2015 U18 World Championship: Guryanov's offensive exploits not enough to help Russia

[HF Article]

Team Russia won all four of their preliminary round games to finish atop Group A before being eliminated in the playoff round by Switzerland at the 2015 IIHF Ice Hockey U18 World Championship.


</p>Each U18 tournament brings an upset or two, and the 2015 IIHF Ice Hockey U18 World Championship has been no different. Probably the biggest upset took place in a quarter-final game today, with host country Switzerland eliminating Russia in a shocking 5-0 win. The Swiss had not beaten the Russians at this tournament since 1999, which was the first year for the U18.

The Russians looked like a medal contender after rolling through the preliminary round undefeated.… read more

The post 2015 U18 World Championship: Guryanov’s offensive exploits not enough to help Russia avoid elimination appeared first on Hockey's Future.



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[BlitzSnipe]

Don't know what was going on there. It must have been psychological. Where was Bragin in this game? That was a great coach who was doing his job, the current one didn't seem to be doing anything.

 

[Yakushev72]

Don't know what was going on there. It must have been psychological. Where was Bragin in this game? That was a great coach who was doing his job, the current one didn't seem to be doing anything.

Rumyantsev is, and has always been, grossly incompetent. Its not enough to have talented players to win. The kids have to have a way, a path to follow, a plan, to win in this kind of tournament. As much as anything, it was the huge coaching disparity that made a difference yesterday. The Swiss coach took kids with less talent, but created the strategy and tactics to win.

 

[kp61c]

Rumyantsev is, and has always been, grossly incompetent. Its not enough to have talented players to win. The kids have to have a way, a path to follow, a plan, to win in this kind of tournament. As much as anything, it was the huge coaching disparity that made a difference yesterday. The Swiss coach took kids with less talent, but created the strategy and tactics to win.

yes, but to be fair, it's not like he had some world-class talent on his hands. chebykin, rubtsov, kvartalnov, barabanov, vorobyev, ivanuzhenkov, belyaev. let's not fool ourselves. that's a cringeworthy list of forwards.

 

[Yakushev72]

yes, but to be fair, it's not like he had some world-class talent on his hands. chebykin, rubtsov, kvartalnov, barabanov, vorobyev, ivanuzhenkov, belyaev. let's not fool ourselves. that's a cringeworthy list of forwards.

I agree that there are lesser talents on the roster, which is the case for almost every other team. But what I am looking at is the pattern over time of U18 Russian teams being decimated in the U18 tournament, and then coming back in a year or two and excelling at U18. The Swiss team didn't seem to be more talented than Russia, but they clearly had a plan and strategy to lock down Russia's scoring capability and pressuring the Russian net themselves. It seems to happen year after year.

 

[malkinfan]

IMO no excuse whatsoever. Clearly they were a capable team going undefeated in the prelims including an impressive win over the US. To get decimated against the Swiss the way they did, no words can describe. They had more than enough elite forwards to at least score a single goal and more than capable goaltending to have been able to limit the bleeding.

 

[Fantomas]

yes, but to be fair, it's not like he had some world-class talent on his hands. chebykin, rubtsov, kvartalnov, barabanov, vorobyev, ivanuzhenkov, belyaev. let's not fool ourselves. that's a cringeworthy list of forwards.

He took them. Also, Vorobiev is a good player.

 

[kp61c]

He took them. Also, Vorobiev is a good player.

you miss the point, it's not like there were a bunch of standouts who were snubbed by him, well, except abramov, of course. to paint him as a main culprit, as some trying to do here, is just counter-productive. you look like tretyak and his cronies here, after every failre the new coach is an answer to all problems. sorry, the reality is a little more complex than this.

 

[Yakushev72]

you miss the point, it's not like there were a bunch of standouts who were snubbed by him, well, except abramov, of course. to paint him as a main culprit, as some trying to do here, is just counter-productive. you look like tretyak and his cronies here, after every failre the new coach is an answer to all problems. sorry, the reality is a little more complex than this.

Even though I am probably one of the guys you are talking about, I accept the validity of your point. Your point seems to be that there aren't a boat full of guys available who can step in and dominate this tournament, and you are right about that! IMO, there are still at least 2 big problems with success at the U18 level: (1) still not enough of a talent base developed by this age in comparison to what the possibilities could be, and (2) lack of competitive experience of Russian kids at this age that would teach them how to play defense in organize ways, and how to attack in organized ways. These are organizational problems that are more Tretyak's domain than Rumyantsev's.

But still, I can't completely forgive Rumyantsev for the disorganized mess I saw on display last week! Most stark was the contrast between the well-coached team from Switzerland, a fairly lowly little hockey country, and the embarrassing performance of the team which seemed to be equally talented with the Swiss. And the Ivanyuzhenkov boys don't contribute enough to fill the gap.

 

[vorky]

Even though I am probably one of the guys you are talking about, I accept the validity of your point. Your point seems to be that there aren't a boat full of guys available who can step in and dominate this tournament, and you are right about that! IMO, there are still at least 2 big problems with success at the U18 level: (1) still not enough of a talent base developed by this age in comparison to what the possibilities could be, and (2) lack of competitive experience of Russian kids at this age that would teach them how to play defense in organize ways, and how to attack in organized ways. These are organizational problems that are more Tretyak's domain than Rumyantsev's.

But still, I can't completely forgive Rumyantsev for the disorganized mess I saw on display last week! Most stark was the contrast between the well-coached team from Switzerland, a fairly lowly little hockey country, and the embarrassing performance of the team which seemed to be equally talented with the Swiss. And the Ivanyuzhenkov boys don't contribute enough to fill the gap.

Maybe RUS U18 NT playing MHL helps them in next season.

 

[Yakushev72]

Maybe RUS U18 NT playing MHL helps them in next season.

That would be similar to what the USA does, and they have fared well in a national team format.

 

[vorky]

That would be similar to what the USA does, and they have fared well in a national team format.

Yes, russian hockey federation inspires itself from US NTDP. It is done deal that RUS U18 NT (born 1998) plays MHL next season. Only players with KHL contract (3 y entry contract signed at age of 17) can play for "russian NTDP". So, russian hockey federation wants to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=388620

 

[Yakushev72]

Yes, russian hockey federation inspires itself from US NTDP. It is done deal that RUS U18 NT (born 1998) plays MHL next season. Only players with KHL contract (3 y entry contract signed at age of 17) can play for "russian NTDP". So, russian hockey federation wants to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=388620

I'm in favor of that!

 

[Fantomas]

you miss the point, it's not like there were a bunch of standouts who were snubbed by him, well, except abramov, of course. to paint him as a main culprit, as some trying to do here, is just counter-productive. you look like tretyak and his cronies here, after every failre the new coach is an answer to all problems. sorry, the reality is a little more complex than this.

You project too much.

 

[Fantomas]

Even though I am probably one of the guys you are talking about, I accept the validity of your point. Your point seems to be that there aren't a boat full of guys available who can step in and dominate this tournament, and you are right about that! IMO, there are still at least 2 big problems with success at the U18 level: (1) still not enough of a talent base developed by this age in comparison to what the possibilities could be, and (2) lack of competitive experience of Russian kids at this age that would teach them how to play defense in organize ways, and how to attack in organized ways. These are organizational problems that are more Tretyak's domain than Rumyantsev's.

But still, I can't completely forgive Rumyantsev for the disorganized mess I saw on display last week! Most stark was the contrast between the well-coached team from Switzerland, a fairly lowly little hockey country, and the embarrassing performance of the team which seemed to be equally talented with the Swiss. And the Ivanyuzhenkov boys don't contribute enough to fill the gap.

Yes, there is something to be said for the tactics employed in this tournament which reflect poorly on the coaching staff.

In general there is something rotten at the U18 level, because Russia consistently ices badly chosen and coached teams. In such contrast to the U17 and U20 displays in recent years.

 

[Yakushev72]

Yes, there is something to be said for the tactics employed in this tournament which reflect poorly on the coaching staff.

In general there is something rotten at the U18 level, because Russia consistently ices badly chosen and coached teams. In such contrast to the U17 and U20 displays in recent years.

Agreed. By the time these guys reach the U20 level, its as if they are entirely different players from when they seemed dazed and confused at U18. I like the idea of an U18 national team playing a regular schedule in the MHL. Might give the Americans some competition.

 

[cska78]

Yes, russian hockey federation inspires itself from US NTDP. It is done deal that RUS U18 NT (born 1998) plays MHL next season. Only players with KHL contract (3 y entry contract signed at age of 17) can play for "russian NTDP". So, russian hockey federation wants to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=388620

that's kinda dumb...So if a 17 year old kid is developed in Tyumen or anywhere in VHL he can't play on the NTDP team; therefore, most likely he can't play on the NT team either? This opens floodgates for more corruption, imho

 

[cska78]

Agreed. By the time these guys reach the U20 level, its as if they are entirely different players from when they seemed dazed and confused at U18. I like the idea of an U18 national team playing a regular schedule in the MHL. Might give the Americans some competition.

I don't like this idea. Is our goal to win a meaningless Glinka or U18 WJC? or to raise good solid players? The logistics of shuffling players between the KHL parent teams and U18 is unclear. The merits for selection of this players for the U18 team is also unclear. This will not stop players from going to NA and this will prevent best of the talents making it to the top through obstacles of corruption in Junior hockey level.

 

[vorky]

that's kinda dumb...So if a 17 year old kid is developed in Tyumen or anywhere in VHL he can't play on the NTDP team; therefore, most likely he can't play on the NT team either? This opens floodgates for more corruption, imho

I read the link I posted. The video says that a kid has to sign KHL or MHL contract to play at team. I am almost sure it applies to VHL as well. The point is to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

 

[cska78]

I read the link I posted. The video says that a kid has to sign KHL or MHL contract to play at team. I am almost sure it applies to VHL as well. The point is to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

and how will this stop them from leaving? All the RA kids who left were leaders in the MHL without any NDTs. What's the earliest you can sign at 17? They will start leaving at 15 like Korostelev.

One needs to build a system where players will wanna stay, not the system building obstacles to leave, so agents look and find loopholes.

 

[wings5]

I read the link I posted. The video says that a kid has to sign KHL or MHL contract to play at team. I am almost sure it applies to VHL as well. The point is to reduce number of russian kids moving to NA.

I don't see either how this stops them from leaving, the kids go from a system where they are top 6 players on their locals teams to playing a whole season on the bottom lines with less icetime. Young kids with talent like this will look for more icetime and look for another option (NA). Also doesn't prevent the kids who didn't make the team from leaving. If anything the amount of kids who leave will be the same if not more imo.

 

[Yakushev72]

and how will this stop them from leaving? All the RA kids who left were leaders in the MHL without any NDTs. What's the earliest you can sign at 17? They will start leaving at 15 like Korostelev.

One needs to build a system where players will wanna stay, not the system building obstacles to leave, so agents look and find loopholes.

I have no idea whether forming an U18 national team as an entry to the MHL would stop or even slow down the flow of the best prospects lining up at the airport to get to Kootenay or Sault Ste. Marie as fast as possible. Last year, 49 Russian kids played in the CHL, and next year, the total is expected to be around 64. Those aren't just 64 kids, those are the 64 BEST KIDS! But they won't be the 64 best for long. The vast majority were a work in progress when they left, and their growth will stop after a couple of years in a hockey style and culture that is totally alien to them, where they are isolated by inability to speak the language, and where they will ultimately quit hockey by their 20th birthday.

Russia gets nothing out of this flow to the CHL. After 7 or more years of all of the talent flowing out to the CHL, the 2015 WJC team was still predominantly kids from Russian teams, and there were only 2 CHL-based players - Barbashev and Tolchinsky - who contributed to the team. Surely the CHL/NHL brass must wonder whether the huge influx of Russian refugees is working tot their benefit, but the RHF certainly knows that it sure as hell doesn't help Russia.

So they have got to try something to convince the kids to stay home. And they can't wait until Russia has completed its journey down the road to end all corruption. The best leverage the RHF has now, IMO, is access to national teams. Participating in national teams is what separates top prospects from merely being good prospects. It is what makes their name known, and marketable. Their financial and job security future is heavily impacted by the ability to be a "world class" player. If you are not world class, then you will be required to work for less money and less security. So access to the NT is critical to those who have dreams of big things for themselves!

I don't know if a NDP is a great idea of not, but separating the top U18 prospects and assigning to an NT doesn't prevent any other prospect from playing in the MHL, or even the CHL, if they choose. But if they go to the CHL, they can't play on the U18 team, and unless they are really successful and develop in the CHL, they won't be on the U20 team either.

 

[helicecopter]

I don't like this idea. Is our goal to win a meaningless Glinka or U18 WJC? or to raise good solid players? The logistics of shuffling players between the KHL parent teams and U18 is unclear. The merits for selection of this players for the U18 team is also unclear. This will not stop players from going to NA and this will prevent best of the talents making it to the top through obstacles of corruption in Junior hockey level.

exactly same feelings here

 

[Caser]

I have no idea whether forming an U18 national team as an entry to the MHL would stop or even slow down the flow of the best prospects lining up at the airport to get to Kootenay or Sault Ste. Marie as fast as possible. Last year, 49 Russian kids played in the CHL, and next year, the total is expected to be around 64. Those aren't just 64 kids, those are the 64 BEST KIDS! But they won't be the 64 best for long. The vast majority were a work in progress when they left, and their growth will stop after a couple of years in a hockey style and culture that is totally alien to them, where they are isolated by inability to speak the language, and where they will ultimately quit hockey by their 20th birthday.

Russia gets nothing out of this flow to the CHL. After 7 or more years of all of the talent flowing out to the CHL, the 2015 WJC team was still predominantly kids from Russian teams, and there were only 2 CHL-based players - Barbashev and Tolchinsky - who contributed to the team. Surely the CHL/NHL brass must wonder whether the huge influx of Russian refugees is working tot their benefit, but the RHF certainly knows that it sure as hell doesn't help Russia.

So they have got to try something to convince the kids to stay home. And they can't wait until Russia has completed its journey down the road to end all corruption. The best leverage the RHF has now, IMO, is access to national teams. Participating in national teams is what separates top prospects from merely being good prospects. It is what makes their name known, and marketable. Their financial and job security future is heavily impacted by the ability to be a "world class" player. If you are not world class, then you will be required to work for less money and less security. So access to the NT is critical to those who have dreams of big things for themselves!

I don't know if a NDP is a great idea of not, but separating the top U18 prospects and assigning to an NT doesn't prevent any other prospect from playing in the MHL, or even the CHL, if they choose. But if they go to the CHL, they can't play on the U18 team, and unless they are really successful and develop in the CHL, they won't be on the U20 team either.

Very interesting point of view, although I'm not sure that I completely share it, still I really enjoyed reading it, thanks.

 

[wings5]

I have no idea whether forming an U18 national team as an entry to the MHL would stop or even slow down the flow of the best prospects lining up at the airport to get to Kootenay or Sault Ste. Marie as fast as possible. Last year, 49 Russian kids played in the CHL, and next year, the total is expected to be around 64. Those aren't just 64 kids, those are the 64 BEST KIDS! But they won't be the 64 best for long. The vast majority were a work in progress when they left, and their growth will stop after a couple of years in a hockey style and culture that is totally alien to them, where they are isolated by inability to speak the language, and where they will ultimately quit hockey by their 20th birthday.

Russia gets nothing out of this flow to the CHL. After 7 or more years of all of the talent flowing out to the CHL, the 2015 WJC team was still predominantly kids from Russian teams, and there were only 2 CHL-based players - Barbashev and Tolchinsky - who contributed to the team. Surely the CHL/NHL brass must wonder whether the huge influx of Russian refugees is working tot their benefit, but the RHF certainly knows that it sure as hell doesn't help Russia.

So they have got to try something to convince the kids to stay home. And they can't wait until Russia has completed its journey down the road to end all corruption. The best leverage the RHF has now, IMO, is access to national teams. Participating in national teams is what separates top prospects from merely being good prospects. It is what makes their name known, and marketable. Their financial and job security future is heavily impacted by the ability to be a "world class" player. If you are not world class, then you will be required to work for less money and less security. So access to the NT is critical to those who have dreams of big things for themselves!

I don't know if a NDP is a great idea of not, but separating the top U18 prospects and assigning to an NT doesn't prevent any other prospect from playing in the MHL, or even the CHL, if they choose. But if they go to the CHL, they can't play on the U18 team, and unless they are really successful and develop in the CHL, they won't be on the U20 team either.

I agree with some of what is said here, but then the obvious problem is the many top players leaving, imo the u18 NDP team will not stop this flow of players leaving, so what can they do to stop it? Sweden and Finland seem to do a good enough job.