Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part IV | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[Gurglesons]

No. MAF easily brings back a first rounder +. Easily.

Doubt it. Maybe from Dallas, but not Calgary.

 

[rintinw]

Like IcedCapp, I am wondering whether you got my meaning or not.
I am not saying that we should not add talent. I am saying we should add, but not players who are much more expensive yet little different from the exciting young players who have contributed much to us being in the finals. Adding someone like for instance Frolik at 4.3 million only insures that we will have no cap-space to get a REAL good player.

I have no problem with Hansen, but people forget that he is one of the pieces Vancouver can insert in a deal to get a BETTER player, because his cap-hit and quality makes him desirable. In any case neither he nor Frolik are ever going to be real top6 players. They are what they are.

Ah... OK.
It is optimistic to see Malkin make Rust and Sprong genuine top6 forwards too in the short term. Sure. But I am not religious about not breaking up lines. The greater point is that we have several young players who can develop into options rather fast, but just like with our D a few years back, if we keep on signing established players for those positions and don't make space, then they will not get those chances and the established player will consume whatever cap-space we had to make any significant additions.

If we did NOT have any chances at seriously adding and didn't have many good youngsters - then of course I would be on board with trying to get the second best options who fit with our style of play.

And remember - our lines don't need to rock in the first half of the season. Also, we don't have to have made every move in the Summer. Surely several of the key ingredients to this years finals team were found during the season. Rather let the kids give us an idea what we have before we do anything rash.

I think we are mostly on same page with what you said regarding trades and free agency:
- ideal targets are great ES players with as little PP production as possible to inflate their cap hit
- they do not need players that are minor increase at ES but come with inflated cap hit because they already have that and much much cheaper (and Frolik definitely fulfills those criteria, i.e. too small of increase and too big of cap hit)
- they should wait and see what they have internally before trying to fill those holes by FA or trades (which means I'm all for experimenting with line during the first half of season)
- they do not need to make a splash at FA or trade deadline and you can address your needs during the season (and bonus point is there probably won't be premium price tag due to everyone pitching against each other)

My gripe was directed more to an internal strategy than anything else (i.e. going three scoring lines vs. two scoring lines). What you said is pretty much in line with my opinion when you try to build the team based on 2 lines though.

But to have 3 lines in a cap world? It's possible only when those young players break out as a legit scoring line player so you can exploit that performance / cap hit mismatch.
I think 3 scoring lines strategy is in fact a chimera. Yes, you go for it if opportunity arise but you cannot base your plan on that.

 

[mpp9]

Chicago's depth when Frolik won a cup with them in 2013 was also based on them allowing Shaw, Bickell, Saad and Kryger to have roles - and Saad had then become a top6 forward in his own right when they won again last year. They had four stars and natural top6 forwards back then in Kane, Toews, Hossa and Sharp. I don't think we are inferior, we just have ours spread on three lines instead of two.

So you want 4 high end players. That's fine. I'm just not sure that's possible with what we have to work with. Maybe I change my mind if SJ wins this series thoroughly with their 4 high end players in Pavelski, Thornton, Marleau and Couture.

I"m talking about more realistic options.

Not everyone has to be the same kind of player. Eriksson has had one season since 2008 where he has missed significant games - after Orpik got him. And in that instant only 21. He didn't miss a single game this season, scored 30 goals and had 63 points. Seems to me you have no idea which player he is, really

If he doesn't fit our team speed scheme, then he better fit some kind of niche we're missing. He won't play on our top PP unit, where he gets alot of his production, because he's a lefty and plays net front. He'd need to be pretty damn productive at ES to justify nearly 6 mil over the rest of 87/71's good years.

Eriksson had 42 ES points last year in 82 games. I think you could find a guy to give you nearly that type of ES production for cheaper.

 

[Shady Machine]

After thinking about it, bringing in JT Miller (for Pouliot+) and Hansen (for Fehr+) during the off season would be an amazing offseason. We'd have:

Miller-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hansen-Malkin-Sprong
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Kuhnhackl-Cullen-Rust

That's awesome and Miller and Hansen together wouldn't even hit $6 million AAV.

Rangers aren't trading us JT Miller

 

[Shady Machine]

Stamkos? Stamkos? You're talking Stamkos? Stamkos?

No we're talking about Yakupov.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rangers aren't trading us JT Miller

If it's trading him to us for Pouliot or losing him to an offer sheet, I think they'd definitely prefer the first.

 

[Shady Machine]

If it's trading him to us for Pouliot or losing him to an offer sheet, I think they'd definitely prefer the first.

You seem obsessed with offer sheets. Who is the last player that was offer sheeted?

 

[mpp9]

If it's trading him to us for Pouliot or losing him to an offer sheet, I think they'd definitely prefer the first.

We can only offer a 2nd. That's up to 3.6 mil. I'm not sure that they wouldn't be able to match that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You seem obsessed with offer sheets. Who is the last player that was offer sheeted?

Are you forgetting what happened with Saad and Hamilton last summer?

We can only offer a 2nd. That's up to 3.6 mil. I'm not sure that they wouldn't be able to match that.

They also have Hayes and Kreider as RFAs, that's why it's an issue. They are going to be very tight against the cap if they keep all 3 of them.

 

[Shady Machine]

Are you forgetting what happened with Saad and Hamilton last summer?



They also have Hayes and Kreider as RFAs, that's why it's an issue. They are going to be very tight against the cap if they keep all 3 of them.

I must be so please enlighten me. Were there offer sheets for them?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I must be so please enlighten me. Were there offer sheets for them?

No, they were traded right before free agency because they would have gotten an offer sheet had they not traded them. Maybe JT Miller doesn't get a high enough AAV where they have to trade them, but the Rangers will almost definitely have some serious cap issues.

 

[IcedCapp]

If I were GM, I'd move Bonino this summer for a ransom and put Hagelin and Kessel in the top-6.

I'm led to believe the team will likely try to build 3 very good lines with HBK, based on this post season, banking on the hope that you'll never be able to stop them all.

If you look at the Penguins salary structure, it's certainly possible, but it relies on being able to move certain contracts without bringing money back, and, more importantly, all of the kids not only not regressing, but progressing next year.

You should feel good about Crosby - Hornqvist, but finding them a LW will be tricky. I don't think Sheary is the long term answer.

Geno can probably work with Sprong or Rust, though both seems unlikely, and asking Sprong to play those minutes seems... Questionable.

You have more than enough players to create a good, cheap 4th line.

So the issue becomes the top-2 LWs .

moving Kunitz and Fehr and fleury creates 10MM in space. That should be enough to round out the top-6, D, and find a backup

The team will probably keep Kunitz and Fleury, so whatever.

 

[Shady Machine]

No, they were traded right before free agency because they would have gotten an offer sheet had they not traded them.

Do you know for a fact that's why they were traded?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Do you know for a fact that's why they were traded?

Yes, that was widely established as the reason why they were traded. I thought this was common knowledge. Saad was moved because the Hawks simply couldn't match an offer sheet that he would get and Hamilton was moved because the Bruins just didn't want to pay him what his offer sheet would be.

http://spectorshockey.net/fear-of-the-offer-sheet/

I was wrong about the Bruins, they couldn't afford Hamilton either. I thought they just didn't want to pay him that much.

 

[cassius]

At this point - you trade Fleury for anything you can get.

Makes 0 sense to hold onto a $6M second string goaltender who is a disaster in the playoffs. Especially when your $9M franchise center is playing alongside Kunitz and an AHL call-up.

I would trade him for a 2nd rounder easily.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Something interesting I just saw too, from last summer:



The rumor was that the Pens wanted their 2016 2nd back so they could offer sheet someone. If that is true, it seems like JR would be willing to pursue that path again. It didn't happen last summer obviously, but I'm curious to see if JR would try that this summer. The Pens have all of their 2017 picks right now.

 

[Shady Machine]

That reads like an opinion. Also it came down to teams that weren't willing to meet the players demands. In Bostons case, they certainly could have paid Hamilton what he asked for. They signed Belesky in free agency and moved Hamilton. Just weird priorities there.

I can understand the Saad one though but they were up against a cap crunch I don't see the Rangers being up against. Plus both teams moved their player out of conference. That seems more likely to me.

 

[Shady Machine]

Something interesting I just saw too, from last summer:



The rumor was that the Pens wanted their 2016 2nd back so they could offer sheet someone. If that is true, it seems like JR would be willing to pursue that path again. It didn't happen last summer obviously, but I'm curious to see if JR would try that this summer. The Pens have all of their 2017 picks right now.

Interesting stuff. Maybe the GM landscape on offer sheets has changed.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Offer sheets may cause NYR to move a player, but if they have to move one of Miller, Hayes, or Kreider, you'd have to think it'd be Hayes.

Trading a good young wing to a division rival that boasts a couple superstar centers sounds like a textbook ****-where-you-eat move.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That reads like an opinion. Also it came down to teams that weren't willing to meet the players demands. In Bostons case, they certainly could have paid Hamilton what he asked for. They signed Belesky in free agency and moved Hamilton. Just weird priorities there.

I can understand the Saad one though but they were up against a cap crunch I don't see the Rangers being up against. Plus both teams moved their player out of conference. That seems more likely to me.

Yeah, moving the players out of the division does seem more likely than trading them in the division. I just think that getting Miller isn't as unrealistic as some other people think, whether it be by an offersheet (the Pens having 2 2nds this year may make them more willing to offer sheet at the price of a 2nd this summer) or by dangling Pouliot for him (which I still think helps both teams a lot).

If the Ducks were to offer Theodore for Miller (closest comparable off the top of my head to Pouliot), they'd obviously trade him out of the division to Anaheim. I just don't know how many players like Pouliot could be dangled. Hell, I don't even know if Pouliot himself would be dangled.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, moving the players out of the division does seem more likely than trading them in the division. I just think that getting Miller isn't as unrealistic as some other people think, whether it be by an offersheet (the Pens having 2 2nds this year may make them more willing to offer sheet at the price of a 2nd this summer) or by dangling Pouliot for him (which I still think helps both teams a lot).

If the Ducks were to offer Theodore for Miller (closest comparable off the top of my head to Pouliot), they'd obviously trade him out of the division to Anaheim. I just don't know how many players like Pouliot could be dangled. Hell, I don't even know if Pouliot himself would be dangled.

At the very least, JR could give NYR a dingle about the dangle.