2016 CIS Offseason/Recruiting Thread

AdamMcg83

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Oct 12, 2011
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Laurier has posted their 29 man roster, consisting of 18 forwards, only 8 defencemen and 3 goalies. Last year's team ended with 30 players, less 1 walk-on likely not returning and 6 graduating players. With the addition of 11 new players, the projected roster would have been at 34 players. 5 non-graduating players have thus departed (or are no longer carried on the roster).

These are:

D - Mackenzie Braid
F - Justin Rasmussen
F - Ryan Langan
F - Jordan Delaurier
G - Mark Williams

Braid and Rasmussen are former OHL players. Braid was likely to play in Laurier's top 4 this year.

The turnover has been a weird (and maybe disturbing) trend at Laurier. In the 7 seasons under Greg Puhalski (including 2016/17's listed roster), the Hawks have never had fewer than 10 first-year-eligible players in any season. The first-year/senior balance on this team is alarming in Puhalski's tenure, especially when compared to his predecessor, Kelly Nobes. To wit:

2010-2017 (Puhalski)
- avg. 11.4 first-year players per season
- avg. 3.7 4th/5th-year players per season
- 71-83-13 overall record

2006-2010 (Nobes)
- avg. 6.25 first-year players per season
- avg 6 4th/5th-year players per season
- 77-26-9 overall record

I have no idea why these numbers are the way they are, and it could be strictly circumstantial - there are a number of factors that could contribute to this kind of roster split. But over 7 years, one starts to wonder if the circumstance becomes a trend.
 

Hollywood3

Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
May 12, 2007
6,451
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The turnover has been a weird (and maybe disturbing) trend at Laurier. In the 7 seasons under Greg Puhalski (including 2016/17's listed roster), the Hawks have never had fewer than 10 first-year-eligible players in any season. The first-year/senior balance on this team is alarming in Puhalski's tenure, especially when compared to his predecessor, Kelly Nobes. To wit:

2010-2017 (Puhalski)
- avg. 11.4 first-year players per season
- avg. 3.7 4th/5th-year players per season
- 71-83-13 overall record

2006-2010 (Nobes)
- avg. 6.25 first-year players per season
- avg 6 4th/5th-year players per season
- 77-26-9 overall record

I have no idea why these numbers are the way they are, and it could be strictly circumstantial - there are a number of factors that could contribute to this kind of roster split. But over 7 years, one starts to wonder if the circumstance becomes a trend.

I know at Manitoba there are very few players who attend school in order to play hockey. So they get a degree and then leave. Not all degress are 4 years. And sometimes a player earns credits before they even start their hockey career.

Some teams chasing national titles get their players to spread a degree over 5 years.

And some players conclude that university is not their best route and stop after 1 or 2 years.
 

AdamMcg83

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Oct 12, 2011
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I know at Manitoba there are very few players who attend school in order to play hockey. So they get a degree and then leave. Not all degress are 4 years. And sometimes a player earns credits before they even start their hockey career.

Some teams chasing national titles get their players to spread a degree over 5 years.

And some players conclude that university is not their best route and stop after 1 or 2 years.

All of this is true, but it's true of every program around the country. Laurier's freshmen-per-season average is constantly higher than it's OUA peers. Here are the freshmen per season for the Hawks, and 7 other randomly-selected OUA West teams since 2011:

1. WLU - 11.4
2. WSR - 9
3. YOR - 8.25
4. GUE - 8.1
5. BRO - 8
6. UofT - 7.3
7. WAT - 7
8. WES - 6.7

These seven other teams have combined for just 7 double-digit recruiting classes since 2011, whereas Laurier has 7 double-digit recruiting classes itself in the same time frame.

That's a huge, consistent difference. I'm sure the factors you listed contributes to some of the turnover, but the numbers would suggest that the turnover is much higher at Laurier than at other schools in the same time period, or at Laurier during the time period immediately proceeding this one.
 

MiamiHockey

Registered User
Sep 12, 2012
2,087
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All of this is true, but it's true of every program around the country. Laurier's freshmen-per-season average is constantly higher than it's OUA peers. Here are the freshmen per season for the Hawks, and 7 other randomly-selected OUA West teams since 2011:

1. WLU - 11.4
2. WSR - 9
3. YOR - 8.25
4. GUE - 8.1
5. BRO - 8
6. UofT - 7.3
7. WAT - 7
8. WES - 6.7

These seven other teams have combined for just 7 double-digit recruiting classes since 2011, whereas Laurier has 7 double-digit recruiting classes itself in the same time frame.

That's a huge, consistent difference. I'm sure the factors you listed contributes to some of the turnover, but the numbers would suggest that the turnover is much higher at Laurier than at other schools in the same time period, or at Laurier during the time period immediately proceeding this one.

Three observations:

1) In all sports, schools with lower academic standards have more turnover, because they attract athletes who are less academically-inclined (and, therefore, less likely to remain eligible and/or interested in school). If you look at your list above, that points to that factor: Western, Waterloo, and the U of T have much higher academic standards than Laurier, Windsor, and York.

2) The quality of coaching has everything to do with what's happening at Laurier. Keep in mind that guys may quit the hockey team while remaining at university. Guys who've played 4-5 years of Junior are, when they get to the CIS, playing for the love of the game. If the coaching is sub-par, they'll be more inclined to quit. Nobes saw RMC through its best stretch in history, brought Laurier to the University Cup, and then guided McGill to a CIS Championship. He had 4th/5th year players because they wanted to play for him. The lack of 4th/5th year players is a serious indictment of the coaching.

3) "Spreading a degree" over 5 years is a non-factor in your analysis. There are enough graduate and undergraduate programs that a coach can find 3 courses each semester for a decent student-athlete - even one that has finished his degree. Many players get a second degree in Education or Kiniesiology for that reason, or enroll in a Masters program to get a 5th year under their belts. If a guy has been eligible for 3/4 years and doesn't play a 4th/5th, that's coaching, not grades or eligibility.
 

SenSaddest

Registered User
Jan 31, 2015
117
40
two things of note was one of last cuts on laurentian this year. Also they signed gunner rivers as third goalie
 

UNB Bruins Fan

Registered User
Mar 11, 2008
14,038
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Fredericton, NB
I read an article today about UPEI having more players in camp than they are allowed to carry. This means that they will either have to cut players or redshirt them.

None of Marcus Power, Darcy Ashley, or Brent Andrews played against UNB tonight.
 

leafhky88

Registered User
Mar 16, 2009
1,069
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Toronto
two things of note was one of last cuts on laurentian this year. Also they signed gunner rivers as third goalie

Who was?

EDIT: Just realized you were talking about yourself. Sorry to hear you will not be playing. What league did you play in prior to this year?
 
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leafhky88

Registered User
Mar 16, 2009
1,069
18
Toronto
The turnover has been a weird (and maybe disturbing) trend at Laurier. In the 7 seasons under Greg Puhalski (including 2016/17's listed roster), the Hawks have never had fewer than 10 first-year-eligible players in any season. The first-year/senior balance on this team is alarming in Puhalski's tenure, especially when compared to his predecessor, Kelly Nobes. To wit:

2010-2017 (Puhalski)
- avg. 11.4 first-year players per season
- avg. 3.7 4th/5th-year players per season
- 71-83-13 overall record

2006-2010 (Nobes)
- avg. 6.25 first-year players per season
- avg 6 4th/5th-year players per season
- 77-26-9 overall record

I have no idea why these numbers are the way they are, and it could be strictly circumstantial - there are a number of factors that could contribute to this kind of roster split. But over 7 years, one starts to wonder if the circumstance becomes a trend.

That is something I have noticed (and no surprise they have the highest average number of 1st year players), but have never actually run the numbers.

If I would argue one year, it would be that last year (10 first year eligible players), as 3 of them were walk-on players to fill out the roster (one suited up for 2 games to avoid playing with 5 defencemen), and 1 was a 4th string goaltender who did not dress (even as a backup) for any games. Each non-graduating player from 2014-2015 was back for 2015-2016 except one (and I believe it was academic related). That said, it still leaves 6 of the past 7.

Laurier has historically run with a high number on their roster after having played part of a season with an intramural goaltender when their 2 starters went down, and playing with 13 skaters a few years ago.

The number I always tend to look at is number of non-graduating players who do not return. In that sense, Laurier has seen some improvement since the beginning of Puhalski's tenure (last year only 1, this year 5). However, I bet those numbers (as they would be highly correlated with the number of first year players) would be virtually identical to the league wide averages you posted (and Laurier would again have the highest turnover).

Both you and Miami raise some interesting points. Nobes had some recruiting success at the end of his tenure on the blueline (Sinfield, Shepley, Gauthier, Magistrale, Van De Bospoort) with significant major junior experience, but never had the quality I was seeing from Western or Lakehead (especially up front) at the time. Despite this, his record speaks for itself, and in his second-last season (2008-2009) the team had 22 wins. Puhalski has definitely brought in his share of good players. Since I started following (2006-2007 which happened to be Nobes' first year), Laurier has had 5 players who posted 50 or more points in the CHL (Craig Voakes, Zach Lorentz, Derek Schoenmakers, Andrew Fritsch and Brandon Robinson). 3 of them are on Laurier's team this year. Retention has been the issue. I have always posted that player retention is as important as player recruitment. Nobes had a lot of guys (especially up front) from Jr. A or Jr. B who were not necessarily big names, and while some of these players may not have been impact players right away, players improve over time in this league (and as they get older). Losing players after only a year or two hurts, the team misses alot of untapped potential of having the breakout guys who really excel in their 3rd/4th years while also providing leadership. Last year Laurier made the playoffs for the first time in 3 years and were overwhelmed by Western despite playing them close only a few weeks before. Laurier had 3 players on the roster who had played an OUA playoff game before. I really think that hurt them.
 
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leafhky88

Registered User
Mar 16, 2009
1,069
18
Toronto
Three observations:

1) In all sports, schools with lower academic standards have more turnover, because they attract athletes who are less academically-inclined (and, therefore, less likely to remain eligible and/or interested in school). If you look at your list above, that points to that factor: Western, Waterloo, and the U of T have much higher academic standards than Laurier, Windsor, and York.

2) The quality of coaching has everything to do with what's happening at Laurier. Keep in mind that guys may quit the hockey team while remaining at university. Guys who've played 4-5 years of Junior are, when they get to the CIS, playing for the love of the game. If the coaching is sub-par, they'll be more inclined to quit. Nobes saw RMC through its best stretch in history, brought Laurier to the University Cup, and then guided McGill to a CIS Championship. He had 4th/5th year players because they wanted to play for him. The lack of 4th/5th year players is a serious indictment of the coaching.

3) "Spreading a degree" over 5 years is a non-factor in your analysis. There are enough graduate and undergraduate programs that a coach can find 3 courses each semester for a decent student-athlete - even one that has finished his degree. Many players get a second degree in Education or Kiniesiology for that reason, or enroll in a Masters program to get a 5th year under their belts. If a guy has been eligible for 3/4 years and doesn't play a 4th/5th, that's coaching, not grades or eligibility.

You make some good points. In regards to point 1, Laurier's premiere programs are its business program and kinesiology both of which have high entrance standards, while the majority of remaining programs are considerably lower than Waterloo/U of T etc. From my experience seeing rosters turn over as players come and go, a good player enrolled in business has been the best recruit for Laurier, as those players for the most part tend to play their 4 years. In comparison, the average graduating rate for general arts is likely a lot lower.

In regards to point 2, there have been a few players I know of who have stopped playing hockey but continued their university degrees. I do not know enough to really comment on his coaching compared to the rest of the OUA, but anything is possible.

As a fan, I have a bias to be optimistic. They currently have a good group up front with few 4th year players (as always). I am interested to see if the team can build off making the playoffs last year.
 
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SenSaddest

Registered User
Jan 31, 2015
117
40
Who was?

EDIT: Just realized you were talking about yourself. Sorry to hear you will not be playing. What league did you play in prior to this year?

D1 highschool and AAA , have received a few JR A offers and im gonna try and practice with one of the NOJHL teams out here (cant play since course load is too hectic) . but for the most part being 19 killed me , just have a big offseason and come back to training camp ready to work. I'm GTA based so I have alot of assets back home
 

MiamiHockey

Registered User
Sep 12, 2012
2,087
187
You make some good points. In regards to point 1, Laurier's premiere programs are its business program and kinesiology both of which have high entrance standards, while the majority of remaining programs are considerably lower than Waterloo/U of T etc. From my experience seeing rosters turn over as players come and go, a good player enrolled in business has been the best recruit for Laurier, as those players for the most part tend to play their 4 years. In comparison, the average graduating rate for general arts is likely a lot lower.

In regards to point 2, there have been a few players I know of who have stopped playing hockey but continued their university degrees. I do not know enough to really comment on his coaching compared to the rest of the OUA, but anything is possible.

As a fan, I have a bias to be optimistic. They currently have a good group up front with few 4th year players (as always). I am interested to see if the team can build off making the playoffs last year.

If you take a good look at the landscape of OUA hockey, there are several schools that should always be at the top of the league because they have some competitive advantages due to location / school culture / quality of student life / academic standards.

Western is at the top - great school, great culture. Western has high standards, but enough programs that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to get in. Western has no excuse to not win every year.

RMC is at the bottom. Tough tough school, military training, and ridiculously high standards (I've recruited players to RMC that got rejected by RMC but accepted into Engineering at Waterloo and Finance at McGill. Not joking.) RMC has so many obstacles to overcome that it was somewhat miraculous for Nobes to win 7-10 games there every year.

In that range, Laurier is near the top. In the OUA West, they're right near Western in terms of appeal, and they really should be competing for the division every season. Laurier is a very good school with reasonable entrance standards, it has great school spirit, is in a great town, has access to tons of great players from within an hour's drive, and has a good reputation for social life. In my opinion, anything less than top 3 in the OUA West for Laurier is underachieving.
 

leafhky88

Registered User
Mar 16, 2009
1,069
18
Toronto
If you take a good look at the landscape of OUA hockey, there are several schools that should always be at the top of the league because they have some competitive advantages due to location / school culture / quality of student life / academic standards.

Western is at the top - great school, great culture. Western has high standards, but enough programs that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to get in. Western has no excuse to not win every year.

RMC is at the bottom. Tough tough school, military training, and ridiculously high standards (I've recruited players to RMC that got rejected by RMC but accepted into Engineering at Waterloo and Finance at McGill. Not joking.) RMC has so many obstacles to overcome that it was somewhat miraculous for Nobes to win 7-10 games there every year.

In that range, Laurier is near the top. In the OUA West, they're right near Western in terms of appeal, and they really should be competing for the division every season. Laurier is a very good school with reasonable entrance standards, it has great school spirit, is in a great town, has access to tons of great players from within an hour's drive, and has a good reputation for social life. In my opinion, anything less than top 3 in the OUA West for Laurier is underachieving.

That is the way I see it as well. You have the base competitive advantages that each school inherently either has or does not have based on the criteria you mentioned. If I had to rank them, I would also have Laurier near the top, with Western the clear cut #1 in the OUA West.

Schools have then either over or under performed in regards to these measurements through coaching, strength of team, quality of facilities etc. A school "over-performing" in my mind would be Ryerson. Ryerson does not have a long history of a successful men's hockey program. But a combination of how professional it appears to run, along with a state of the art facility is leading its program to recruit many of the top hockey athletes in the OUA West, despite not being a "university town" like London or Waterloo.
 

leafhky88

Registered User
Mar 16, 2009
1,069
18
Toronto
Ryerson appears to have added another blue chip recruit in Matthew Mistele who is coming off back to back 37 and 33 goal seasons in the OHL.

This announcement came while Ryerson was at UBC, where they had a relatively successful trip, outshooting the Thunderbirds in both games and pickup up the win tonight after dropping the first game. The boxscore shows Brodie Barrick got the win - he is likely Ryerson's 3rd goalie, and did not see any game action last year.

Given UBC was coming off a sweep of Alberta, a pretty decent result for the Rams. Neither Mistele or Josh Sterk (their top 2 recruits) suited up against UBC.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

Registered User
Mar 11, 2008
14,038
1,614
Fredericton, NB
Just noticed that Victor Findlay is reporting Zach Franko has transferred from Acadia to Mount Royal...he will have to sit out this season. Pretty big loss for Acadia...he was certainly a thorn in the side of UNB for the last couple of years.
 

Ched

Fueled by Passion
Jun 21, 2010
149
0
St. Croix a future Bison

It appears that Franks's childhood linemate Michael St. Croix has committed to the University of Manitoba after three years in the AHL and ECHL. He is redshirting this year and will be playing in the Brown And Gold next year.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

Registered User
Mar 11, 2008
14,038
1,614
Fredericton, NB
Also, Cole Sanford to Alberta. He was rumoured to go there back in the summer. If Fram ends up there as well, that is about as good a recruiting class as you will see if you base it on CHL numbers.
 

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