Line Combos: 2018/19 Roster Discussion mk2 - Opening Night

Nanuuk

Registered User
Nov 16, 2013
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Calgary, Alberta
Ok guys fair enough. I was thinking along the lines that he is bringing a lot to this new and improved team even if he isn't scoring. More so than Bennett did at the same stage. More so than Lazar. More so than Mangiapane. Arguably all three of those players would have benefitted from time in the AHL. And there is no doubt in my mind that Dubs would shine in the AHL. But continuing up here with the faster pace of play, being able to watch and continuing to learn from the veterans is a recipe that would work in this case. His scoring will come. Taking pride in all the other aspects of his game in the bigs is huge.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
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2022 Cup to Calgary
It’s not that he’s not useful if he’s not scoring, it’s more that we want him scoring a lot in the pros. Getting a taste of the show and going down for a couple of months is exactly what Kyle Connor did and look at him now. If he’s not putting up the points he’s capable of, let him go down and get the feel of putting the puck in the net. Once he dominates there, get him back up and put him in a role he can succeed in.

Agreed.

I love Dube but if he isn't going to be playing a big role, we have to play the long game with him and that means him playing 20+ a night and growing with Phillips, Foo, Kylington, Parsons, etc. IMO right now it seems our top eight forwards are:

Gaudreau
Bennett
Tkachuk
Lindholm
Monahan
Backlund
Neal
Czarnik

And that is also the group that should be on either of the power play units.

There is then a dropoff to the next group (Dube, Ryan, Jankowski, Frolik, Mangiapane). I think that next group is ALL NHL talent - and all guys who can play PP if necessary. But there isn't ice time for everyone and if you can send someone down, you should. Injuries and slumps happen and you can re-evaluate then.

I don't think they'll demote Dubs for not scoring. He brings other elements to the Flames. Possession, speed that gives the D chills, great on ice vision, energy, enthusiasm. I think he's here to stay.

That honestly sounds like an Ottawa Senators circa 2015 rationalization for keeping Curtis Lazar in the NHL... they even had a great third line of Condra-Pageau-Lazar that was instrumental in them making the playoffs. Long term it probably hurt Lazar's development.

I think Dube is a line driver and his speed is an asset. Give him a few more games to see if he gets hot, but send him down if he doesn't. Let him break through as a pro, and then call him up in January or February after he's really just gotten comfortable as a pro. Jake Guentzal spent some time in the AHL the same year he went after the NHL Playoff Rookie Goal Scoring record.
 

BigRangy

Get well soon oliver
Mar 17, 2015
3,407
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I'm also hesitant to keep Dube around past the next couple games if he continues as he has. My only concern is that I don't think Ryan or Jankowski will bring the right look to that 3C spot, so unless Lindholm is a "victim" of some shuffling I think sending down Dube will really hurt the ability to roll 4 lines, at least in the short term. Mangiapane would be the obvious replacement but he doesn't play C.
 

Lunatik

Normal is an illusion.
Oct 12, 2012
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Padded Room
I'm also hesitant to keep Dube around past the next couple games if he continues as he has. My only concern is that I don't think Ryan or Jankowski will bring the right look to that 3C spot, so unless Lindholm is a "victim" of some shuffling I think sending down Dube will really hurt the ability to roll 4 lines, at least in the short term. Mangiapane would be the obvious replacement but he doesn't play C.
Peters is big on FOs, if Dube doesn't start winning them, he won't stay at C regardless. And you're lying to yourself if you think Ryan on the 3rd line hurts our ability to roll 4 lines
 

BobColesNasalCavity

Registered User
Oct 15, 2016
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The thing that makes me get all fuzzy is that if Bennett keeps doing what he’s doing, and Czarnik keeps doing what he’s doing, and Dube keeps going, we start to have real quality depth across the lineup that in the case of injuries we don’t lose a beat. Feels like a different team than past.

I almost want to shed a tear watching the Flames play a semi speed game.
 

Wish You Were Here

Registered User
Mar 14, 2015
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Calgary, Alberta
I'm also hesitant to keep Dube around past the next couple games if he continues as he has. My only concern is that I don't think Ryan or Jankowski will bring the right look to that 3C spot, so unless Lindholm is a "victim" of some shuffling I think sending down Dube will really hurt the ability to roll 4 lines, at least in the short term. Mangiapane would be the obvious replacement but he doesn't play C.

Mangiapane is listed as a LW/C.
 

SKRusty

Napalm
Jan 20, 2016
2,611
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I'm also hesitant to keep Dube around past the next couple games if he continues as he has. My only concern is that I don't think Ryan or Jankowski will bring the right look to that 3C spot, so unless Lindholm is a "victim" of some shuffling I think sending down Dube will really hurt the ability to roll 4 lines, at least in the short term. Mangiapane would be the obvious replacement but he doesn't play C.

Jankowski and Ryan are better centers at their current levels. Peters is hoping Dube's offensive flare catches so that he can justify playing Dube in the line-up. Dube is 27.27% in the face-off circle while Jankowski is 47.37% and Ryan is 52.17%. In a protected role Dube is -1 while Ryan and Janko are -2 despite Dube being put with top six wingers.

Most importantly with premiere zone starts and TOI Dube has the same number of points as Ryan. 58 TOI for Dube and 67 for Ryan... Consequently Jankowski has only played 25 minutes. It is quite conceivable that if Mark was given the same TOI and zone starts that he would be outperforming Dube and Ryan. In Peters defense until the last game Mark did not perform well but that said he has never had the opportunities Dube and Bennett have been afforded.

Realistically with either Ryan or Jankowski the 3rd line is stronger not playing Dube.

Dube has a brilliant future but it is just not today. Dube needs special teams time, first line responsibilities of matching up with the oppositions best, and most importantly the most minutes possible to transition his junior game to the professional ranks.

RkPlayerAgePosGPCFCACF%
CF% relFFFAFF%FF% reloiSH%oiSV%PDOoZS%dZS%TOI/60TOI(EV)TKGVE+/-SAtt.Thru%
1Travis Hamonic28D119676.011.014382.422.812.550.062.533.366.714:3513:06000.740.0
2Mikael Backlund29C51014668.717.0723865.513.811.1100.0111.143.256.818:0413:02211.93647.2
3Garnet Hathaway27RW16366.73.35362.51.80.0100.0100.080.020.08:178:08000.40
4Matthew Tkachuk21LW51005166.213.4723567.316.46.196.3102.452.447.617:5412:40012.52360.9
5Austin Czarnik26C5824365.611.4593463.410.07.5100.0107.558.841.213:5010:33311.31957.9
6Mark Giordano35D51075864.811.9734860.36.411.891.9103.742.957.125:2916:36151.54134.1
7T.J. Brodie28D51036262.48.0715058.73.813.292.3105.546.753.322:3417:57222.01258.3
8Mark Jankowski24C3181162.1-1.813861.90.30.071.471.450.050.08:356:48100.35100.0
9Dalton Prout28D1191261.33.415768.215.60.066.766.771.428.613:4511:02101.01100.0
10Anthony Peluso29RW29660.013.27370.023.30.0100.0100.050.050.04:504:50100.41100.0
11Sam Bennett22C5554057.90.6382857.61.615.490.5105.945.254.811:359:47011.31163.6
12Michael Frolik30RW4272156.30.5221362.99.00.090.090.033.366.79:177:23131.05100.0
13Juuso Valimaki20D5675355.8-2.2493955.7-0.92.787.189.878.621.414:1712:40110.61643.8
14Johnny Gaudreau25LW5786454.9-3.7544852.9-4.911.680.692.258.941.121:4815:55210.13455.9
15Sean Monahan24C5786554.5-4.3544952.4-5.711.681.192.760.040.020:4815:02030.02263.6
16Elias Lindholm24C5676152.3-7.2504851.0-7.615.677.893.453.746.320:4313:2040-0.31872.2
17Michael Stone28D5656151.6-8.2515150.0-9.28.892.5101.350.050.015:4213:2520-0.81428.6
18Noah Hanifin22D5848350.3-11.6676351.5-7.99.391.5100.841.158.920:3017:17760.31464.3
19James Neal31LW5575849.6-10.7424946.2-14.112.991.2104.148.851.216:1813:0700-0.11850.0
20Dillon Dube20C5414448.2-11.4323746.4-12.64.292.997.051.948.111:399:2111-0.31353.8
21Derek Ryan32C5414448.2-11.4333250.8-6.94.592.096.555.644.413:2210:11210.8966.7
22Rasmus Andersson22D3343847.2-8.5232547.9-6.36.390.596.774.125.912:5112:4300-0.5944.4
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I find the CORSI and Fenwick interesting. It pretty much says Andersson and Dube could use more time in the minors and that my suspicions regarding Ryan were accurate in that he is over-rated.
 
Last edited:

joescores

Registered User
Mar 21, 2011
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Dube should be developing in AHL. He needs to grow. The NHL is not the answer at this moment and time.
 

Lunatik

Normal is an illusion.
Oct 12, 2012
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@SKRusty your takeaway from 5 games of corsi is that Dube isn’t NHL ready? Come on now
Haha, I agree. Using corsi for anything is pretty pointless IMO, even more so if you use a tiny sample size.

Personally, I won't go as far as saying Dube isn't NHL ready. He can play, but he has potential for so much more than he is showing IMO. So, I would like to see him go to Stockton for the time being so he can work on his offensive game and start gaining some confidence in the faceoff circle. Sending him to Stockton to center Mangiapane & Robinson, for the next couple months would be the best thing for him.
 
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SKRusty

Napalm
Jan 20, 2016
2,611
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@SKRusty your takeaway from 5 games of corsi is that Dube isn’t NHL ready? Come on now
Haha, I agree. Using corsi for anything is pretty pointless IMO, even more so if you use a tiny sample size.

Personally, I won't go as far as saying Dube isn't NHL ready. He can play, but he has potential for so much more than he is showing IMO. So, I would like to see him go to Stockton for the time being so he can work on his offensive game and start gaining some confidence in the faceoff circle. Sending him to Stockton to center Mangiapane & Robinson, for the next couple months would be the best thing for him.

Actually even despite the small sample size it is close to historically correct when you adjust for the increase in skill depth. Backlund, Chucky & Czarnik (Leading the way) and Johnny, Mony, and Lindholm (In the middle of the pack as they play against top lines) according to historical and current are sitting where you would expect on the teams positioning.

Considering how spoon fed Dube's line has been their CORSI and Fenwick should be better than Janko and Bennetts. Neal does not drive play as he is a finisher so seeing his numbers mirror Dube's is quite realistic.

IMO Dube needs to play in the AHL and dominate for 20 games ... if that takes 40 games to get him to that 20 game domination then it is what it is. Dube is a significant downgrade in every area except his speed at this point for the Flames. Unlike Johnny, Mony, and Chucky Dube is not driving the play. He isn't noticeable most nights despite playing with hand picked line mates.

Johnny started with Jooris and made him look like a rock star. Monahan was playing with Baertschi and Jones on the third line and put up numbers. IMO that is the difference between them being ready and not being ready. Period.
 

MDCSL

Registered User
Jun 9, 2016
994
576
Edmonton, AB
I have no problem with Dube getting some top line AHL time, but to point to corsi as the reason why is ridiculous he is more than holding his own against NHL players at this time
 

super6646

Registered User
Apr 16, 2018
17,765
15,509
Calgary
I'd agree that he doesn't look fully ready. He's really close, but I'm having a feeling that he will be sent down soon if he doesn't start producing. He has plenty of time, and I really believe he is our future #2 center.
 

Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
20,844
17,200
This team can finally score. It just hasn't been working out for us defensively, but at least Peters sees that and makes the necessary changes

What I'm thinking:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau can fly the zone if he wants; he puts up points. Lindholm has been better than Monahan this season and is more defensively responsible. Dube is a hell of a forechecker and is bound to score with Gaudreau on that line.

Tkachuk-Czarnik-Bennett
Tkachuk and Bennett are good defensively and Czarnik is a hell of a puck-hound. Two-thirds of this line is snakebitten but they're doing the right things and playing well. More importantly, they enable us to play fast, which was the intention all summer

Ryan-Monahan-Neal
Monahan as a third-liner is a meme around these parts but he hasn't been good defensively to start the season and could benefit from some time away from Gaudreau. In all honesty, their separation would be temporary but I'm thinking you insulate this line with a lot of O-zone minutes and tell them that their main goal is to score.

Frolik-Backlund-Hathaway
All three of these guys are probably our best defensive forwards. Backlund's wrist looks like it's severly hindering his play right now and Frolik is not a top6er anymore. Hence, the fourth line but not "fourth line minutes" per se
 

Nanuuk

Registered User
Nov 16, 2013
2,574
1,218
Calgary, Alberta
I would go along these lines.

Gaudreau/Monahan/Czarnik
Two 5'9" play making wingers with get up and go with high hockey IQ and a shooter. Czarnik is pretty good defensively as well and also can take weak side face-offs for Monny.

Bennett/Lindholm/Neal
Two wingers that can play 'heavy' with a play making, defensively responsible centre.

Tkachuk/Backlund/Dube
Two responsible and smart wingers with skill and get up and go with a defensive centre that can score.

Frolik/Jankowski/Ryan
Not sure if this would be an energy line, but all three can play on the PK and all three can move up and down the line-up during the game as needed.
 

Flameshomer

Likeaholic
Aug 26, 2010
3,830
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Edmonton
Why mess with a top line that has been relatively dominant? Lindholm looks great on the top line RW and all of the players are at or above PPG so why are we in a rush to end that?

Tkachuk-Backlund is also a known commodity. I would personally like to see Dube given a shot on the wing here, but Neal and Bennett have strong cases as well. I prefer Bennett.

Third line is where things start getting suspect. We have these pieces that seem like good depth pieces, but they aren't really producing in depth situations right now. Ryan, Jankowski, Frolik (he is producing, but only when with Backs and Chucky), 2 of bennett, Neal and Dube, Czarnik. These are all good depth pieces, we just need to find a way to configure them and get them going. My preference is something like this:

1st line
Tkachuk-Backlund-Dube
Bennett-Jankowski-Neal (I think we need to give this one a bit more time to click, they have looked pretty good) alternately Bennett-Czarnik-Neal
Frolik-Ryan-Czarnik

Having Hamonic back in the D corps has helped a lot. I think we were underselling him last year- if he continues to play like this that trade we made to acquire him actually looks pretty good.
 

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