Proposal: 2016-17 Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part XII

[Alf Silfversson]

Maybe I stretched that out a bit, but was he not our most promising forward in Bingo last season with Dzingel??

Puempel isn't good, he's a bust 1st round pick who has a role as a bottom 6 player, Paul is not good either.

Stretched it out a bit? You ignore a 1st rounder and 2 2nd rounders that were drafted just that year. You ignored the MVP of the Q. You ignored players on Bingo who were outplaying Lindberg and getting call ups. You ignored Puempel (who had scored 12 more goals in the same GP). Yeah, I guess it was just a BIT of a stretch.

Lindberg is probably not in the same ball park as Paul even. He has 14 points in 35 games this year. He's not very good.

 

[GWNR]

So what does VAN gain by adding Ryan's cap hit/salary for 5 more seasons and paying 6 million of Loui's salary in year 1?

I'll wait....

I also want to add OTT sent the Leafs their best prospect F at the time (Lindberg plus a 2nd) in order to have them take on the cap hits of Greening, Michalek, and Cowen while adding Phaneuf. So if you have a better proposal for what price VAN is willing to pay for all of Ryan's contract and Eriksson's year 1 bonus, would love to read it

In what world was Lindberg our top prospect? That is absurd.

The fact that you think this is our best trade offer shows that we're probably not very good trading partners.

Eriksson and Ryan have pretty much the same statistics this year. Their value is not far off one another. I get what your saying. Ryan's contract sucks. What sweetens the deal? Not trade a top prospect that's for damn sure.

Lazar and Ryan
for
Eriksson

That's as far as I would go. If Vancouver doesn't wnat that then that is fine. Trading Brown jsut to dump a contract is a) not good value and b) not smart.

Also - relax. People disagree with you, you can unpuff your chest and cut out the "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER' response. Typically on message boards when you post something a little "out there" you get this response. You could defend it rather than ask people to come up with a better idea (Which I think I did - walking is a better idea than that bogus trade)

 

[ekarlsson65]

Lindberg has never been Ottawa's best prospect at F... White for one was way ahead of him, you could argue between Chlapik, maybe Paul as well, heck, even Perron who was lighting it up. Lindberg was/is a b level prospect.


Anyways,

You're basically saying the difference between 6 mil + Eriksson for 5 years at 6 mil per cap hit and Ryan at 7.25 per is Brown and Lazar (for what it's worth, I suspect Ryan's bonus is actually payable at the start of the NHL FY in July not the anniversary of him signing, so it's in part a moot point anyways).

So lets say we value Ryan and Eriksson as players equally to keep it simple; we're then left with 6 mil, plus 1.25 x 5 = 12.25 dollars to balance. You're suggesting Brown + Lazar equals 12.25 mil (front loaded across 5 years). I'm not saying it's wrong, however, I'm not sure we could use that money (for example via free agency) to replace what those two players are reasonable expected to become.

I don't have any expectations for Lazar at this moment. He can't score, he can't seem to defend well either, his only signs of promise was a few years back playing with Pageau and Condra on the checking line. Brown has more upside no doubt, but I just did not feel Lazar alone would entice VAN to take on that amount of $

 

[ekarlsson65]

In what world was Lindberg our top prospect? That is absurd.

The fact that you think this is our best trade offer shows that we're probably not very good trading partners.

Eriksson and Ryan have pretty much the same statistics this year. Their value is not far off one another. I get what your saying. Ryan's contract sucks. What sweetens the deal? Not trade a top prospect that's for damn sure.

Lazar and Ryan
for
Eriksson

That's as far as I would go. If Vancouver doesn't wnat that then that is fine. Trading Brown jsut to dump a contract is a) not good value and b) not smart.

Also - relax. People disagree with you, you can unpuff your chest and cut out the "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER' response. Typically on message boards when you post something a little "out there" you get this response. You could defend it rather than ask people to come up with a better idea (Which I think I did - walking is a better idea than that bogus trade)

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, that's perfectly fine, but when you disagree and say "No, that doesn't work, moving on!" how is that putting any substance to the debate? What is YOUR solution to making it work then?

Not you personally, just in a general sense

 

[Micklebot]

I don't have any expectations for Lazar at this moment. He can't score, he can't seem to defend well either, his only signs of promise was a few years back playing with Pageau and Condra on the checking line. Brown has more upside no doubt, but I just did not feel Lazar alone would entice VAN to take on that amount of $

I'm willing to believe this season is the outlier for Lazar (missing training camp to Mono plus a concussion to start the season can mess you up), so while I agree his value is low, I'm sure teams probably still see a 20-25 pts bottom six player that can play a defensive role as a floor for him.

Brown on the other hand is a high end prospect who I'm sure many teams are quite high on. He's a bit of a boom or bust prospect and has missed a lot of time to injuries this year though, so there is probably a lot of debate on his value.

So here's the thing, a 20-25 pts 4th liner that won't hurt you defensively, is probably going to cost you at least 1 mil per year, and then there's whatever value you assign his potential upside. If Brown turns into a 2-3 mil dollar bottom 6 guy, we're looking at spending around 15+ mil over the 5 years to replace their impact on the ice, and that's probably a pretty pessimistic projection.

Basically, the cost savings over the term of the contracts isn't enough to justify giving up on those two imo, so you're left hoping that Eriksson bounces back and Ryan doesn't.

You're right that Lazar alone isn't enough, but adding Brown is big time overkill.

 

[Daffy]

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, that's perfectly fine, but when you disagree and say "No, that doesn't work, moving on!" how is that putting any substance to the debate? What is YOUR solution to making it work then?

Not you personally, just in a general sense

Maybe some people don't want to make that trade work.. it's a bad proposal. Ryan and Eriksson are close to even. Slightly more value to Eriksson because of contracts. But to add Brown? Come on. Sens need a top 3 forward. Eriksson doesn't move the needle for me.

 

[GWNR]

You're right that Lazar alone isn't enough, but adding Brown is big time overkill.

Agreed. The reality from Vancouver's perspective is they signed Eriksson thinking he'd solidify a really good scoring line with the Sedin's OR add a good scorer to their second line, as they've lacked scoring depth for a while.

That didn't happen. So his value definitely dips. he got paid well because he killed it in a contract year and showed signs of how good he was in Dallas. He is now dipping.

So while Lazar's value is low right now (And I know we all agree Ryans is) - Eriksson's is as well.

I dont think Eriksson would be that great here, the value would be getting a piece on par with Ryan while also getting rid of his contract.

Note - Benning is an idiot and Van fans almost always hate his deals.

 

[Tkachuk27]

Evander Kane for Cody Ceci & a 1st

Kane Turris Stone
Hoffman Brassard Ryan

Meth EK
Phaneuf Wideman

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Evander Kane for Cody Ceci & a 1st

Kane Turris Stone
Hoffman Brassard Ryan

Meth EK
Phaneuf Wideman

lmao dfkm.

ceci+ 1st we better be getting kane without the headaches and better 2 way game... so duchene

 

[chipsens]

How dare you inject facts into his chicken little routine?

Still part of the Mac fan club? When do you start to consider the impact of multiple concussions? Maybe Stone's not damaged goods yet...I hope not.

 

[Tkachuk27]

lmao dfkm.

ceci+ 1st we better be getting kane without the headaches and better 2 way game... so duchene

Headaches or not your getting a 25 year old physical 20 goal scorer with size and speed & let Guy make him a better 2 way player

Kane is the less expensive version of Duchene (trade wise) that actually plays a position of need

 

[lunadio]

i still think Hanzel will be a senator buy saturday

 

[IranCondraAffair]

I really don't get why people seem to think Ottawa needs to trade Ryan. Especially at the cost of the very same cheap assets that will someday offset his salary.

A couple of points about Ottawa's budget:

1. We're fine for this season. If anything we have extra room.

2. Next season we have 60.2 million committed. We will need to sign Dzingel, Pageau, Lazar, and (likely) Pyatt. This will probably costs us < 5 million. Leaving us approximately 3-5 million to fill out two bottom-6 roster spots. We might lose a big salary to expansion and MacArthur might still be LTIR and covered by insurance. Regardless, we are swimming with budget space.

3. 2018-19 is even better, only 43 million committed including MacArthur's salary. 3 top-4 defense-men would be signed and 5 top-6 players if our budget stays the same. If MacArthur is LTIR, that's fine, we'll have 4.5 million extra to find a replacement. If Methot, Ceci, Ryan, or Phaneuf is lost to expansion, that's even more room.

You guys are worse than chicken little. Ryan's contract is only a problem if it is preventing us from acquiring someone better. So let me ask you guys. Who is this amazing FA that is willing to play in Ottawa for cheaper than Ryan?

 

[MaxTheLimit]

2. Next season we have 60.2 million committed. We will need to sign Dzingel, Pageau, Lazar, and (likely) Pyatt. This will probably costs us < 5 million. Leaving us approximately 3-5 million to fill out two bottom-6 roster spots. We might lose a big salary to expansion and MacArthur might still be LTIR and covered by insurance. Regardless, we are swimming with budget space.

You make a valid point, but the Sens have $62.4M in actual salary for next year. The budget is usually around $66M. Let's say it goes up to $68M next year. Sens have $70.5M in salary spent this year, but some of that is covered by insurance on MacArthur, which leaves it at about the magic $66M. That means the Sens have about $5-$6M to get Pageau, Dzingel, Pyatt, Lazar, and a couple bottom six names on there. It is a bit tight. We will probably be wanting to resign Condon to another year as well.

Interestingly, the salaries for Anderson, Phaneuf, and Brassard are going down, while Ryan, Hoffman, Turris, Stone, Karlsson, Ceci, and Borowiecki go up.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

You make a valid point, but the Sens have $62.4M in actual salary for next year. The budget is usually around $66M. Let's say it goes up to $68M next year. Sens have $70.5M in salary spent this year, but some of that is covered by insurance on MacArthur, which leaves it at about the magic $66M. That means the Sens have about $5-$6M to get Pageau, Dzingel, Pyatt, Lazar, and a couple bottom six names on there. It is a bit tight. We will probably be wanting to resign Condon to another year as well.

Interestingly, the salaries for Anderson, Phaneuf, and Brassard are going down, while Ryan, Hoffman, Turris, Stone, Karlsson, Ceci, and Borowiecki go up.

I read somewhere the budget was 68m for this season, I could be wrong. If true, I think Eugene will probably make a few bucks if we both make the playoffs and MacArthur is (truly) 80% covered by insurance.

The MacArthur issue does throw a wrench into things any way you look at it for projections. Either you make assumptions based on him playing and Ottawa is swimming with forward depth or, if not, we're swimming in budget space.

Ottawa has done a fairly good job balancing their back-loading with some front loaded deals. Regardless, Ottawa's budget is almost certainly going to be 68-69 at a minimum next season barring a massive decline in revenues. Given that the we're a little bit higher on salary compared to cap next year, a few multi-year extensions can be back-loaded this season to shave a few 100K off the budget as well. Something to consider.

Based on 68-69 million, that's 5.6-6.6 for Condon, Pageau, Dzingel, Pyatt, Lazar, + two more. My gut tells me Pyatt will seek out term and prioritize remaining with the Sens. 900K -1m X 2 years. Condon will get 800K-1M. Won't be more than that. Dzingel is going to get a "show me" contract around 900K-1.0m like Hoffman got. I'll budget 700K-800K for Lazar. Assuming Pageau gets a bridge deal similar to Smith's old deal (1.877) that's around 5.4-5.7M for 11 forwards, 7 defense-men, and 3 goalies. We're a little close to the sweet spot, but MacArthur and the expansion draft throw a big monkey wrench into things. The last two spots are only going to cost 600K-800k each.

Regardless, we're in the right neighbor hood. Especially if MacArthur is done. Losing Methot, Phaneauf, or Ryan would really open things up. Unfortunately, they are all very valuable.

 

[Liver King]

i still think Hanzel will be a senator buy saturday

he would be my pick

Hanzal/Sharp/Burrows are my guesses.

 

[Super Cake]

The Sens are probably going to have to give up a 1st if they want Hanzel or Sharp.

We don't have our 2nd in 2017 or 2nd in 2018. I guess you can always give up a 2nd in 2019, but the Sens won't do that imo.

 

[Sensinitis]

Hanzal would give the team contending C depth.

I'm totally for giving our 1st if it comes down to it... I mean, we have 4 top 50 prospects and Dahlen... We'll survive.

Can't wait till the deadline!

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I have no problem giving a first. But for a pure rental. That's tough. For a guy that will be here a while. Count me in without hesitation.

 

[Super Cake]

I mean i am okay with giving up a 1st, but it has to be for a guy that will help us.

 

[Liver King]

The Sens are probably going to have to give up a 1st if they want Hanzel or Sharp.

We don't have our 2nd in 2017 or 2nd in 2018. I guess you can always give up a 2nd in 2019, but the Sens won't do that imo.

id do a 1st for Hanzal. He fits this team like a glove, would give us two elite shutdown centers on top of Turris and Brassard. Also brings a physical element, pk abilities, and can play LW as well.

id like Sharp, but I wouldnt move a 1st for the guy especially with the season he is having. He would be a by low guy for me, and with his cap hit I dont think many teams can take him on. So if you can get him for relatively cheap 3rd + b prospect or conditional pick im all for it

 

[Liver King]

the only benefit I see for going after a rental this season is they simply wont hurt our protected list.

you trade for Duchene/Landeskog/top 6 with term you lose Pageau/Dzingel plus the assets you already gave up

everyone keeps saying its a weak draft, although there is always good players in the first round - id be perfectly fine with moving our 1st because of guys like Brown White Dahlen Chalpik Chabot and Englund. I feel like we are okkay to miss a year of gaining a ton of prospects

 

[Super Cake]

the only benefit I see for going after a rental this season is they simply wont hurt our protected list.

you trade for Duchene/Landeskog/top 6 with term you lose Pageau/Dzingel plus the assets you already gave up

everyone keeps saying its a weak draft, although there is always good players in the first round - id be perfectly fine with moving our 1st because of guys like Brown White Dahlen Chalpik Chabot and Englund. I feel like we are okkay to miss a year of gaining a ton of prospects

I read an article about how this upcoming draft was downgraded from weak to terrible.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

The reputation of this draft is making me less sour that we're short a 2nd rounder.

Personally, I don't think we're in a position to be trading for rentals in general.

I have no problem bargain shopping for guys like Wingels or tossing the occasional 3rd or 4th rounder, but the team is simply not playing well enough to justify that level of risk.

That said, given the state of the draft (and where we'll likely be picking) I don't mind sending away the 1st if it can be used for a long-term upgrade

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

we need giroux/tavares

not hanzal

We have White coming in if we want size and 2 way play down the middle.

if the guy wasnt always injured then id 100% move a pick for him. He isn't in our longterm plans.

Get a Burrows or Chimera and call it a success.