Line Combos: 2018-19 Roster Thread - Perry who?

[Static]

I think he had the same coaching flaws then as he does now, but simply had far better top end players (especially on D), and benefitted when he had a GM go got him the players who fit his system instead of giving him parts and saying “use them” - he told Selanne to play a system that didn’t suit him but Selanne just ignored him. As soon as BM stopped doing that, he started struggling.

People have been saying since about 2008 that any of a half dozen coaches could easily have taken that ‘07 team to the Cup, that’s not even remotely a new sentiment. Outside of that year, what top coach has he ever actually outcoached? That should be part of considering him “top coach”, no?

This assumes that anyone here even knows what outcoaching looks like. I don't. I've been watching hockey for 25 years and I don't know the ins and outs of tactics and what coach is making good in-game adjustments over bad ones.

If you do, then that's great, you're more qualified than I. But people saying, "any coach would have won" is disingenuous and lazy unless they really know what they are talking about.

Carlyle's system seemed to become stale once the speed of the game increased. That shouldn't matter for our team though because the team isn't fast. His problem seems to be getting players to actually play the system, because when they do it's effective. He should have been fired for the motivation issues, not tactical.

But really, what is the point of going back in time and taking credit away? Ammunition for not liking him now? What is the need for that when most, if not all don't think he should be the current coach?

Furthermore, the whole, "he only won with elite talent", yeah no shit. Show me a coach who doesn't.

 

[Ducks DVM]

This assumes that anyone here even knows what outcoaching looks like. I don't. I've been watching hockey for 25 years and I don't know the ins and outs of tactics and what coach is making good in-game adjustments over bad ones.

If you do, then that's great, you're more qualified than I. But people saying, "any coach would have won" is disingenuous and lazy unless they really know what they are talking about.

Carlyle's system seemed to become stale once the speed of the game increased. That shouldn't matter for our team though because the team isn't fast. His problem seems to be getting players to actually play the system, because when they do it's effective. He should have been fired for the motivation issues, not tactical.

But really, what is the point of going back in time and taking credit away? Ammunition for not liking him now? What is the need for that when most, if not all don't think he should be the current coach?

Furthermore, the whole, "he only won with elite talent", yeah no ****. Show me a coach who doesn't.

Changing zone entries, line combos and matchups, and defending zone entries in a manner that shuts the other team down. Chicago vs BB, Nashville vs RC. Playing chess with the matchups and winning. Outside of Babcock in ‘07, I don’t recall RC beating a coach who would be considered a “top coach”, and I think that is a necessity to be a “top playoff coach” (that’s just me though).

Part of the issue with the RC system is that it didn’t age well with speed, but part of the issue with the ‘07 system was that it also relied on simply bullying the other teams knowing that the NHL officials wouldn’t call everything, and having an elite PK system for the ones they did call. The team is arguably still paying a price for that strategy, and the league fixed that particular loophole in the officiating as well. He needs another trick.

Agreed that the system works when played. But it only works with certain player types, of which I’m not convinced he has enough of, and when the players are motivated, which they clearly aren’t. A good coach changes his system to fit his parts, he doesn’t complain in the press conference that for the 30th time this season the players aren’t doing what he told them to do.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I'd say Darryl Sutter, Jacques Lemaire and Joel Quenneville are/were top coaches. Quenneville in particular is probably a pretty great example of the ability of outsiders and maybe even insiders to evaluate these guys.

 

[KyleJRM]

Check out Quenneville's record in playoff series that go late. The later it goes, the better his teams get. That's his adjustments.

 

[Paul4587]

Check out Quenneville's record in playoff series that go late. The later it goes, the better his teams get. That's his adjustments.

He absolutely destroyed BB in that regard in 2015. That (and Andersen massively choking) was the biggest reason we lost the series.

 

[AngelDuck]

He absolutely destroyed BB in that regard in 2015. That (and Andersen massively choking) was the biggest reason we lost the series.

Keith was also the best player on the ice on a nightly basis that series. By a mile. Playing 32 minutes, producing offensively, etc.

But yeah, was not the best stuff from the coach and Andersen

 

[91Fedorov]

Me and my cousin went to that game. We car pooled with his neighbor's 3 out of state family members. Hawks fans of course. That was a crappy ride back. Damn BB and Andersen!!

 

[Static]

I don't know if I buy the coaching stuff in 2015. Bounces killed us. We lost two multiple OT games in that series that were coinflips.

Everyone points out the blowing of the series lead, but man looking back it was just wasn't meant to be.

 

[Paul4587]

I don't know if I buy the coaching stuff in 2015. Bounces killed us. We lost two multiple OT games in that series that were coinflips.

Everyone points out the blowing of the series lead, but man looking back it was just wasn't meant to be.

We were getting the better of the series and Q put Toews and Kane together and went out of his way to match them against Getzlaf and Perry and BB had absolutely no answer. He didn’t try to line match, he didn’t switch Getzlaf and Kesler or even try to load up Getzlaf and Kesler at times. It was frustrating to watch him try and run with the same game plan.

In his defense the whole series turned when Andersen gave up that goal to Toews just before OT. Even though we won that game Andersen absolutely crumbled after that.

 

[Static]

We were getting the better of the series and Q put Toews and Kane together and went out of his way to match them against Getzlaf and Perry and BB had absolutely no answer. He didn’t try to line match, he didn’t switch Getzlaf and Kesler or even try to load up Getzlaf and Kesler at times. It was frustrating to watch him try and run with the same game plan.

In his defense the whole series turned when Andersen gave up that goal to Toews just before OT. Even though we won that game Andersen absolutely crumbled after that.

That's fair.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Our roster is thoroughly mediocre. I am only really looking forward to how the youth does. Bob has failed again

 

[KaseMeOutside]

We were getting the better of the series and Q put Toews and Kane together and went out of his way to match them against Getzlaf and Perry and BB had absolutely no answer. He didn’t try to line match, he didn’t switch Getzlaf and Kesler or even try to load up Getzlaf and Kesler at times. It was frustrating to watch him try and run with the same game plan.

In his defense the whole series turned when Andersen gave up that goal to Toews just before OT. Even though we won that game Andersen absolutely crumbled after that.

Thank you for pointing this out. I believe we would have won that series if Andersen didn't give up those two goals to Toews. Chicago basically started throwing everything at the net

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Our roster is definitely not mediocre, but you wouldn't know it to watch them play.

 

[KeepItDeep]

This assumes that anyone here even knows what outcoaching looks like. I don't. I've been watching hockey for 25 years and I don't know the ins and outs of tactics and what coach is making good in-game adjustments over bad ones.

If you do, then that's great, you're more qualified than I. But people saying, "any coach would have won" is disingenuous and lazy unless they really know what they are talking about.

Carlyle's system seemed to become stale once the speed of the game increased. That shouldn't matter for our team though because the team isn't fast. His problem seems to be getting players to actually play the system, because when they do it's effective. He should have been fired for the motivation issues, not tactical.

But really, what is the point of going back in time and taking credit away? Ammunition for not liking him now? What is the need for that when most, if not all don't think he should be the current coach?

Furthermore, the whole, "he only won with elite talent", yeah no ****. Show me a coach who doesn't.

I find it curious that you don't trust "anyone here" with all the valid insights that are being given to you (and there are a lot of good ones so far from people that really "know the ins and out of tactics" and have given cogent reasoning for their opinions).

If you genuinely want to learn more about tactics that relate specifically to these issues, then please go to the Maple Leafs board here and read the prolific response to this very issue when Carlyle was their coach. There's probably at least 10 times as many postings on this there as there are here on this very issue. Let me forewarn you that you will find a lot stronger discontent with RC's coaching acumen there, and probably even a higher percentage of the posts are on the negative side of of the debate. And please, don't write it off in advance because of the spectacular fizz-out their Carlyle-led team had in '13.

While there is a whole lot of what is respectfully called "noise" over on that board, because of the sheer size of their fan base and longevity of interest and participation in the game, there's a lot of hockey knowledge there, too.

 

[Static]

I'm not going to the toronto board to learn anything. If I really want to learn coaching tacticts to the extent that I can easily say what coach is good and who is bad then I will visit objective areas of true experitse.

Thank you though.

 

[Exit Dose]

No problem was ever solved by going to the Leafs board.

 

[imjustzach]

Man that Skinner return is brutal. If that's what the market for top 6 wingers is, I'm doubling down on not wanting Silf to get moved.

 

[Exit Dose]

It's not really brutal at all. Remember where Buffalo is likely to be sitting in the standings next season and that 2nd round pick makes more sense. It's basically a late 1st, high 3rd, 6th, and a good prospect.

 

[imjustzach]

It's not really brutal at all. Remember where Buffalo is likely to be sitting in the standings next season and that 2nd round pick makes more sense. It's basically a late 1st, high 3rd, 6th, and a good prospect.

It's possible but that's far from a sure thing. The Sabres are still rebuilding so they probably won't be a contender for a few years but they add a really strong winger in Skinner. Plus if Mittelstadt becomes a regular fixture, he could put up some solid numbers for them. He looked really good for a rookie in his short stint last season. They also have other young talent like Tage Thompson and Sam Reinhart who could add some improved secondary scoring for them. Losing ROR hurts but Mittelstadt, Skinner, and Sheary should be able to help pick up the offense.

Also, their defense was atrocious last season so the addition of Dahlin should help that a lot. Also, if Zach Bogosian is healthy (and can stay healthy), that's another solid D they didn't have last year. Risto is always good but he's just one guy. Having Bogo and Dahlin on the blueline should go a long way in improving that team's D for the coming season.

They're obviously gearing to contend in a few years after their young guys get more NHL experience and development but I wouldn't be surprised to see them have a decent year and be a fringe team this season.

 

[Trojans86]

We were getting the better of the series and Q put Toews and Kane together and went out of his way to match them against Getzlaf and Perry and BB had absolutely no answer. He didn’t try to line match, he didn’t switch Getzlaf and Kesler or even try to load up Getzlaf and Kesler at times. It was frustrating to watch him try and run with the same game plan.

In his defense the whole series turned when Andersen gave up that goal to Toews just before OT. Even though we won that game Andersen absolutely crumbled after that.

Yep, I remember that clearly and that is good coaching that isnt hard to see. It was clear they made a change that shifted the series in their favor and we had no answer.

You can also see the quality of coaching when there are coaching changes.

Another way you can good or bad coaching is lineup decisions. For example how much we played Bieksa when he was very clearly killing us. Every metric said he was horrible. Every fan except Dirk could see it and RC didnt realize it until Bieksa got hurt and our team got drastically better playing the young kids.

 

[Trojans86]

I don't know if I buy the coaching stuff in 2015. Bounces killed us. We lost two multiple OT games in that series that were coinflips.

Everyone points out the blowing of the series lead, but man looking back it was just wasn't meant to be.

Bounces did absolutely kill us and we could've easily won that series but towards the end of the series they had clearly figured out a way to beat us and outplay us and we had no answer.

 

[Exit Dose]

It's pretty rare for a first year defenseman to do that. It's even rarer for the most highly touted d prospects to do that right out of the draft. Ekblad is the only one that I can remember pulling that off in recent years. Even Hedman and Doughty weren't able to pull that off.

The scenario that you're describing has an outside chance of happening, but the gamble that Carolina made is the safer bet to lay.

 

[ADHB]

Bounces did absolutely kill us and we could've easily won that series but towards the end of the series they had clearly figured out a way to beat us and outplay us and we had no answer.

It's no guarantee but a good starting point would've simply been to not allow the Toews line to be out against Getzlaf as opposed to Kesler. And there's zero reason to allow them to get the matchup they wanted in game 7 when we were at home. But BB didn't even consider it, which was inexcusable.

 

[Trojans86]

Coaching in a playoff series is similar to coaching in football where the teams of good coaches seem to get better later in the series/game. Think about Belicheck in the Super Bowl.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Our roster is definitely not mediocre, but you wouldn't know it to watch them play.

Yes it is, this is a bubble team we're not likely to get as good of goaltending this year, which was arguably the best. We were a bad defensive team carried by it and I don't see how you can say this team is any better than when we last saw them, unless young players can step in and contribute right now