2014 CBJ Offseason Thread II (All proposals, "blog" rumors, speculation in here)

[thebus2288*]

Arty and Foligno will be easy to trade if needed.

I'm sure. Why do you think that is?

You don't trade those guys until the prospects actually come in and outplay them.

Ya I wish this was the case for our defense...

 

[Kev22]

Arty and Foligno will be easy to trade if needed. You don't trade those guys until the prospects actually come in and outplay them.

That's the one thing I think needs to be made clear, spots are not being saved for prospects. Prospects need to make their own spot with their play. We're in a position, finally, that we don't have to push the youngster to perform at the NHL level until they're ready. I'm as excited about players like Wennberg, Rychel, Bjorkstrand, etc. but this is the first time that we're in a position to let them mature properly. I wouldn't be surprised the see Wennberg back to Sweden and Rychel, Dano, Bjorkstrand, etc. back to junior or to Springfield. Detroit has been fantastic at this, I'd like to see the organization emulate that.

 

[Cowumbus]

Do you guys think some of the guys above would give us a hometown discount or no?
I think we should try and keep the youngest team together

I also think cam atkinson on the top line may be a good idea

 

[thebus2288*]

45-50 point players are not worth 6 million per year, doesn't matter how much you want to emphasize the "intangibles". The new salary system is ****ed when those types of players are making that much money. I like Dubinsky a lot, would love him to spend another 5 years here, but at 6 million? Come on, that is ludicrous. Also Foligno is not better than Horton, you haven't even seen a healthy Horton in Columbus yet. Any you're right, I have no problem with guys like Vanek and Gaborik getting that much money, they put up 25-30 points more per year and as far as Wisniewski, if he's putting up 50 points as a defender, yeah, I'd say he is worth 5 million plus as his defensive issues are nowhere near as bad as you have convinced yourself that they are.

Intangibles are real homie. Some players have them, and others are given credit even when they don't possess them. You need to look no further than how Nash was seen here for the vast majority of the time. The way Dubinsky plays the game and handles himself on the ice is so different than a Nash/Vanek/Gaborik/Ovechkin that it angers me the way people talk negatively about him and other similar players like Foligno. Their offensive production and value seem to get overlooked just because they bring more to a team than just that.

 

[Cowumbus]

Would like to have Dmack back but if not I would be okay with it. IMO I doubt we can get a big UFA signing so a player less elite would probably be okay with me I mean I think Raymond at around 1 mill would be fine and we could probably try to get another dman. I doubt we can but I would like wrhoff on the team but I feel like he is asking for too much money. But just sign a player like Raymond and I would be happy with this lineup.

Hartnell Johansen Atkinson/Jenner
Foligno Anisimov Atkinson/Jenner
Raymond Dubinsky Horton
Calvert Wennberg Letestu

 

[thebus2288*]

If it's like my definition, a guy who's good for 20 goals and 50-55 points under the right circumstances. He'll get as low as 15 goals and 40 points, or as high as 25 goals and 65 points, but outside of that is square in the middle. PP time, but not a real power play ace. PK time, but not exactly Malhotra or Pahlsson out there.

Comps: Callahan, Horton, Vermette, Stepan, Ladd, Brown, Wheeler, Kesler, Little, Hartnell, etc.

I mean I can't really disagree that much. I will say that I think Dubi is underrated when it comes to his true skill offensively. He could improve his shot, but I think his speed, puck control, passing and just simply his offensive awareness is on par with JUST ABOUT any teams 2nd best center. He is a top guy in the league though when it comes to faceoffs. That's a real intangible. And I do disagree a bit with the PK comment. Like faceoffs, I think Dubi is truly a top guy in the league when it comes down to it. Again that's a legit quality that cannot be overlooked.

I think that list in a weird way actually shows the value that Dubi really brings. It really is hard to find guys that are comparable to him in more than a couple ways. And the ones that are, are very valuable/important pieces to their teams. The only ones I would compare to Dubi there are probably Callahan, Ladd, Brown and Kesler. Other than Kesler being maybe a better pure shooter I don't see anything that these guys do BETTER than Dubi.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Would like to have Dmack back but if not I would be okay with it. IMO I doubt we can get a big UFA signing so a player less elite would probably be okay with me I mean I think Raymond at around 1 mill would be fine and we could probably try to get another dman. I doubt we can but I would like wrhoff on the team but I feel like he is asking for too much money. But just sign a player like Raymond and I would be happy with this lineup.

Hartnell Johansen Atkinson/Jenner
Foligno Anisimov Atkinson/Jenner
Raymond Dubinsky Horton
Calvert Wennberg Letestu

You definetly do not play a rookie like Wennberg on the 4th line. I'd rather him play in the AHL. Have Chaput play 4th line C if that's the case.

 

[major major]

If it's like my definition, a guy who's good for 20 goals and 50-55 points under the right circumstances. He'll get as low as 15 goals and 40 points, or as high as 25 goals and 65 points, but outside of that is square in the middle. PP time, but not a real power play ace. PK time, but not exactly Malhotra or Pahlsson out there.

Comps: Callahan, Horton, Vermette, Stepan, Ladd, Brown, Wheeler, Kesler, Little, Hartnell, etc.

I think as a C/W Dubinsky can't be compared to the wingers in your group. And his shutdown play against Crosby should be the stuff of legend, and he should be positively compared to the best defensive centers.

Dubinsky is worth $6m on the open market, and I think he's worth that much to us. I just hope we sign him soon, I think it's bad for the team to drag this sort of thing out with a core player.

 

[Fro]

we can't do anything until 7/1 on Dubi...

 

[major major]

Count me in the group who takes losing D-Mac seriously. I would be sad to see him go on a gut level, but I also think we'd really miss what he brings on the ice. He's going to get a big raise, and I don't see why we shouldn't be the ones to give it. 2 yrs $4m, why not?

Edit: I'd be curious what alternatives for the fourth line folks would prefer? I think if you put Chaput back there, last year's stats suggest that's about 10 fewer goals for the fourth line over the year. That's easily worth the extra million.

 

[CBJx614]

That's the one thing I think needs to be made clear, spots are not being saved for prospects. Prospects need to make their own spot with their play. We're in a position, finally, that we don't have to push the youngster to perform at the NHL level until they're ready. I'm as excited about players like Wennberg, Rychel, Bjorkstrand, etc. but this is the first time that we're in a position to let them mature properly. I wouldn't be surprised the see Wennberg back to Sweden and Rychel, Dano, Bjorkstrand, etc. back to junior or to Springfield. Detroit has been fantastic at this, I'd like to see the organization emulate that.

The F/O has already made it clear that Wennberg is playing in NA next year so really he is playing for a spot in the NHL this year. Also Dano and Rychel have no other option but AHL or NHL so it is possible that both of them COULD play they're way onto the club this year as well. Not saying its likely but it is a possibility that cant be overlooked. Jenner went back to play in the OHL and came back the next year and made first line and hasnt looked back, could be similar to Wennberg going back to the SHL last year as he bulked up, rounded out his game and matured a bit since we drafted him. I agree that we need to make them play their way on but if they wow you at camp then you give them the opportunity to get some minutes in the big league.

But i think giving players like Dano, Rychel and Wennberg top line minutes for 1/4 or 1/2 the season in the AHL could do them wonders. I think Cam and RJ definitely grew because of their time they were forced to play in the AHL.

 

[CBJx614]

Intangibles are real homie. Some players have them, and others are given credit even when they don't possess them. You need to look no further than how Nash was seen here for the vast majority of the time. The way Dubinsky plays the game and handles himself on the ice is so different than a Nash/Vanek/Gaborik/Ovechkin that it angers me the way people talk negatively about him and other similar players like Foligno. Their offensive production and value seem to get overlooked just because they bring more to a team than just that.

Thats why I have so much faith in JD/JK because I think thats something they emphasize is that character and the intangibles are just as important as skill. And if you can build a team full of intangibles and skill sky is the limit. Thats why i dont see us really signing for just any FA it has to be the right guy. And maybe that's why they're targeting a guy likr legwand, we can sit here and argue about his stats and how he plays, but who he is as a person off the ice, in the locker room and on the bench are just as important.

 

[EspenK]

we can't do anything until 7/1 on Dubi...

True and i would hope his extension is done sooner rather than later. Don't want to give him any incentive to think about testing the FA market next summer.

 

[Doug19]

Intangibles are real homie. Some players have them, and others are given credit even when they don't possess them. You need to look no further than how Nash was seen here for the vast majority of the time. The way Dubinsky plays the game and handles himself on the ice is so different than a Nash/Vanek/Gaborik/Ovechkin that it angers me the way people talk negatively about him and other similar players like Foligno. Their offensive production and value seem to get overlooked just because they bring more to a team than just that.

Whatever you say homie. Do you think Toews is worth 10 mil per year? Seems like you put damn near a 2 million value on intangibles, which you are incorrect. Dubie is great for what he does, but at 6 million per year you'd expect the guy to be a top line guy who puts up a lot of points, that isn't Dubinsky's game. He's a great second line guy, he nor is Foligno worth 6 million and in Foligno's case 5 million per year.

 

[Doug19]

Count me in the group who takes losing D-Mac seriously. I would be sad to see him go on a gut level, but I also think we'd really miss what he brings on the ice. He's going to get a big raise, and I don't see why we shouldn't be the ones to give it. 2 yrs $4m, why not?

Edit: I'd be curious what alternatives for the fourth line folks would prefer? I think if you put Chaput back there, last year's stats suggest that's about 10 fewer goals for the fourth line over the year. That's easily worth the extra million.

It's to bad that Boll seems to be cashing McKenzie's paycheck.

 

[EspenK]

You definetly do not play a rookie like Wennberg on the 4th line. I'd rather him play in the AHL. Have Chaput play 4th line C if that's the case.

And why not? Minutes? If he gets 10 minutes a game here that could be just as valuable as 20 in Springfield imo. I'm not saying he should just that I don't think you should categorically say no way. Plus with injuries/slumps/doghouses etc there is a chance he could play up in the lineup from time to time.

 

[Doug19]

And why not? Minutes? If he gets 10 minutes a game here that could be just as valuable as 20 in Springfield imo. I'm not saying he should just that I don't think you should categorically say no way. Plus with injuries/slumps/doghouses etc there is a chance he could play up in the lineup from time to time.

If your fourth line is Letestu and say Tropp why not give him let him play fourth line center if he earns it? both those guys are skilled guys that can score goals occasionally. I'd be okay with that as long as Boll wasn't on his wing.

 

[CBJx614]

And why not? Minutes? If he gets 10 minutes a game here that could be just as valuable as 20 in Springfield imo. I'm not saying he should just that I don't think you should categorically say no way. Plus with injuries/slumps/doghouses etc there is a chance he could play up in the lineup from time to time.

But playing a player like Wennberg as the #1C in the AHL allows you to see how a player reacts to being the go to guy allowing him to gain that mental experience, compared to just seeing a little bit of ice time each game.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Thats why I have so much faith in JD/JK because I think thats something they emphasize is that character and the intangibles are just as important as skill. And if you can build a team full of intangibles and skill sky is the limit. Thats why i dont see us really signing for just any FA it has to be the right guy. And maybe that's why they're targeting a guy likr legwand, we can sit here and argue about his stats and how he plays, but who he is as a person off the ice, in the locker room and on the bench are just as important.

Yeah, JD/JK really brought high character and intangibles to the team when the acquired Matt Frattin, Blake Comeau, Jack Skille, Illari Melart, Nick Shultz, and gave the player with 0 intangibles (Jared Boll) a ridiculous extension.

 

[thebus2288*]

Yeah, JD/JK really brought high character and intangibles to the team when the acquired Matt Frattin, Blake Comeau, Jack Skille, Illari Melart, Nick Shultz, and gave the player with 0 intangibles (Jared Boll) a ridiculous extension.

Haha each 1 of those guys was seen as a depth player. Either 4th line or 3rd pairing at best. But character and intangibles ARE probably why they were brought in. And i'm sick of reading all this Boll hate from you guys. Jared Boll is a legit NHL fighter/enforcer who can play a regular shift during a game(10-12 min) and not be a liability. He also has just as much of an offensive impact as half the 4th liners in the league.

Back to intangibles in good players. The question is how much more(or less, to some) valuable are players like Dubinsky and Foligno as compared to "highly skilled" point producers like: Vanek, Nash, Grabovski, Ribiero, Ovechkin etc.

 

[Fro]

boll isn't a liability??? wow...

 

[thebus2288*]

Boll seems to be the only person that you guys care that's overpaid by a million. Do you guys really understand what this guy does for a living? What he has been doing for your team the last 7 years? Do you not see the role he plays for this team? His hitting, skating/forecheck, board play and net presence are all valuable to our team. Not to mention, HE IS AN ENFORCER. He's not a guy like Dorsett/Carcillo/Rinaldo that you just don't like to have to deal with. He's a guy that guys will LEGIT think about before taking a run at Murray, Jenner, Cam, Cal, Johan, etc. And it may not seem like he "wins" most of his fights but I'll ask you this, when is the last time you saw a guy with even the slightest smile on his face after dropping them with Boll?

And please tell me, how is he a liability? Can you think of 1 incident that he hurt the team? And he makes how much again? It's not like he makes 5 million a year.

 

[Fro]

let's see...w/o actually going back and looking at things....

loses nearly every fight
misses checks to check the glass
doesn't score
doesn't assist
is routinely out of place on forecheck...

 

[thebus2288*]

Ok so which 1 of those is even an opportunity to be a liability?

Besides the last 1, which is just false.

 

[Sore Loser]

let's see...w/o actually going back and looking at things....

loses nearly every fight
misses checks to check the glass
doesn't score
doesn't assist
is routinely out of place on forecheck...

Would you rather have Dubinsky take on the role of enforcer? Because in the playoffs, he was the only one who seemed to care when James Neal continuously ran into Sergei Bobrovsky.

Whether or not he wins every fight is moot. His presence alone can be enough to keep guys honest. Yes, his contract is not good, but he's a guy who is unanimously loved in the locker room and does at least serve some value here. If his contract were half of what it is, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.