Transfer: 2016 Summer Transfer Window

[Power Man]

Cgf

Re: mourinho

It wasn't about Pep tbh

 

[les Habs]

I don't look at Bayern like that. I think they are right up there with the best clubs in the world, and should expect to be the best, not be happy going out to the eventual champion.

You are right that they've done what's expected of them in the league and the cups, but unless any team in the Bundesliga elevates to their level, that should be a requirement each season. I think expectations for the CL should be ambitious but not crazy. I'm not saying they should be winning it every year, but winning once in Pep's three years is a reasonable expectation.

The season isn't over, but we are talking about perceptions if they didn't win it this season.

I too consider Bayern to be among the best clubs in the World who should not be happy going out to the eventual champion. I never said otherwise. What I did say however is that people need to be realistic about their chances while also better informed as to what Bayern were up against along with their relative strength.

Well there's a difference between ambitious and reasonable and while I find winning it once in Pep's three years in charge an ambitious goal I don't necessarily find it reasonable. That said I don't find it unreasonable considering the Bayern squad and Pep's proven track record. Still one should factor in such things as some of the injuries Bayern has had had to deal with during that time along with the competitors they've had for the CL crown.

Yes, perceptions that lack a serious dose of realism.

You know me, Mourinho isn't exactly my cup of tea and I don't respect him a whole lot, so I'm surprised you refer to him as if I'd pass him anything.

As for Pep, I was firmly against his choice to go to Bayern as well.

Lack of character to me. Going to FC Hollywood when they had a powerhouse was weak. And I can say I love every second of him getting asskicked out of the CL (though I can't say I loved Real beating them).
Him going to City is also weak to me. Money, money, money. As if he didn't have enough.
United, because of recent success and support and Arsenal because of the town would have made more sense.
As I said, Tottenham or a team with less media appeal would have been so much respectable. Building a winner from a decent team.
Here, he once again takes the best roster in the league. And the richest. Just like in every league.

I only mention Mourinho because there's never, or at least very rarely, this sort of discussion about Mourinho despite him consistently doing what you're maligning Pep for. That's all.

As for the lack of character argument, then in my opinion you could make that claim about just about any manager who takes a top flight club as opposed to more of a challenge with a lesser club. Hell, you don't even have to reserve such an opinion for managers at top flight clubs so long as whatever club a manager is at is in a preferable position to another club. I get what you're saying though. I just think you're making too much of it with the whole "lack of character" line. I personally would have loved to have seen Pep take over Roma.

United or Arsenal would have also been about money, money, money. United surely as much so and Arsenal not so far as off as to give him a pass. Not sure what you mean about United's recent history nor am I sure why the town matters at all. In fact in the latter case I don't see how a "lack of character" applies on top of it missing the point about Pep managing in the Premiership entirely. While he's a cultured guy, especially in the football World, he's clearly been hankering to manage in the Premiership.

And while he may be taking the best roster in the league, he's also taking a side that the vast majority of which has only won one league title with if that. On top of that he's taking over a side that has underachieved in the CL for years now and which at present sits in the CL qualifying spot on goal differential. So while I think he could take the league with the roster as it stands now, he also has some work to do.

At least Madrid had an identity with Mourinho

And he had the balls to drop players who were not playing well

Yeah, the identity of bus drivers who liked to kick people.

He also had the balls to create divisions.

Mourinho is a talented manager, but I can't see why certain supporters, Madridistas in particular, would want him at the helm.

Maybe

Maybe not

I can see this same sentiment as regards Perez in a few years.

I...is this meant to be a critique of Pep? Cause he's absolutely changed Bayern's identity and dropped under-performing players.

I don't think he posted that in relation to Pep at all. I think he was simply referring to Mourinho.

 

[les Habs]

I forgot to mention that City should probably be going for Stones (along with every other top English side) as opposed to/in addition to Laporte as Stones is English and in the long run would help City make the requirement.

 

[YNWA14]

I've been in the argument about Jupp's version of Bayern being remarkably glorified too often. It was a good team, with exceptional will power. Not that great tactically, or technically, but the willpower behind that team was exceptional. What helped tactically was that Bayern wasn't yet seen as the actual powerhouse it is today. We actually got to counter! Those were the days. Today, even other European powerhouses park the bus. Can't blame them, but it paints a picture.

Who cares whether some people would like Pep to take more of a "challenge". Pep isn't so insecure that he feels he has to prove something to armchair coaches around the world. They can talk about greenkeepers winning titles with those clubs as long as they want, and he'll continue to improve clubs that are giants to begin with and win many titles along the way. He doesn't need any superficial doubter's approval.

I don't think anyone is saying he needs approval, or that he's a bad coach. Only that he's only ever coached elite teams (and very well at that). Not just elite teams but probably top of the world teams. I think people would just be interested in seeing him actually coach a team that wasn't already ready to take on the world just to see if he could bring it to the top. A team like Spurs or Arsenal or even another German squad like Wolfsburg or any of the just below top teams that also had resources enough for him to implement his vision, but isn't already a world beater.

It would just be interesting to watch and see if he could do it. It's not like it's overly easy to get top teams to play as consistently as he has. However, it's a lot easier to win silverware with the best team in the world than it is to build a team and bring it from mid/top half table to being a title winner/trophy winner.

Though it should be said that City is going to be the biggest managerial challenge of his career so far, even if it's only a slight step down from Barcelona and Bayern. They're not the clear-cut best team in the PL at the moment (even on paper, it's not a wide gap like Barcelona with Messi and this Bayern to everyone else), and they've not really had any European success -- so we definitely will get to see some growth from Pep either way.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Even the best teams in the world can't expect anything more than making it to the CL SF any given year...especially not when they're hit hard by injuries and enter the SF outgunned because of it. Yeah they should win a CL during his time there for it to be a smashing success, but expecting that the year he took over wasn't reasonable, especially after the core of that team had just won absolutely everything in sight over the previous 12 months and were satiated. Then look at the injuries they were battling last year and tell me that you really think Pep should've beaten Barca.

I get the notion that in three years he should win the CL with one of the 3 best clubs on the planet; but look at what's specifically happened in those CLs campaigns. You can't look at any of them and say his team should've gone any further than they did. If they get past Juve this year, despite their injuries in defense necessitating an Alaba-Kimmich CB pairing, that'll be a strong achievement in and of itself; but I already know the Pep doubters will paint it as just doing what he's supposed to. Even though Juve have had even less competition in Serie A, and can be even more dangerous than last year's finalists now that they have Dybala up top, Marchisio's no longer in Pirlo's shadow, Cuadrado & Sandro give them dangerous width, and Rugani's joined that much venerated CB rotation.

As for what they've done in the BuLi; it's easy to say that winning the saladbowl should be the requirement each season...but them dominating the way they have can not be expected as it's simply unprecedented. He's dominated more than Bayern managed to when most of the golden-era West German NT was in their lineup and they had one of the 3 greatest players of all time driving them from the back. Nevermind that even just winning the league was still something Pep's predecessors failed to do in 2 of the 3 seasons prior to his arrival. Winning the BuLi just isn't that easy, even with more money than BVB/S04/HSV/the-plastics. Jupp couldn't do it until that treble-season; and Jupp was a very strong manager in his own right; despite the BuLi having had much less depth in the european places then than it does now.

I understand injuries, and that can explain these results in each season on their own, but if it happens every season, you gotta start pointing some fingers. Its more than just bad luck at this point. Either he doesn't have the right players for his system, he doesn't have enough depth, or he has problems with his medical staff, if these injury problems keep persisting. He's not the only coach though, Arsenal has the same types of problems and not enough people criticize them for this.

On how dominant they've been in the Bundesliga, is that down to how good they've been or how bad the other teams have been? Real Madrid and Barcelona are similarly dominant and thats due to the big gulf in talent between them and the rest of the teams in La Liga. You could say its pretty similar in the Bundesliga. Dortmund is Atletico who can occasionally challenge, and the rest just don't have anywhere close to the resources to compete with Bayern. Maybe Red Bull will be able to compete eventually, and be the Man City of the Bundesliga once they join the league next season.

 

[cgf]

That's a fair point about the blame for injuries, I dunno where the finger should be pointed. Not something I know too much about.

You're really under-estimating the quality of the teams below Bayern/Barca/Real. And the BuLi teams below Bayern are stronger than they were when Jupp was the manager.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I understand injuries, and that can explain these results in each season on their own, but if it happens every season, you gotta start pointing some fingers. Its more than just bad luck at this point. Either he doesn't have the right players for his system, he doesn't have enough depth, or he has problems with his medical staff, if these injury problems keep persisting. He's not the only coach though, Arsenal has the same types of problems and not enough people criticize them for this.

Injuries are in large part a product of his training regime, and Wenger's. He doesn't properly cycle players through off periods after high stress periods. He doesn't really have a system; he has a few core principles that he can adapt from team to team, and use in different formations or different kinds of players. He also adapts to having to use depth players better than any other manager; it's just not enough against Barca.

On how dominant they've been in the Bundesliga, is that down to how good they've been or how bad the other teams have been? Real Madrid and Barcelona are similarly dominant and thats due to the big gulf in talent between them and the rest of the teams in La Liga. You could say its pretty similar in the Bundesliga. Dortmund is Atletico who can occasionally challenge, and the rest just don't have anywhere close to the resources to compete with Bayern. Maybe Red Bull will be able to compete eventually, and be the Man City of the Bundesliga once they join the league next season.

You already know what we'll say to this question, because we've said it many times. You can twist the narrative either way you want (and you definitely want to twist it against Pep), but his team is extremely impressive if you watch them week-to-week. Comparing Bundesliga teams to teams in other leagues is not helpful; it's a very imprecise comparison.

Fans tend to overvalue managers who can elevate middling teams to CL place teams, and undervalue managers who can take a strong team and continue or extend their dominance. cgf does that too.

 

[cgf]

You say that as though Tuchel, Favre and Streich aren't amazing coaches tactically; regardless of the budgets they've had to work with. Tuchel may be the only one who's shown he can handle the egos at a big club, but that doesn't negate what the others have done.

 

[Deficient Mode]

You say that as though Tuchel, Favre and Streich aren't amazing coaches tactically; regardless of the budgets they've had to work with. Tuchel may be the only one who's shown he can handle the egos at a big club, but that doesn't negate what the others have done.

Why do you assume bigger clubs have bigger egos? Lots of pro footballers are full of themselves regardless of how good they actually are.

They're good coaches but none of them are on Pep's level. But since they took over teams with a lot of room for improvement, it's easier to say they had a bigger impact when the club improves than for someone who takes over a team with the best talent. That's the problem with the Pep criticism.

 

[cgf]

My opinion's aren't based as much on the success they've had relative to their budgets; as it is on the work they've done to achieve it. They've all shown excellent tactical understanding, teaching ability, and flexibility. All three are at or around Pep's level in these things.

And I say that a bigger club like FC Hollywood has bigger egos because it's true. There's plenty of egos lower on the totem pole but there's more and they're bigger in Bavaria.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

So, Bartra unsurprisingly wants leave in the summer, can't say I blame him. He also said he wants to go to a team with CL football.

Should also clarify barca want 12 million and a buy back option. His clause is at 50 million.

 

[Jeffrey]

So, Bartra unsurprisingly wants leave in the summer, can't say I blame him. He also said he wants to go to a team with CL football.

Should also clarify barca want 12 million and a buy back option. His clause is at 50 million.

I could see Leicester being interested.

 

[Cucumber]

So, Bartra unsurprisingly wants leave in the summer, can't say I blame him. He also said he wants to go to a team with CL football.

Should also clarify barca want 12 million and a buy back option. His clause is at 50 million.

I guess being #4 on the depth chart isn't his goal.

Man utd should go after him. If he comes to epl City will get him most likely.


Juventus should be very interested as well. A Pogba for Barta + $$$ makes sense.

Munich is another team that should look for another cb.

 

[Savant]

I could see Leicester being interested.

Bartra is the opposite kind of CB that Leicester play with. Not sure I agree with you there.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

http://www.theguardian.com/football...rahino-summer-move-tottenham?CMP=share_btn_tw

Saido Berahino is set to complete his protracted move to Tottenham Hotspur, with West Bromwich Albion having agreed in principle that he can leave in the summer for the north London club.

 

[les Habs]

So, Bartra unsurprisingly wants leave in the summer, can't say I blame him. He also said he wants to go to a team with CL football.

Should also clarify barca want 12 million and a buy back option. His clause is at 50 million.

Can't say I blame him either. Hopefully they don't budge. I'd much rather we sell Vermaelen and keep Bartra. Of course Lucho still might not play him much, but if we also sold Adriano (who I don't mind, but who also doesn't play much) then that would mean more rotating for Mathieu and likely more chances for Bartra. Of course we can always get a buyback clause as they want. Not a fan of the price being leaked though. Now we'll probably get less than 5 million for him.

 

[MrFunnyWobbl]

I can't say I understand why any big players or young players with potential want to go play for a team where they will see 25 minutes of time every three games.

I'd leave too.

 

[Power Man]

Lavezzi already bored at Qinhuangdao so he went to Bangkok for a couple fo days

 

[BSHH]

(...)
As for Pep, I was firmly against his choice to go to Bayern as well.

Lack of character to me. Going to FC Hollywood when they had a powerhouse was weak.(...)

Guardiola choosing Munich does not display any lack of character at all. Succeeding the beloved Heynckes and adapting to a different country and language (which he picked up quite quickly) is a huge challenge in itself, taking over the team which won it all and still subjecting it to a certain change of culture without any confidant in upper management shows courage - nothing else. We may have questioned Guardiola's character if he went to some cleptocrate's club (like PSG, ManCity or Chelsea) in 2013, but he did not.

Stop. Pep is a big reason why Bayern are at that level. Nearly any other manager in the world would have struggled to win as consistently as Pep has for three years in the league, even with their talent advantage. It's a pitiful way to discredit him.

Actually, many other managers have won quite consistently with Munich. When Guardiola came, Munich poached Götze from their lone national rival and made it clear that they would sign Lewandowski for free next summer, which created considerable distraction in Dortmund. Guardiola has done a good job with Munich, but he is no "big reason" for their success in BL - money is. Each time Munich faced an even richer team, which were Real in 2014 and Barcelona in 2015, they lost surprisingly clear.

However, Guardiola deserves extra credit for keeping his team afloat with all his defensemen out for quite some time. Therefore the German championship would be a remarkable accomplishment this year, unlike before.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[Evilo]

Guardiola choosing Munich does not display any lack of character at all. Succeeding the beloved Heynckes and adapting to a different country and language (which he picked up quite quickly) is a huge challenge in itself, taking over the team which won it all and still subjecting it to a certain change of culture without any confidant in upper management shows courage - nothing else. We may have questioned Guardiola's character if he went to some cleptocrate's club (like PSG, ManCity or Chelsea) in 2013, but he did not.

You know as well as I do that it's wrong.
When Guardiola accepted to join Bayern, Bayern had failed to win the CL, even after two finals including against a weak Chelsea squad.
Guardiola was signed to take the next step and win the CL.
Things didn't quite turn out like that because Heynckes won it all even before Guardola stepped in (which gave him that beloved status you're talking about) and Guardiola couldn't bring that CL.

That'd be like City wining it all this year and in a few years we'd hear how Guardiola had courage to take over after beloved coach Pellegrini who had won it all.
That's not how it happened.

 

[Vipers31]

Guardiola was signed to take the next step and win the CL.

Those are actually two different things. Yes, Guardiola didn't bring another CL win in his two attempts so far, but we did take a next step as a club during his tenure.

 

[BSHH]

You know as well as I do that it's wrong.
When Guardiola accepted to join Bayern, Bayern had failed to win the CL, even after two finals including against a weak Chelsea squad.
Guardiola was signed to take the next step and win the CL.
Things didn't quite turn out like that because Heynckes won it all even before Guardola stepped in (which gave him that beloved status you're talking about) and Guardiola couldn't bring that CL.(...)

Why did you allege that I "know [...] that it's wrong"? I merely forgot that Guardiola committed himself to Munich quite early. Please accept my apology for ths blunder of mine.

Anyway, FC Bayern was far ahead in BL at that time and had only lost the CL final in a very unlucky fashion before. At that point of time, Munich indeed had not won it all yet, but expectations there were still over the top.

Heynckes was already beloved then, especially by Hoeneß - the most influential person at that time. His upcoming success made it more difficult for Guardiola to succeed him, but Guardiola's decison was courageous none the less. As you pointed out yourself, he was expected to win every possible trophy in Munich, thus he faced a huge challenge. That was my point and to me it still stands.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[Jeffrey]

Those are actually two different things. Yes, Guardiola didn't bring another CL win in his two attempts so far, but we did take a next step as a club during his tenure.

I don't know about the next steps...
I find them boring and more bound to collapse than the Bayern of Heynckes. The last Dortmund game is the best example. They had no bites other than Robben.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Actually, many other managers have won quite consistently with Munich. When Guardiola came, Munich poached Götze from their lone national rival and made it clear that they would sign Lewandowski for free next summer, which created considerable distraction in Dortmund. Guardiola has done a good job with Munich, but he is no "big reason" for their success in BL - money is. Each time Munich faced an even richer team, which were Real in 2014 and Barcelona in 2015, they lost surprisingly clear.

However, Guardiola deserves extra credit for keeping his team afloat with all his defensemen out for quite some time. Therefore the German championship would be a remarkable accomplishment this year, unlike before.

Gruß,
BSHH

I'm talking match-to-match consistency. No other Bayern manager has won nearly every match until they've secured the title the way that Guardiola has these past three years, and Heynckes did in 2012-13.

You can have far more money than everyone else, but it will mean nothing if you don't have competent people running the club. Madrid has won the CL once in 13 years. Bayern would have been a favorite to win the title after Heynckes left if they signed even a decent coach based on the talent that they had and the strong strategic foundation that van Gaal and Heynckes built there. Money will get you the far superior players, but it won't get you a win if the other coach brings a far better strategy and your coach can't adjust.

 

[Vipers31]

I find them boring and more bound to collapse than the Bayern of Heynckes. The last Dortmund game is the best example. They had no bites other than Robben.

That isn't a good example, at all, given that under Heynckes we've had so, so, so much more trouble with Dortmund. Even in that CL final we were luckier than Saturday, and that was probably by far the best we had played against them in years at that point. Klopp/BVB had Jupp in his pocket most times we met, and at times completely tore us apart. Sure, our squad wasn't as talented then as it became under Pep, but it was still shameful at times.

I'm not sure about the collapsing. In a way, sure, it's easier to not collapse when you play much deeper and try to counter yourself. You can't dictate that type of game, though. Teams don't play Bayern today like they used to under Heynckes or before, for the most part. The respect has risen, and there's a lot of parked buses that you don't get to break down when you keep your backline and a DM much deeper. I don't think I'd call last year's loss at Barca a result of a collapse. We did collapse against Real at the hand of 3 (?) set pieces, for sure, but I find it to be a bit of a narrative to turn that into a higher chance of collapsing.