2015 Re-Draft, you have the 3rd pick overall

[Sidney the Kidney]

Side note on Marner. Near draft day, many Flyers fans, including myself, saw Marner as having Giroux like upside. I still do. It won't surprise me at all to see him jump up to an 80+ point guy this coming year. He just needs to do it as others already have.

Agree with this. One thing I think Giroux has an edge over him is his shot from long range. Giroux can hammer a pretty good one-timer from that left dot/left half wall. But on the other hand, I think Marner's a better skater.

 

[LeafFever]

Marner Still hasn't done anything close to what Rantanen or Barzal has done.


You dont put up 84 points in your sophomore season riding off the coattails of someone else. Rantanen created a tonne of his chances and produced a lot of his points on his own accord.



Until Marner actually goes out and has a season like what Barzal and Rantanen did he really shouldn't be in this conversation and doesn't appear to be for anyone other then Leafs fans.


It's the same story with Matthews. They both might have the upside to be PPG, 80+ point forwards. But neither one of them have actually went and did it yet. They cant be compared to or grouped in with guys that have already accomplished this stuff until they actually do it. That seems to be the disconnect from reality a lot of Leafs fans have with your good young players.

Oh come on, Leaf fans are giving you very good explanations why they are very good young players and why the stats are what they are.
It's ironic that in so many threads if you cite stats you are a "Stat Watcher", but in this case, only stats count.

Rantanen got 2:30 minutes of TOI than Marner and played with an MVP candidate. What disconnect from reality is there exactly?

 

[CodeE]

This idea that Barzal's going to suffer because he's not going to be "sheltered" anymore as the 2C is just plain goofy. Let me ask you guys this: how many 2Cs took advantage of being "sheltered" to score 85 points last season? Or the season before? Or any season in the last decade?

2Cs don't go around scoring 85 points.

Dude's just a special player. He's electric. And I say that as a fan of a divisional rival.

I've been on this website for over a decade now, I've honestly never seen such a large-scale attempt to discredit a rookie's season as being a fluke.

NOBODY is saying Boeser, Keller, McAvoy, Sergachev, or any other rookies will take a major step back, or "I have a strong feeling their best season already happened", or anything like that.

But every Barzal thread turns into "I can't wait until he scored 60 next year and Eichel scores 80+, then you'll all look foolish for liking Barzal".

 

[Tripod]

So when Barzal has 60 points this year and Eichel has 80+ can we go back to saying he was the 2nd best player in the draft?

And what if Eichel has 75 and others have 80+?

then what?

Reality is, 2 people(mcDavid aside) have posted 84 and 85 points respectively from that draft....and neither are Eichel.

Why does that not matter??

 

[Viqsi]

Werenski does nothing better than Provorov

Don't be absurd.

* * *​

I've been on this website for over a decade now, I've honestly never seen such a large-scale attempt to discredit a rookie's season as being a fluke.

NOBODY is saying Boeser, Keller, McAvoy, Sergachev, or any other rookies will take a major step back, or "I have a strong feeling their best season already happened", or anything like that.

But every Barzal thread turns into "I can't wait until he scored 60 next year and Eichel scores 80+, then you'll all look foolish for liking Barzal".

It interferes with the narrative that the Islanders are done and irrelevant without Tavares. Therefore it cannot be borne.

 

[Raymoondo]

And what if Eichel has 75 and others have 80+?

then what?

Reality is, 2 people(mcDavid aside) have posted 84 and 85 points respectively from that draft....and neither are Eichel.

Why does that not matter??

Dumb question, but who's the person that scored 84 points?

EDIT: sorry forgot Rantanen was in this draft somehow

 

[mja]

I've been on this website for over a decade now, I've honestly never seen such a large-scale attempt to discredit a rookie's season as being a fluke.

NOBODY is saying Boeser, Keller, McAvoy, Sergachev, or any other rookies will take a major step back, or "I have a strong feeling their best season already happened", or anything like that.

But every Barzal thread turns into "I can't wait until he scored 60 next year and Eichel scores 80+, then you'll all look foolish for liking Barzal".

I think it's part not actually getting a chance to really watch him play and part plain disbelief. I saw every Isles Flyers game last year and it was just smack you in the face obvious that dude is going to be a star player in this league. He's such a dynamic player and I'd be really jealous of the Isles if the Flyers hadn't grabbed Provorov, and even then it wouldn't surprise me at all if Barzal ended up being the better player when it's all said and done.

 

[TheDoldrums]

I've been on this website for over a decade now, I've honestly never seen such a large-scale attempt to discredit a rookie's season as being a fluke.

NOBODY is saying Boeser, Keller, McAvoy, Sergachev, or any other rookies will take a major step back, or "I have a strong feeling their best season already happened", or anything like that.

But every Barzal thread turns into "I can't wait until he scored 60 next year and Eichel scores 80+, then you'll all look foolish for liking Barzal".

I think I've said that Boeser could regress a few times

 

[Dustin]

I've been on this website for over a decade now, I've honestly never seen such a large-scale attempt to discredit a rookie's season as being a fluke.

NOBODY is saying Boeser, Keller, McAvoy, Sergachev, or any other rookies will take a major step back, or "I have a strong feeling their best season already happened", or anything like that.

But every Barzal thread turns into "I can't wait until he scored 60 next year and Eichel scores 80+, then you'll all look foolish for liking Barzal".

Not that I am defending the "step back" crowd but there has been plenty of Boeser talk. Furthermore most of the players you mentioned had no where near the rookie season that Barzal had. On top of that most of those player come from not only better teams but better situations as well. I personally think Barzal will be fine this upcoming year even if his point totals fluctuate.

 

[leafsfan2point0]

Im expecting ~75 to 85 for both Marner and Barzal if they stay healthy this season. Really liked both in their draft year

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Oh come on, Leaf fans are giving you very good explanations why they are very good young players and why the stats are what they are.
It's ironic that in so many threads if you cite stats you are a "Stat Watcher", but in this case, only stats count.

Rantanen got 2:30 minutes of TOI than Marner and played with an MVP candidate. What disconnect from reality is there exactly?

Was MacKinnon an MVP candidate before Mikko? Not even close. They both help each other and people trying to make it seem like it’s all MacK are just out to lunch.

 

[TheKingPin]

and your credibility goes out the door via the bolded

Tavares scoring 85 points: completely normal
Lee had 34 goals the prior season
Eberle scoring 25 goals is completely normal
Bailey with 70 points is not

Whats your point?

My point is Lee had 40 goals. That’s a lot. Bailey had 70 pts. That’s a lot.

The system/situation clearly led to an increase is goals. It’s not unreasonable to think Barzal will not score the same next year. I’d put money he does not.

 

[Strait2thecup]

My point is Lee had 40 goals. That’s a lot. Bailey had 70 pts. That’s a lot.

The system/situation clearly led to an increase is goals. It’s not unreasonable to think Barzal will not score the same next year. I’d put money he does not.

“Even eberle has scored 25 goals” waiting for you to explain that one

Lee scored 34 in the year period so 40 isn’t a jump that you could attribute to an all out offensive system.

Baileys season was odd

 

[nbwingsfan]

It's crazy how deep this draft is.

A player like Marner would be a solid 1st overall pick in a lot of different years, yet you could say that he may have been taken too early at 4th overall so far.

You could easily place him as low as 7th with players like Boesner, Connor, Aho etc not that far behind.

Insane year.

 

[biturbo19]

At the time of the draft, it would've been a really tough decision for me between Marner and Werenski. It's so close that with defense being so much more valuable than wingers, i probably would've gone that way. I was out on a bit of a limb in how much i liked Werenski in that draft though.

Since then, he's really done nothing to dissuade me from that, but i'd honestly probably go with Provorov if given the benefit of hindsight over these last few years. Provorov's development has just been beyond impressive. He's already a more well-rounded #1D, and he's done it without a Seth Jones caliber partner. Frankly, he's had mostly not even Top-4 caliber partners along the way.

 

[Knight53]

1. McDavid
2. Eichel
3. Barzal
4. Boeser
5. Provorov

 

[Tripod]

At the time of the draft, it would've been a really tough decision for me between Marner and Werenski. It's so close that with defense being so much more valuable than wingers, i probably would've gone that way. I was out on a bit of a limb in how much i liked Werenski in that draft though.

Since then, he's really done nothing to dissuade me from that, but i'd honestly probably go with Provorov if given the benefit of hindsight over these last few years. Provorov's development has just been beyond impressive. He's already a more well-rounded #1D, and he's done it without a Seth Jones caliber partner. Frankly, he's had mostly not even Top-4 caliber partners along the way.

you mean Andrew MacDonsld is not a top 4 Dman?



Lugging around AMac for 1.5 years certainly gives you lots of practice in playing defense!

 

[newfy]

@McNuge its definitely not the broad street bullies of yesteryear. We have some nice pieces but like you said, goaltending. It’s always goaltending lol (besides a couple good years out of mason). I think with a little success ppl will realize we’re a likable team to the impartial viewer. And i can’t complain, every team has a hidden gem or two that doesn’t get the love they deserve.

You just gotta have your fingers crossed Carter Hart is the real deal and Philly could win a cup. If he has a Vasilevsky or Hellebuyk type rookie year/entrance to the NHL, the Flyers are going to be scary. Theyre probably the most well rounded team (or second after Tampa) in the Eastern conference if they had good goaltending.

 

[TheKingPin]

“Even eberle has scored 25 goals” waiting for you to explain that one

Lee scored 34 in the year period so 40 isn’t a jump that you could attribute to an all out offensive system.

Baileys season was odd

They had similar coaching before this past season. So it makes no sense to compare to the year prior and make a point. Way to hang your hat on the least productive guy I mentioned. I’m not even saying Barzal is bad. He’s awesome. But he’s not an 85 pt player next year. I promise you that. And the point of it all was that Provy is best for that 3 spot.

 

[Strait2thecup]

They had similar coaching before this past season. So it makes no sense to compare to the year prior and make a point. Way to hang your hat on the least productive guy I mentioned. I’m not even saying Barzal is bad. He’s awesome. But he’s not an 85 pt player next year. I promise you that. And the point of it all was that Provy is best for that 3 spot.

Oooooo so you’re trying to knock Barzal to Pump up your guy!

The point I’m making is you made it sound like the biggest anomaly there was a guy whos paced for an average of 26 goals per season throughout his careee scoring 25 as if it’s some huge deviation, which quite blatantly shows you have no idea what you’re talking about.

And now you just called capuano and weights coaching similar, while capuanos “system” (he was a really bad coach) was focused almost entirely on defense. You’re simultaneously claiming they were similar yet one of them was allegedly according to you all out offense (you’re wrong) and one was basically the opposite of what you’re saying.

Just admit you don’t know anything about the isles and you’re trying to push a narrative to make an argument for provorov. It’s pretty obvious

 

[Absolut]

Barzal is a sexy pick, but it's the Russian Robot Boy (aka Provorov) for me. He has phenomenal defensive instincts. Players like him do not come along often.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They had similar coaching before this past season. So it makes no sense to compare to the year prior and make a point. Way to hang your hat on the least productive guy I mentioned. I’m not even saying Barzal is bad. He’s awesome. But he’s not an 85 pt player next year. I promise you that. And the point of it all was that Provy is best for that 3 spot.

You speak in very definitive terms there.

 

[Absolut]

You just gotta have your fingers crossed Carter Hart is the real deal and Philly could win a cup. If he has a Vasilevsky or Hellebuyk type rookie year/entrance to the NHL, the Flyers are going to be scary. Theyre probably the most well rounded team (or second after Tampa) in the Eastern conference if they had good goaltending.

After Provorov (and Ghost to some extent) what do they have on D to suggest they can win the cup? Sanheim is a nice player (should be legit 3/4) but overall I am not sure they have the goods. Then again, the Caps didn't have a roster full of Hedmans either.

 

[CodeE]

You speak in very definitive terms there.

This past season was littered with oh so many definitive guarantees of how many points Barzal wouldn't score "once he came back down to earth".

Now, unlike literally every other hockey player 25 or under who fans expect to improve their games and get better, Barzal is expected to regress from scoring 85 points as a 20-year-old to getting much worse as a 21-year-old.

But please guys, tell me more about your 23 and 24 year old AHL players that you expect will make a huge impact at the NHL level once they get up here like Gourde did.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This past season was littered with oh so many definitive guarantees of how many points Barzal wouldn't score "once he came back down to earth".

Now, unlike literally every other hockey player 25 or under who fans expect to improve their games and get better, Barzal is expected to regress from scoring 85 points as a 20-year-old to getting much worse as a 21-year-old.

But please guys, tell me more about your 23 and 24 year old AHL players that you expect will make a huge impact at the NHL level once they get up here like Gourde did.

It's just kind of weird at this point. Almost every other player who has a strong season, they're expected to just keep on improving the next year. Barzal's the rare breed who is almost a lock to regress, apparently.

Granted, there's a difference between minor statistical regression and actual player regression -- maybe Barzal scores 80 points instead of 85 or whatever -- but people seem to envision this drop down to like 55 or 60 points and where he's closer to a high end 2C than a 1C.

I can't recall the last player who creates chances like Barzal who actually regressed badly the following year. Usually, the players who "regress" after a strong year are more the goal scores who rely on someone to set them up and also rely more on puck luck and high shooting percentages. I can't recall the last elite playmaker and chance creator that did.