2016-17 English League Cup and FA Cup

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
34,951
12,225
North Tonawanda, NY
Just saw the highlights. The first goal is clearly offside. Courtois reaction to Alexis' run is obviously affected by Ramsay being offside and moving like he's going to play the ball.

Sounds like Arsenal was the better team based on run of play though.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,227
23,098
New York
I have no respect for Wenger.

Arrogant *****. Overrated. Tarnishing his own legacy.

The nerve this guy has to lash out at people that think he's a **** manager. His recent record speaks for itself.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
3,410
38° N 77° W
Just saw the highlights. The first goal is clearly offside. Courtois reaction to Alexis' run is obviously affected by Ramsay being offside and moving like he's going to play the ball.

Sounds like Arsenal was the better team based on run of play though.

Yeah but I have a hunch that if not for that offside goal, Chelsea may well have won. They had a bad game but the course of the rest of the game was of course heavily affected by the offside goal.
 

Edo

The Mightiest Club
Jun 7, 2003
6,036
69
vancouver
wowhockey.com
Please. For the love of god. Do not bring Mertesacker back. He had the best game of his career, let that be the lasting image of his legacy here.

I think we saw today how much the squad respects Wenger. Hard to really critique the performance. They could've just as easily turtled knowing how they were missing Mustafi/Kosc and going against huge favourites in Chelsea.

We're at a point in England where you need to prioritize a competition as attempting to compete in everything will leave you in trouble.

Chelsea sucked. It's pretty sad when Pedro is your best player. They're a group of individuals that have suspect characters and they went into this thinking it would be a cake walk. They got hammered. Felt great.
 

les Habs

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,236
3,964
Wisconsin
There's a difference between wanting to win it, and it being a big priority though. It's a nice thing to have, but it's not the league title or the Champions League. I'm not happy Chelsea came out flat, played sloppy for most of the game, and lost to an Arsenal side missing half their defense, but I'm also not going to let it put a damper on an otherwise very good season.

Wow. Well to each their own, but that for me would be quite the damper on the season.

It's pretty sad when Pedro is your best player.

:laugh:
 

Edo

The Mightiest Club
Jun 7, 2003
6,036
69
vancouver
wowhockey.com
FWIW, it's the best I've seen Pedro play. I clearly don't bother watching Chelsea unless they play Arsenal because they are Chelsea, and I hate them, so his play from Barcelona is still how I rate him.

But he was actually good. I just don't understand the double standard some people on here have for some players. And it in part, plays with my feelings towards Pedro. And Cavani.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
45,300
9,465
FWIW, it's the best I've seen Pedro play. I clearly don't bother watching Chelsea unless they play Arsenal because they are Chelsea, and I hate them, so his play from Barcelona is still how I rate him.

But he was actually good. I just don't understand the double standard some people on here have for some players. And it in part, plays with my feelings towards Pedro. And Cavani.

Which is ironic since you don't watch them play...unless it's the classico or a final.
 

Shrimper

Trick or ruddy treat
Feb 20, 2010
104,167
5,248
Essex
I have no respect for Wenger.

Arrogant *****. Overrated. Tarnishing his own legacy.

The nerve this guy has to lash out at people that think he's a **** manager. His recent record speaks for itself.

His recent record of three trophies in four years?
 

Shrimper

Trick or ruddy treat
Feb 20, 2010
104,167
5,248
Essex
You want him to stay?

I feel bad for you guys that he's staying.

You are one of those who makes excuses for him?

I'm not an Arsenal fan but I would point caution at removing him. Better the devil you know.

I'd give him this season to redeem himself, spend some cash get a top four spot and win the Europa League. If it doesn't work out, then let him walk next summer.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
113,011
15,073
I find it a somewhat sad commentary on the commercialisation of football that winning the FA Cup three times in four years can inspire such contempt for the manager responsible, regardless of the team's performance in other competitions/everything else that goes into the present-day Arsenal fan perception of Wenger. As amusing as it is to me to see these entitlement levels meet moon-howling rage whenever he does enough to stick around it's still sad to see both international fans who've got into the sport in the last decade deride the achievement as much as the tragic man children you get on Arsenal Fan TV who should really know better.
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
51,305
45,253
FWIW, it's the best I've seen Pedro play. I clearly don't bother watching Chelsea unless they play Arsenal because they are Chelsea, and I hate them, so his play from Barcelona is still how I rate him.

But he was actually good. I just don't understand the double standard some people on here have for some players. And it in part, plays with my feelings towards Pedro. And Cavani.

Pedro had a very good season.

I find it a somewhat sad commentary on the commercialisation of football that winning the FA Cup three times in four years can inspire such contempt for the manager responsible, regardless of the team's performance in other competitions/everything else that goes into the present-day Arsenal fan perception of Wenger. As amusing as it is to me to see these entitlement levels meet moon-howling rage whenever he does enough to stick around it's still sad to see both international fans who've got into the sport in the last decade deride the achievement as much as the tragic man children you get on Arsenal Fan TV who should really know better.

Of course it's an achievement, but it's still not on the same level as winning the league title or the Champions League. Wenger gets much deserved criticism because the FA Cup is the only thing he's won lately, despite being one of the highest revenue clubs in the world. That's as much, if not more on the owner though.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
34,951
12,225
North Tonawanda, NY
Pedro had a very good season.



Of course it's an achievement, but it's still not on the same level as winning the league title or the Champions League. Wenger gets much deserved criticism because the FA Cup is the only thing he's won lately, despite being one of the highest revenue clubs in the world. That's as much, if not more on the owner though.

I'd say it's not so much that he hasn't won, its that he's never been really close. They've been perennial also runs in the league and Europe for basically a decade.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
3,410
38° N 77° W
I find it a somewhat sad commentary on the commercialisation of football that winning the FA Cup three times in four years can inspire such contempt for the manager responsible, regardless of the team's performance in other competitions/everything else that goes into the present-day Arsenal fan perception of Wenger. As amusing as it is to me to see these entitlement levels meet moon-howling rage whenever he does enough to stick around it's still sad to see both international fans who've got into the sport in the last decade deride the achievement as much as the tragic man children you get on Arsenal Fan TV who should really know better.

It's a comment on the loss of relevance of the FA Cup. Years ago, when it was sponsored by Worthington, it was a joke to call the League Cup "Worthless Cup". The FA Cup isn't quite there yet but much closer to it than anyone would have thought possible 20 years ago. This whole can of worms was opened when they opened up the Champions League to non-champion teams but made it the 2nd/3rd/4th ranked teams and not the Cup winners. That was of course not by accident as it ups the value of league TV rights which are owned by the league clubs whereas the Cup TV rights are owned by the FA.

I regret that development as much as anyone but regular fans naturally adapt to the changed landscape. And that has little to do with whether they're from Malaysia, Illinois or Buckinghamshire.

And of course the very man we're talking about - Arsene Wenger - has adapted to that reality as well. While I am sure he's happy to have won the FA Cup, I am also quite sure that was not his primary or even secondary priority this season. If he knows the FA Cup's value is well below the CL and league position, then fans obviously will judge him by that standard too.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
34,951
12,225
North Tonawanda, NY
It's a comment on the loss of relevance of the FA Cup. Years ago, when it was sponsored by Worthington, it was a joke to call the League Cup "Worthless Cup". The FA Cup isn't quite there yet but much closer to it than anyone would have thought possible 20 years ago. This whole can of worms was opened when they opened up the Champions League to non-champion teams but made it the 2nd/3rd/4th ranked teams and not the Cup winners. That was of course not by accident as it ups the value of league TV rights which are owned by the league clubs whereas the Cup TV rights are owned by the FA.

I regret that development as much as anyone but regular fans naturally adapt to the changed landscape. And that has little to do with whether they're from Malaysia, Illinois or Buckinghamshire.

And of course the very man we're talking about - Arsene Wenger - has adapted to that reality as well. While I am sure he's happy to have won the FA Cup, I am also quite sure that was not his primary or even secondary priority this season. If he knows the FA Cup's value is well below the CL and league position, then fans obviously will judge him by that standard too.

If the CL didn't open up to 2nd/3rd/4th ranked teams the cups would be in the same boat because United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, etc would have formed a European super league already and the CL would be a nice side competition.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,710
16,238
Toruń, PL
As he was at Barca, Pedro is nothing special and easily replaceable (which they exactly did with Turan).

Like Luiz, he's still an above-average player worthy of starting XI football on a decent club (like Tottenham or Liverpool). But he's not great nor solid, just above-average with some good strengths somewhere in there.

His diving though is definitely an issue, and makes him less respectable after every game.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
3,410
38° N 77° W
If the CL didn't open up to 2nd/3rd/4th ranked teams the cups would be in the same boat because United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, etc would have formed a European super league already and the CL would be a nice side competition.

While this is often claimed, it's not at all a clear thing it would actually have happened. The threat was out there and they were talking about it, but it wasn't *extremely* close to actually happening. It happened in rugby league (in a very different scenario) but there would be a lot more to it in football.

This threat was always used as leverage by those clubs to get what they want but it remains an untested hypothesis. Football is important enough in the involved countries, many of which are at best 'ambivalent' in their attitude to free commerce, that legislation could have become a factor.

The irony is that after 20 years of the 'new CL' this option seems much more realistic than it did at the time as the gap between those clubs and the rest has gone from sizable to brutal since then.
 

phisherman

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
3,322
1,039
And of course the very man we're talking about - Arsene Wenger - has adapted to that reality as well. While I am sure he's happy to have won the FA Cup, I am also quite sure that was not his primary or even secondary priority this season. If he knows the FA Cup's value is well below the CL and league position, then fans obviously will judge him by that standard too.

Yet when he talked about the "4th place trophy" years ago EVERYONE were laughing at him.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
16,384
3,410
38° N 77° W
Yet when he talked about the "4th place trophy" years ago EVERYONE were laughing at him.

Well, it's become a lot trickier in that respect. People don't really want to celebrate 4th as a major win even though it's extremely vital for the club. It goes against our instincts to celebrate being 'pretty good' at something rather than 'the best'.

For fans, it's really become league title or CL win as far as 'happy end' definitions are concerned. Of course, in the NHL it's basically Cup or bust for many. People don't celebrate conference final runs after the season's end.
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
51,305
45,253
Well, it's become a lot trickier in that respect. People don't really want to celebrate 4th as a major win even though it's extremely vital for the club. It goes against our instincts to celebrate being 'pretty good' at something rather than 'the best'.

For fans, it's really become league title or CL win as far as 'happy end' definitions are concerned. Of course, in the NHL it's basically Cup or bust for many. People don't celebrate conference final runs after the season's end.

I think it has a lot to do with the stature of your club. For a small club that is trying to climb, celebrating a 4th place finish is perfectly acceptable as that is a big jump for them. For clubs that are at the top as far as revenue and stature already, aiming for 4th place just isn't acceptable.
 

Rocko604

Sports will break your heart.
Apr 29, 2009
8,562
273
Vancouver, BC
I'd say it's not so much that he hasn't won, its that he's never been really close. They've been perennial also runs in the league and Europe for basically a decade.

This.

The FA Cups are great to win. Gives the fans a moment of pride, we see our team lift a trophy at Wembley and it's one of the more storied competitions in Europe. Beating a crosstown rival is icing on the cake.

If we were Everton or West Ham, it would be a great story.

But we've seen this movie before. When we won in 2014 and 2015, title challenges were supposed to be coming. They didn't. And like usual, we were laughed out of the CL.

Truly the last time we were in contention in the League was maybe 2014, finishing seven points back, but we were throttled badly in losses to Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Everton. So while we looked close on paper, it's safe to say we were never truly in it. Before that? 2008.

I firmly believe Wenger will be staying, solely based off this Cup win, but I can't see how part 3 is going to be any different than the first two post-Cup win installments. If this season was any indication, it's going to be even worse.

Tricky part is, if there's no one of quality to replace him, we're better off with him staying but have him announce his he's leaving at the end of the contract.
 
Last edited:

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
30,719
8,080
St. Louis
I have no respect for Wenger.

Arrogant *****. Overrated. Tarnishing his own legacy.

The nerve this guy has to lash out at people that think he's a **** manager. His recent record speaks for itself.

Three trophies in four years? That record? Dortmund has one trophy in the last four years. Sit down. Be humble.
You want him to stay?

I feel bad for you guys that he's staying.

You are one of those who makes excuses for him?

When's the last time your boy Klopp won anything? What's Tuchel done in the last four years?

I don't love Wenger, but at least be honest to yourself.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
30,719
8,080
St. Louis
Yeah but I have a hunch that if not for that offside goal, Chelsea may well have won. They had a bad game but the course of the rest of the game was of course heavily affected by the offside goal.

Did you miss the entire first half? Also I don't think that's offside. Courtois didn't/shouldn't have changed position at all.

Maybe a handball, but even then, it's questionable.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
14,704
5,715
Halifax/Toronto
Did you miss the entire first half? Also I don't think that's offside. Courtois didn't/shouldn't have changed position at all.

Maybe a handball, but even then, it's questionable.

Aaron Ramsay literally ran at the ball, was inches away from it until Sanchez took it. That's absolutely offside.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->