2018-19 Roster talk; Part two

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Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
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There is no way to justify the Flyers trading a 1st for Quick on his current contract.

If you think it's worthwhile to discuss acquiring him, ok sure, even if I don't agree. But not at that cost. Not even close to that cost.

I also enjoy the “expansion draft” argument, equating him to Fleury (in general it always tickles my funny bone when someone suggests making a trade/signing with plans to get rid of the player). I think people need to do the math on that one. Fleury was 32-33 his first season. Quick will be 35-36 his first expansion season. Signed for 2 more years until age 38. Attractive! Especially if his injuries continue to erode playing time or performance.
 

baudib1

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The current market rate is roughly 1 1st round pick for 4 months of a 34-year-old goalie. So 1 for Quick isn't so bad.
 

baudib1

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But making a dent into 8 points is improbable because of the current system set up. Can keep going to the well. It might be pretty solid but you need to be remarkable down the stretch to actually overcome that gap. I believe we gained one point or something since December 12th or something. It’s all about the teams above you. You really need to have long winning streaks to start to battle back.

I think we can pass Pittsburgh.
 

baudib1

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I'd rather drink bleach than trade our first this year, especially for a goaltender. Ok, that might be hyperbole, but just barely.

No one is advocating trading our first, which won't be Jack Hughes anyway.

It's Simmonds for Quick.

This isn't real talk anyway, so nvm.
 

Psuhockey

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
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I also enjoy the “expansion draft” argument, equating him to Fleury (in general it always tickles my funny bone when someone suggests making a trade/signing with plans to get rid of the player). I think people need to do the math on that one. Fleury was 32-33 his first season. Quick will be 35-36 his first expansion season. Signed for 2 more years until age 38. Attractive! Especially if his injuries continue to erode playing time or performance.
If they can get Quick for cheap, I don’t think it will hurt them capwise though.

The Flyers are currently paying $5.25 for Elliott and Neuvirth. A Quick Hart pair would be $6.53 until 2021. After that Hart will still be cheap on a bridge deal. Murray got a $3.75 bridge after winning two cups so Hart’s bridge should be considerably less. So maybe Hart gets $2 mil making the goalie total to approx $8 for two more years. It’s a lot but not a cap killer.
 

baudib1

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If they can get Quick for cheap, I don’t think it will hurt them capwise though.

The Flyers are currently paying $5.25 for Elliott and Neuvirth. A Quick Hart pair would be $6.53 until 2021. After that Hart will still be cheap on a bridge deal. Murray got a $3.75 bridge after winning two cups so Hart’s bridge should be considerably less. So maybe Hart gets $2 mil making the goalie total to approx $8 for two more years. It’s a lot but not a cap killer.

What makes you think Hart is going to win fewer than 2 Cups between now and 2021?
 

Tripod

I hate this team
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When Hak was fired, we were 8 points out of a playoff spot.

We went 3-1 under Gordon.

And are still 8 points out of a playoff spot.

The issue is not only the points you need to make up over the #8 guy, it's all the teams in between that you also have to leapfrog. We caught 2 point on the NYI who held the #8 spot on Dec 17th, but we caught nothing on Pitt who jumped past NYI.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
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He was definitely great on that 5-3 PK, playing to his strengths of just getting in the way of the shooter. The offense is just him being lucky. And he's NOT GOOD in his own end. I HATE the way he plays defense. HATE it. HATE, HATE, HATE it.

It's just him running around his own end a step behind the offense pinning guys to the wall whenever he can catch them but never recovering the puck, or if he does, unable to skate or pass it out. It's all passive reactive stuff that allows him to post gaudy hit and blocked shot totals and people confuse that for good defense. The next time he anticipates a play like Ghost does regularly and breaks it up before it even starts (and then sends the puck the other way for a scoring chance) will be the first time he's ever done it. He's been better this year and frankly he's been tolerable, but last year he was my least favorite player on a team that included Brandon freaking Manning.

Far from having some high pedestal, I think too many people have ridiculously low expectations of what an NHL player should be able to accomplish on the ice.
BUT BUT BUT +7!!!!!

As we all know, +/- is what people use when they have valid defense of a player. It’s not at all a weak Hail Mary in the hopes that the person they’re talking to is too stupid to realize what a useless stat it is. :sarcasm:
 

Magua

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If they can get Quick for cheap, I don’t think it will hurt them capwise though.

The Flyers are currently paying $5.25 for Elliott and Neuvirth. A Quick Hart pair would be $6.53 until 2021. After that Hart will still be cheap on a bridge deal. Murray got a $3.75 bridge after winning two cups so Hart’s bridge should be considerably less. So maybe Hart gets $2 mil making the goalie total to approx $8 for two more years. It’s a lot but not a cap killer.

Well, it depends on what acquiring him "cheap" means, but I doubt it will be cap dump cheap. Quick isn't signed for 2 years either. His cap hit isn't bad, if he can play. That trade is almost entirely contingent on risk factor. Because he's had injury issues the last 2 seasons. He's about to turn 33 and is signed until 38. Almost $6 mil for a severely declining goalie, or more favorably, one who is good but in-and-out of the lineup (like Elliott but much more expensive), can quickly turn into a sunk cost and cap problem.

I don't view Quick as a goalie with much margin for error with age, and that's the root of my issue. People need to understand that if you trade for him as a 1-2 year bridge.......you're likely keeping him for his entire contract. Unless you buy him out or pay to dump him.
 

baudib1

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This is the Flyers, no one plays out their contracts here.

Two amusing bits from Philly media members:

- Glen Macnow and the Twitterverse couldn't figure out who the best Flyer to play his entire career in Philly since Bobby Clarke is. I followed the thread and didn't see a single player who played his entire career here.
- Bill Matz is amused by the idea of the Flyers trading for and re-signing Jeff Carter so that the Flyers are the only NHL team he'll ever sign a contract with.
 

BritainStix

F**k Cutter Gauthier
Oct 20, 2016
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He was definitely great on that 5-3 PK, playing to his strengths of just getting in the way of the shooter. The offense is just him being lucky. And he's NOT GOOD in his own end. I HATE the way he plays defense. HATE it. HATE, HATE, HATE it.

It's just him running around his own end a step behind the offense pinning guys to the wall whenever he can catch them but never recovering the puck, or if he does, unable to skate or pass it out. It's all passive reactive stuff that allows him to post gaudy hit and blocked shot totals and people confuse that for good defense. The next time he anticipates a play like Ghost does regularly and breaks it up before it even starts (and then sends the puck the other way for a scoring chance) will be the first time he's ever done it. He's been better this year and frankly he's been tolerable, but last year he was my least favorite player on a team that included Brandon freaking Manning.

Far from having some high pedestal, I think too many people have ridiculously low expectations of what an NHL player should be able to accomplish on the ice.

The Ghost comparison is really good actually. When the play is infront of Ghost, hes very good defensively, breaks up many rushes and posts great Corsi numbers because hes effective in the neutral zone. He is very much a positive player and is a credit to the flyers, hence why he plays so much.

The trouble comes when he actually has to defend for the other 47% in his own end when the puck is down low or beneath the hash marks. He often gets bullied by larger wingers with a greater stick length, and loses more board battles than he wins. He's still a plus player, but if the puck is down low with the opposition set up, hes not my first choice.

But here is the absolute kicker!!! And oh boy is it a big one. Ghost is paid 4.5 million dollars a year to play a bigger part on the team than Hagg. Hagg is paid to be a 5th/6th defenseman. Hagg is literally paid to get on the ice and ensure that he doesnt negatively affect the team, to absorb some minutes so that we can roll out rested better defenseman who can push the play. He isnt there to create offense, thats not his game at all.

People don't confuse it with good defense, we just appreciate the role that he plays. You don't roll 6 offensive defenseman for a reason. His goals arent "luck" either. Love how you can use that to discredit a player. Hagg had proper offensive chops in Junior, its still there, he just needs way more time than he gets at the pro level.

Litterally getting worked up on one of the smallest parts of the team that isnt even a negative. You should probably just aim all that angst against someone like Weise or Simmonds, who really are negatives at this point in time.
 
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StoneHands

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Feb 26, 2013
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When Hak was fired, we were 8 points out of a playoff spot.

We went 3-1 under Gordon.

And are still 8 points out of a playoff spot.

The issue is not only the points you need to make up over the #8 guy, it's all the teams in between that you also have to leapfrog. We caught 2 point on the NYI who held the #8 spot on Dec 17th, but we caught nothing on Pitt who jumped past NYI.
Not only that but we technically dropped further out of the playoff picture because during the time the Flyers went 3-1, the Pens went 3-0 so we didn't bridge any of the 8 point gap in points and we lost a game in hand.

After tonight they need to go on a nice run if they want to get themselves back into the bubble. 6 of the next 10 are out of playoff range right now and they realistically need 15 or more points in those games to give themselves a shot down the stretch and even then they have a lot of work to do and that probably only makes up 2-3 points in the standings.
 
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Psuhockey

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People need to understand that if you trade for him as a 1-2 year bridge.......you're likely keeping him for his entire contract. Unless you buy him out or pay to dump him.
I get that and with a cheap Hart bridge, him being an overpaided backup won’t kill the Flyers cap the last two years of his deal. It would be no different then riding out Lehtera’s crap contract. I would much rather them go a different direction but if LA is just going to dump him, it would not be the worst move they could make.
 

kudymen

Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
Jun 18, 2011
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Hagg is +7 at 1.15M, i.e. 164k per positive point.

G is +4 at 8.275M, i.e. 2.068M per positive point.

According to my newly invented stat we should trade G for approx. (2.068/0.164) 12.5 Haggs.
 
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Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
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I get that and with a cheap Hart bridge, him being an overpaided backup won’t kill the Flyers cap the last two years of his deal. It would be no different then riding out Lehtera’s crap contract. I would much rather them go a different direction but if LA is just going to dump him, it would not be the worst move they could make.

Well, Lehtera’s contract for 2 years isn’t quite the same as 4 years. And the timing of it is very different if people have aspirations contending or for signing Panarin or Karlsson.
 

Psuhockey

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Nov 17, 2010
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Well, Lehtera’s contract for 2 years isn’t quite the same as 4 years. And the timing of it is very different if people have aspirations for signing Panarin or Karlsson.
Yes but Quick might actually be useful the first 2 years of the deal.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
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Pennsylvania
The Ghost comparison is really good actually. When the play is infront of Ghost, hes very good defensively, breaks up many rushes and posts great Corsi numbers because hes effective in the neutral zone. He is very much a positive player and is a credit to the flyers, hence why he plays so much.

The trouble comes when he actually has to defend for the other 47% in his own end when the puck is down low or beneath the hash marks. He often gets bullied by larger wingers with a greater stick length, and loses more board battles than he wins. He's still a plus player, but if the puck is down low with the opposition set up, hes not my first choice.

But here is the absolute kicker!!! And oh boy is it a big one. Ghost is paid 4.5 million dollars a year to play a bigger part on the team than Hagg. Hagg is paid to be a 5th/6th defenseman. Hagg is literally paid to get on the ice and ensure that he doesnt negatively affect the team, to absorb some minutes so that we can roll out rested better defenseman who can push the play. He isnt there to create offense, thats not his game at all.

People don't confuse it with good defense, we just appreciate the role that he plays. You don't roll 6 offensive defenseman for a reason. His goals arent "luck" either. Love how you can use that to discredit a player. Hagg had proper offensive chops in Junior, its still there, he just needs way more time than he gets at the pro level.

Litterally getting worked up on one of the smallest parts of the team that isnt even a negative. You should probably just aim all that angst against someone like Weise or Simmonds, who really are negatives at this point in time.

Ohhhhh boy. :laugh:

Look at this garbage...

-Hagg is OK because he's cheap (nonsense. Manning was cheap too and he was garbage. Bad is bad, good is good. Price is irrelevant when talking about individual play.)

-Hagg's scoring wasn't luck (nonsense. He can't replicate any of it and was lucky to get carried by the top line for months)

-Hagg's junior scoring is still relevant despite the fact that he's been lacking offensive ability his entire time in the SHL, AHL, and NHL. (nonsense. His junior scoring was back in 2012-2013...)

-Hagg is one of the smallest parts of the team (nonsense. He's been used as a top 4, or even top pair defensemen, since day 1)

-Hagg isn't even a negative (nonsense. He's a huge negative)

Again, this is making my point for me. The fact that these are the attempted defenses of Hagg show how indefensible he really is.

The desperate attempts to downplay his failures are incredibly strange. I root for the Flyers to win... I like anyone who helps the team and dislike anyone who hurts the team, so I can't understand trying so hard to defend someone who hurts the team I'm a fan of.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
Hagg is +7 at 1.15M, i.e. 164k per positive point.

G is +4 at 8.275M, i.e. 2.068M per positive point.

According to my newly invented stat we should trade G for approx. (2.068/0.164) 12.5 Haggs.
Oh damn... this groundbreaking work!

I've changed my mind. Trade Giroux, extend Hagg, hire Hakstol!
 

Hiesenberg

Registered User
Jul 2, 2013
15,576
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The amount of vitriol that Morin gets simply because he's traveling with the team is honestly pathetic.

The guy has done nothing to warrant any hate, but people love being right

Exibit A:
 
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