches and 2 GM's, especially what it would cost to get a proven NHL coach and experienced NHL GM. It won't happen. Now, a new owner will bring in "his own GM" and that GM will hire his own guy as coach.

I don't really have a problem with Chayka's moves, I see why and see the benefits in general. But I think he is inexperienced and will/has make mistakes. I think he has done enough trading and we should stick to what we have now, build some continuity, and see what happens. If we can move Goose/Panik/Kconn sure do it at the TDL or this summer. We won't get much for them, so whatever. We have made enough moves and analytics or not, Chayka isn't smarter than everyone else.

Tocc is getting less with more. Injuries are a legitimate excuse right now but in general, many players are playing below reasonable expectations and nobody is way ahead except Richardson. It seems like the last few years we are under achieving mostly, and sometimes at expectation based on our talent level. But we are never above expectations. Drafting has clearly hurt us as well, seems like we have had more misses than we should over time.

There aren't any quick fixes really. An inexperienced owner/GM/head coach makes it tough to get out of this trap. Ownership has always been an issue but at least with DM/Tip we had proven and experienced leadership, and we had 3 good years. Maybe we caught lightening in a bottle in a way, but they both ran out of mirrors as well.
 
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Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Until there is new ownership, Barroway isn't paying 2 coaches and 2 GM's, especially what it would cost to get a proven NHL coach and experienced NHL GM. It won't happen. Now, a new owner will bring in "his own GM" and that GM will hire his own guy as coach.

I don't really have a problem with Chayka's moves, I see why and see the benefits in general. But I think he is inexperienced and will/has make mistakes. I think he has done enough trading and we should stick to what we have now, build some continuity, and see what happens. If we can move Goose/Panik/Kconn sure do it at the TDL or this summer. We won't get much for them, so whatever. We have made enough moves and analytics or not, Chayka isn't smarter than everyone else.

Tocc is getting less with more. Injuries are a legitimate excuse right now but in general, many players are playing below reasonable expectations and nobody is way ahead except Richardson. It seems like the last few years we are under achieving mostly, and sometimes at expectation based on our talent level. But we are never above expectations. Drafting has clearly hurt us as well, seems like we have had more misses than we should over time.

There aren't any quick fixes really. An inexperienced owner/GM/head coach makes it tough to get out of this trap. Ownership has always been an issue but at least with DM/Tip we had proven and experienced leadership, and we had 3 good years. Maybe we caught lightening in a bottle in a way, but they both ran out of mirrors as well.
Good post. You could add a few more guys to that list as well. Last year everyone had excuses coming out of the ying yang, and this year I'm hearing the same things. You are so right that RT is getting less with more, but many of Chayka's trades were of the "shuffling of chairs" sort of speak. Last year was our worst case scenario where we thought that everything could go wrong, did go wrong and we finished third last. This year we are two points from LAST place. Sure we need more talent but I still think or thought we have enough talent to be sniffing for a playoff spot. You are so right that there are no quick fixes.
 

Mosby

<3 Uncle Gary
Feb 16, 2012
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Between Xmas, moving houses, and starting a new job, I haven't checked in here in about 3 weeks. Haven't seen any games over that time either.

So what I miss? :laugh: I see we're basically right at the bottom now so I imagine Hughes is all the talk around here. Also saw that Galchenyuk is finally playing well, Schmaltz is out for a bit, and Pickard is in the minors. Oh and apparently Shane Doan may be a co-owner.
 
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Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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The very first place I would spend money is the GM slot. Overpay an experienced high performing GM.

Chaka has shown me that analytics win arguments but not games.
Analystics are very important in today's NHL and won't be going away. I would like to see an experienced executive to work with Chayka.
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
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Listen to another Hitchcock presser over on YouTube. I love his pressers. He tells it like it is. Usually he explains what happened during the game, good or bad.
 

hbk

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Mike Gillis. 5 straight division wins in Vancouver and a trip to the Finals.
I was in Van when he was in charge. I don’t think he’s a great hockey mind.

You want change. Bring in Ken Holland as team President when he leaves Detroit in off season. Of course that requires a owner w $.
 

Jamieh

Registered User
Apr 25, 2012
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I was in Van when he was in charge. I don’t think he’s a great hockey mind.

You want change. Bring in Ken Holland as team President when he leaves Detroit in off season. Of course that requires a owner w $.
Mark Hunter would also be a decent choice.
 
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