Prospect Info: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)/Maine Mariners (ECHL) Thread *Part X*

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eco's bones

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Jul 21, 2005
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Down 4-1 in the second Hartford scores 3 in the third including Day's first career AHL goal to tie. Going into OT.

Pack lose 5-4. Lettieri crosschecked in the face (no call) right before Pens take the puck away and score.
 

JHS

Registered User
Oct 11, 2013
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You analogy sucks and the way you evaluate prospects suck too

And your decorum and ability to be a human being is way worse than any of what I’m even worse at according to you- added you to the ignore list!

Apparently the Rangers agree with me. Lias still not up, they’d rather have Brendan Smith play forward and Cody Brinkley... I win!
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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Apr 11, 2011
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And your decorum and ability to be a human being is way worse than any of what I’m even worse at according to you- added you to the ignore list!

Apparently the Rangers agree with me. Lias still not up, they’d rather have Brendan Smith play forward and Cody Brinkley... I win!

Tone aside, he has a valid point though. Comparing Lias to most prospects picked in the 7-12 range is difficult because only a few of them actually played in the AHL in their first 2 seasons after being drafted. Guys like Couture, Scheifele, Koivu, Granlund, Niederreiter did not play in the AHL (aside from an ATO) in their first 2 seasons after the draft.

Bringing up what Lias has done in SuperElit at age 16 is a valid point. Same goes for what Lias has done at age 17 in the SHL, and being an important contributor at age 18 on the SHL championship team. While Lias has been disappointing after being sent down in December, I have to admit that I am curious at what Lias could have done had his path taken him elsewhere. I am confident that if Lias was playing in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL after the draft, he would tear that up as much as guys like Couture, Niederreiter and Scheifele. I am also confident he would have a very impressive season in the SHL if he was left there for another season. The Rangers need for control is what is hurting Lias in a way, although he is not blameless.

I never felt bringing him over to the AHL was the best approach for his development. It's different with Chytil who comes from a clearly inferior league (CZ ELH). Let these kids develop in their own evironment. That's also why I am not a fan of Kravtsov coming over at age 19. It is a big change. A big culture shock. When I was 21, I moved to South Africa, and I was struggling with everything. Daily life, communication, getting used to the habits in a different country, and I was a 12-hour flight removed from anyone I knew. That can hit you hard. If you then pair that with some bumps in the road career-wise (Lias with his demotion, I had some adjustment issues at work as well) and there is no one familiar to help you out, it can really weigh you down.

I am not trying to make excuses for Lias, but do feel that people often overlook what an impact it has on a teenager to move that far from home. Some people handle it better than others, and having success definitely helps (Chytil, Pettersson). Look at the European players from that draft year currently in the AHL: Necas, Brannstrom, Andersson, Vaakanainen, Liljegren, Tolvanen, Kostin. And aside from Brannstrom, none of them are really lightning it up in the AHL.

Do I expect Lias to be better? Yes
Is it fair to label him a failure/bust at age 20? No
Do I think there are other factors involved? For sure


Regarding @ManUtdTobbe I can say this: Don't put him on your ignore list. He can be a bit direct at times (Same for me). It's just the European way. That's how we talk. But he's one of the more knowledgeable posters we have here.
 

Vitto79

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May 24, 2008
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Fogarty with 10 points in his last 12 games

He’s a ufa at years end but they may call him up with the incoming trades .... unless he’s traded , same w Gilmour ... I could see them as bodies in deals if they have no plan to resign
 
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JHS

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Oct 11, 2013
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Tone aside, he has a valid point though. Comparing Lias to most prospects picked in the 7-12 range is difficult because only a few of them actually played in the AHL in their first 2 seasons after being drafted. Guys like Couture, Scheifele, Koivu, Granlund, Niederreiter did not play in the AHL (aside from an ATO) in their first 2 seasons after the draft.

Bringing up what Lias has done in SuperElit at age 16 is a valid point. Same goes for what Lias has done at age 17 in the SHL, and being an important contributor at age 18 on the SHL championship team. While Lias has been disappointing after being sent down in December, I have to admit that I am curious at what Lias could have done had his path taken him elsewhere. I am confident that if Lias was playing in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL after the draft, he would tear that up as much as guys like Couture, Niederreiter and Scheifele. I am also confident he would have a very impressive season in the SHL if he was left there for another season. The Rangers need for control is what is hurting Lias in a way, although he is not blameless.

I never felt bringing him over to the AHL was the best approach for his development. It's different with Chytil who comes from a clearly inferior league (CZ ELH). Let these kids develop in their own evironment. That's also why I am not a fan of Kravtsov coming over at age 19. It is a big change. A big culture shock. When I was 21, I moved to South Africa, and I was struggling with everything. Daily life, communication, getting used to the habits in a different country, and I was a 12-hour flight removed from anyone I knew. That can hit you hard. If you then pair that with some bumps in the road career-wise (Lias with his demotion, I had some adjustment issues at work as well) and there is no one familiar to help you out, it can really weigh you down.

I am not trying to make excuses for Lias, but do feel that people often overlook what an impact it has on a teenager to move that far from home. Some people handle it better than others, and having success definitely helps (Chytil, Pettersson). Look at the European players from that draft year currently in the AHL: Necas, Brannstrom, Andersson, Vaakanainen, Liljegren, Tolvanen, Kostin. And aside from Brannstrom, none of them are really lightning it up in the AHL.

Do I expect Lias to be better? Yes
Is it fair to label him a failure/bust at age 20? No
Do I think there are other factors involved? For sure


Regarding @ManUtdTobbe I can say this: Don't put him on your ignore list. He can be a bit direct at times (Same for me). It's just the European way. That's how we talk. But he's one of the more knowledgeable posters we have here.

I’ll accept the lack of knowledge as I don’t need to be insulted just because I disagree!

Anyway, I get what people who compare same level competition for Lias are trying to prove. Here’s my point all along— he does not have the skill set required to be successful in the NHL. He’s not fast enough right now to compete in the league and the league will only get faster. Without speed, intangibles mean nothing. He could get away with being an average skater in leagues where players are all average to below average skaters.

I’ve said throughout this— I hope I’m wrong about Lias. I’m not rooting against him but I firmly believe that unless he improves his skating, he won’t make much of an impact in the NHl.

Your point about adjusting to the culture and new life over here is a valid one. Maybe it actually speaks to why North American born players make for safer picks— far less variables to adjust to!
 
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nyr2k2

Can't Beat Him
Jul 30, 2005
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CC: @Trxjw

The original Steven Fogarty truther
I take exception to that! It was Trxjw and I both, and I believe Sarge13 as well, that said Fogarty played a pro-game and dismissed the claims of a certain other poster that his P/G was too low to ever have a pro career, and that he'd be ECHL caliber. :)

And for what it matters, the same also holds true for Nieves, though the criticisms of him were not as strong.
 
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Amazing Kreiderman

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I take exception to that! It was Trxjw and I both, and I believe Sarge13 as well, that said Fogarty played a pro-game and dismissed the claims of a certain other poster that his P/G was too low to ever have a pro career, and that he'd be ECHL caliber. :)

And for what it matters, the same also holds true for Nieves, though the criticisms of him were not as strong.

Isn't ECHL still pro hockey?
 
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Amazing Kreiderman

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Apr 11, 2011
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Yeah, for sure. I guess I worded that poorly; it was more along the lines of "could he have any kind of NHL career or good AHL career, or would he be an ECHL-caliber guy."

Ah, great. I was confused for a second there. Thinking if it was maybe semi-pro. Ask me anything about EU leagues and its structure but the ECHL is a bit of a black hole for me
 

nyr2k2

Can't Beat Him
Jul 30, 2005
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Anyway, while I think Fogarty is probably done here (he himself may want to leave for a shot elsewhere), I could totally get behind bringing him back. He wears an A in Hartford and is one of the few players whose effort can't really be questioned. He's been good all season and seems to have figured out how to be a very good player at that level. He can play all three situations and be effective with skills guys or other utility players. Nice guy to have. And I think he can step into the NHL in a pinch and do fine on the fourth line, maybe not picking up points but working the cycle, playing hard in the corners, backchecking, etc.
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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Ah, great. I was confused for a second there. Thinking if it was maybe semi-pro. Ask me anything about EU leagues and its structure but the ECHL is a bit of a black hole for me
don't worry, AK, YOU KINDA get to know the E real quick when you recognize Hartford and other teams they've played before it really doesn't take long as to how the structure works, even if you don't see every team
 

Amazing Kreiderman

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
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I’ll accept the lack of knowledge as I don’t need to be insulted just because I disagree!

Anyway, I get what people who compare same level competition for Lias are trying to prove. Here’s my point all along— he does not have the skill set required to be successful in the NHL. He’s not fast enough right now to compete in the league and the league will only get faster. Without speed, intangibles mean nothing. He could get away with being an average skater in leagues where players are all average to below average skaters.

I’ve said throughout this— I hope I’m wrong about Lias. I’m not rooting against him but I firmly believe that unless he improves his skating, he won’t make much of an impact in the NHl.

Your point about adjusting to the culture and new life over here is a valid one. Maybe it actually speaks to why North American born players make for safer picks— far less variables to adjust to!

The Rangers have been targeting prospects and players who are from pro hockey families the last few years. I wondered for a while if there is a certain thought process behind it.

Kevin Hayes
Lias Andersson
Patrik Virta
Simon Kjellberg
Jacob Ragnarsson
Adam Tambellini
Jimmy Vesey
Vladislav Namestnikov
Ty Ronning
Brett Howden

It could just be a coincidence


Fun fact: Namestnikov's and Ronning's dad played together in Vancouver the year they lost the SCF to the Rangers ;)
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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I’ll accept the lack of knowledge as I don’t need to be insulted just because I disagree!

Anyway, I get what people who compare same level competition for Lias are trying to prove. Here’s my point all along— he does not have the skill set required to be successful in the NHL. He’s not fast enough right now to compete in the league and the league will only get faster. Without speed, intangibles mean nothing. He could get away with being an average skater in leagues where players are all average to below average skaters.

I’ve said throughout this— I hope I’m wrong about Lias. I’m not rooting against him but I firmly believe that unless he improves his skating, he won’t make much of an impact in the NHl.

Your point about adjusting to the culture and new life over here is a valid one. Maybe it actually speaks to why North American born players make for safer picks— far less variables to adjust to!

The counterpoint to the culture thing is that most European players are playing against adults, and so teams will have a better idea of how they perform in that situation. It's why I actually prefer picks from Europe. Far less likelihood of a given player just overwhelming against kids he's bigger and stronger than
 
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nyr2k2

Can't Beat Him
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean it's tough to question the Canadian system of developing players, from novice up through midget and junior. They churn out an enormous amount of stellar players. In the US we're not far behind at this point and NCAA hockey is becoming increasingly attractive for the top players in North America (and, also, from overseas).

I like drafting Europeans as well; I just stated how I like guys from Swedish leagues. The aspect of playing against adults is great, but at the same time you have to consider the differences in playing styles and all that, as well as the fact that it's a different quality of men as what they'll encounter in the NHL or even the AHL.

I don't think an organization should target one over the other (NA vs. European/Russian). You need to look at the guys on their own merits.
 
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Trxjw

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May 8, 2007
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I take exception to that! It was Trxjw and I both, and I believe Sarge13 as well, that said Fogarty played a pro-game and dismissed the claims of a certain other poster that his P/G was too low to ever have a pro career, and that he'd be ECHL caliber. :)

And for what it matters, the same also holds true for Nieves, though the criticisms of him were not as strong.

:laugh:

Absolutely. You, me and BN have been the chairs of the Fogarty fan club for a long time. I just hope the guy gets a legitimate crack with this team as a 4th line player.
 

Irishguy42

Mr. Preachy
Sep 11, 2015
26,804
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NJ
Lias is now the 1C with Holland gone..

Think they keep his line intact and just make it the top line, or just move him up and give him Beleskey and Butler as his wingers?
 

nyr2k2

Can't Beat Him
Jul 30, 2005
45,685
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Maryland
So.... How's Hajek progressing?
He's not. Not lately. The whole team has been horrid. The only prospects that have been doing anything lately, IMO, have been Lettieri, Gropp, Gettinger, and Lindgren. Day had a nice weekend but is still meh. Andersson has been pretty bad, Fontaine has been invisible for a while now, and Meskanen has fallen off a cliff and might be injured (I know he just missed some games but I don't know why). Crawley is injured, Bigras seems to have stagnated, and Hajek looks defeated. He looks like he's aware he hasn't been playing very well and it's taking a toll on him, making it even worse.

Halverson alternates good and bad games. Thinking he's gone.
 

Levitate

Registered User
Jul 29, 2004
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7,692
whole team seems down in a hole, maybe the end of the season can't come fast enough

This is also why rebuilding with super crappy NHL teams is a bad thing
 
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