2014-15 General Wild Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

ThatGuy22

Registered User
Oct 11, 2011
10,517
4,194
If that's true, I think Yeo's making a mistake in Vanek's usage (assuming he's seen the same matchups as Koivu). He's not a top go-to guy offensively and lacks defense. If you want good numbers out of him, I suggest you give him easier matchups. That means you either deploy the line differently or take him off it.

Agree completely. If you're going to use Koivu to shut down opposition while providing offense, you need wingers to do the job. One of these three are probably ideal for shutting down and generating offense.

Parise-Koivu-Nino (my preferred)
Parise-Koivu-Coyle
Nino-Koivu-Coyle

Vanek's simply not that kind of player.
 

Gaps

Registered User
Oct 3, 2012
3,190
0
Agree completely. If you're going to use Koivu to shut down opposition while providing offense, you need wingers to do the job. One of these three are probably ideal for shutting down and generating offense.

Parise-Koivu-Nino (my preferred)
Parise-Koivu-Coyle
Nino-Koivu-Coyle

Vanek's simply not that kind of player.

Agreed. Even the thought of the combination of 'Thomas Vanek' and 'top shutdown/offensive line' makes me :laugh: He's quite worthless in that role, which is why I didn't think Yeo would go for that. Koivu's been deployed against high level competition for a long time (if it hasn't been top lines, it's been top D and 2nd lines) and it's his thing, but not Vanek's. That doesn't mean he won't score at all while he's there, but if you acquire a guy like him with a very specific skillset, at least have the decency to use him right for God's sake.
 

Lapa

Global Moderator
Feb 21, 2010
13,154
2,067
If that's true, I think Yeo's making a mistake in Vanek's usage (assuming he's seen the same matchups as Koivu). He's not a top go-to guy offensively and lacks defense. If you want good numbers out of him, I suggest you give him easier matchups. That means you either deploy the line differently or take him off it.

This is an excellent point. Vanek isn't exactly known for his defensive skills.

I'm thinking..

Vanek-Granlund-Poms
Parise-Koivu-Zucker
Nino-Haula-Coyle
Cooke-Brodziak-Fontaine
 

tomgilbertfan

#WhyBother
Jun 22, 2008
16,024
268
Minnesota
lulz

B0hE4TFIMAA0lVI.jpg:large


Also, I want that sweatshirt. Looks sweet.

Yup. Would pay good money for that one.

@mnwild: Want to match @CharlieCoyle_3 & @Jason_Zucker16? Call @SOH_Store (normal business hrs) 651-726-8254 to order #mnwild

https://twitter.com/mnwild/status/524945792843661312
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
Well, you didn't pay Vanek $6.5m and Parise $7.5m each to be shutdown defensive players, so I don't see why you would put them on Koivu's shutdown line. Coyle I'm fine with on RW since he's not much of a scorer. I still think Zucker would work better there on LW over Nino, who seems like a guy who could set up Vanek nicely with Haula.
 

ThatGuy22

Registered User
Oct 11, 2011
10,517
4,194
Well, you didn't pay Vanek $6.5m and Parise $7.5m each to be shutdown defensive players, so I don't see why you would put them on Koivu's shutdown line. Coyle I'm fine with on RW since he's not much of a scorer. I still think Zucker would work better there on LW over Nino, who seems like a guy who could set up Vanek nicely with Haula.

With Parise there, its a line that shuts down opponents and generates good offense.

Parise and Koivu together have been 57.1% CF and 58% GF for the Wild. The net Goal and shot differential they provide is extremely good.
 

Gaps

Registered User
Oct 3, 2012
3,190
0
Well, you didn't pay Vanek $6.5m and Parise $7.5m each to be shutdown defensive players, so I don't see why you would put them on Koivu's shutdown line. Coyle I'm fine with on RW since he's not much of a scorer. I still think Zucker would work better there on LW over Nino, who seems like a guy who could set up Vanek nicely with Haula.

I think we have a different definition of Koivu's line. It's not the 3rd line. It's supposed to be a high-end multipurpose line capable of shutting down top competition and scoring at a decent rate. Good 2-way players can be used that way and for example the Finnish NT has often deployed Koivu this way, with suitable wingers (not bottom 6 guys). In other words: it's not a line that you equip with stone-handed grinder wingers but at least one good 2-way winger. That's what you pay Koivu 6.75 mil and Parise 7.5 mil for but you certainly don't pay Vanek 6.5 mil for that (I wouldn't pay him 1.0 mil to do that).
 

Harvest

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
1,120
0
Right now I think i'ts obvius that Yeo aren't gonna split Parise and Granlund, and Pominville hasn't look that good with Koivu(don't know why..) so I would assume that first line is gonna stay as it is.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
I think we have a different definition of Koivu's line. It's not the 3rd line. It's supposed to be a high-end multipurpose line capable of shutting down top competition and scoring at a decent rate. Good 2-way players can be used that way and for example the Finnish NT has often deployed Koivu this way, with suitable wingers (not bottom 6 guys). In other words: it's not a line that you equip with stone-handed grinder wingers but at least one good 2-way winger. That's what you pay Koivu 6.75 mil and Parise 7.5 mil for but you certainly don't pay Vanek 6.5 mil for that (I wouldn't pay him 1.0 mil to do that).

Zucker and Nino don't have stone hands though. Those guys could drive possession as good as anyone on the roster.

The Koivu line so far looks like they don't NEED Parise on the line. They are shutting down the opponent with Vanek, who's not a strong defensive guy. So why trade out one 30+ goal scorer for another on that line? Why not put a guy who might only get 15 goals? Then you are matching your 30+ goal scorers against secondary players for the other team, where they can get more scoring chances.
 

ThatGuy22

Registered User
Oct 11, 2011
10,517
4,194
Zucker and Nino don't have stone hands though. Those guys could drive possession as good as anyone on the roster.

The Koivu line so far looks like they don't NEED Parise on the line. They are shutting down the opponent with Vanek, who's not a strong defensive guy. So why trade out one 30+ goal scorer for another on that line? Why not put a guy who might only get 15 goals? Then you are matching your 30+ goal scorers against secondary players for the other team, where they can get more scoring chances.

Only so many minutes to go around, and I think you're going to be somewhat limiting both Vanek and Koivu(who are both 60+ point players and paid a lot of money) by putting Vanek with Haula.

Pretty much
Vanek-Granlund-Pominville is a 1st line on most teams
Parise-Koivu-Nino/Coyle is a 1st line on most teams
Nino/Zucker-Haula-Coyle/Zucker is a highend 3rd line on most teams

While

Parise-Granlund-Pominville = 1st line
Nino-Koivu-Coyle = 2nd line
Vanek-Haula-Zucker = High End 3rd line

1st configuration looks the best to me.

Also I should note, if you're splitting Vanek, Koivu and Parise onto 3 separate lines, those lines should likely be deployed evenly at 5v5. I have zero faith in Yeo's ability or willingness to do that.
 

Gaps

Registered User
Oct 3, 2012
3,190
0
Zucker and Nino don't have stone hands though. Those guys could drive possession as good as anyone on the roster.

The Koivu line so far looks like they don't NEED Parise on the line. They are shutting down the opponent with Vanek, who's not a strong defensive guy. So why trade out one 30+ goal scorer for another on that line? Why not put a guy who might only get 15 goals? Then you are matching your 30+ goal scorers against secondary players for the other team, where they can get more scoring chances.

Zucker isn't ready for that kind of competition. He's still very green despite the improvements in his play. He can't help in this case. And chances are Nino wouldn't be put there even if he was the last healthy winger although I would prefer him over both Coyle and Zucker.

I'm going to repeat this: The idea of the Koivu line isn't just to shut the opponents down, you don't use a 6.75 mil guy to do that when he's capable of more than that while still shutting down top competition at the same time. It'd be a waste of money and bad for team scoring, as is deploying Vanek on that line. Parise would be capable of putting in the ~30 goals while being used in that role, Vanek isn't. There's the difference. The longer you use him like this, the more likely his game will deteriorate and he won't score even when he gets the chances.

If the aim was to get a winger for Koivu's line and to be deployed this way, they should've forgotten about Vanek and rather thought about trading for someone more suited for the role as there weren't many good FA options available. But nooo, it had to be Vanek. Well, what's done is done. The Wild can be a more dangerous team than last year with him on it, but currently they aren't and a big part of that's on Yeo.

I admit I share the same concern regarding a Vanek-Granlund-Pominville line that someone else already voiced earlier, as in that there could be stretches where both wingers are having a cold streak at the same time. But the thing is that we need to find a place for Vanek where the money he's being paid and his skillset aren't being completely wasted and for now that's our best shot IMO.
 

El Nino22

Registered User
Nov 19, 2010
1,155
0
When thinking about the Wild lines and how they could be altered to get guys like Koivu and Vanek going offensively, it should be kept in mind that switching around lines are clicking is just addition by subtraction. The PPG line needs to stay intact. The offensive zone time, chances created, and general puck possession domination that line continually produces is too good to mess with.

The Koivu line hasn't been producing at the expected level offensively but it does take time to develop chemistry. Four games doesn't provide anything conclusive in terms of production or chemistry. Vanek is perfect for Koivu's line because he is like a much better version of Bruno (who Koivu was fantastic with). Vanek is great in front of the net and is strong on the puck in the corners and behind the net while making some ridiculous passes on the tape for chances. The biggest thing is finding a finisher for that line.

I don't think Fontaine is that guy or really Coyle either. Zucker to me is best suited to that role in terms of skills and makeup (speedy, shot first mentality, can pick corners), but I agree with the other posters who have said right now he isn't ready for that role on a consistent basis. The guy who I think really fits well there, but it will never happen, is Haula. Obviously the Wild want to keep him at center despite switching Coyle to center every other game. The next best choice IMO is Nino. Nino has the speed to be on that without hurting it, but he needs to shoot more and use that wicked wrist shot. What better way to do that then putting him with two guys who will feed him cookies to one-time or create space to fire off the wing while also having Vanek there to tip a shot or clean up the rebound.

Parise-Granlund-Pominville
Vanek-Koivu-Nino
Zucker-Haula-Coyle
Cooke-Carter-Fontaine

In a dream scenario
Parise-Granlund-Pominville
Haula-Koivu-Vanek
Zucker-Coyle-Nino
Cooke-Carter-Fontaine

I know Haula won't be moved to wing, but how nice would that be especially considering how often Koivu gets kicked out of the circle?
 

BigT2002

Registered User
Dec 6, 2006
16,287
232
Somwhere
Parise-Granlund-Zucker (not supposed to be out there for defense anyways)
Vanek-Haula-Poms
Nino-Koivu-Coyle
Cooke-Carter/Brodziak-Fontaine

Would at least be interesting to see. Won't happen, but regardless.
 

BusQuets

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
11,942
2,852
Vanek-Koivu are couple Vanek whiffs away from being 0.5ppg. So i would give them a couple games still atleast with Coyle.

Also it seems nice on paper to have Haula with Vanek but that line still couldn't play as much as Vanek needs to play. Haula can't seem to win faceoffs so basically every time this line is put in after a whistle it will give possession to opponent and I'm guessing Yeo hates that.
 

NHL1674

Whatever...
Sponsor
Aug 8, 2008
28,041
5,275
Minnesota
Koivu is slow enough....I honestly think Coyle would slow that line down even further. Vanek is so damn close to finally getting that first goal. He's just been very snakebitten. I'd hate to take away the chances he's been getting by slowing that line down more than it already is.

Maybe I'm wrong and it'll work, but I just don't see it happening.
 

Jarick

Doing Nothing
I'll change my tune on Parise playing with Koivu when they stop dumping and chasing the puck and grinding along the boards and start making plays and attacking the offensive zone with a scoring mindset. Parise said this offseason he wants to carry the puck more and I see it. Unless Koivu gets quicker, I don't see him carrying the puck through the NZ. Same with Vanek. Doesn't have the foot speed. Those two look sluggish out there.

Coyle has some speed and can carry the puck sometimes, but he reflexively grinds rather than attempting to make plays with the puck. He seems to be shooting a bit more after others make plays, but when he's leading the zone entry rather than trailing (as he will be with Vanek and Koivu), is he going to evade the backchecker and make moves to get the puck to Koivu/Vanek? Or will he dump the puck and chase and lay a hit on the defender as the D moves the puck to his partner behind the net who will start the breakout with a pass because Vanek and Koivu are just entering the zone?

In a way, I could see Coyle as a finisher like Pommer or Vanek. So playing him with a guy who has some speed where Coyle can crash the net, that seems like a plus to me. Hence my curiosity of playing him with Zucker. He seems to be doing fine with Haula as well.

For Vanek, same kind of thing, I see him as needing someone who can carry the puck up ice to him, or create some space by drawing defenders. Koivu hasn't been that guy for years, and I don't see that out of Coyle. Maybe he would work better with Granlund and Pommer? I think that would be one alternative. I could also see Haula's breakout passes as well as IF Nino keeps the foot on the gas, opening up some space for Vanek.

I've been disappointed by Haula's slow start this year. A lot of things broke well for him last year and so far he seems a bit stymied. BUT. His line has nearly as many SOG as the second line, and they have been threats all year. I'd like to see that play out more.

I guess the heart of the issue for me is that Coyle is, once again, given the preferential treatment to play on the second line with increased ice time and PP time. Over Nino, over Zucker. There's a disconnect between his performance and his rewards from the coaching staff. I know a lot of people write me off (that's perfectly fine) because I haven't liked Coyle or Koivu that much the last couple years, but there's a lot of people I see on these boards asking the same questions. Why is it always Coyle who gets bumped up and not Zucker or Nino? We hear the LW answer...but then why did Zucker get half a game on the second line when he scored with them earlier? Why was Nino playing RW half of last year? I don't buy it.

Scoring solves a lot of problems, and if the Wild played twice as many games and likely had more success, we probably wouldn't be having these conversations. Hell, Koivu could have 5 points in the next two games and I look like an idiot. I guess we'll just wait and see. But if Yeo keeps going to the same well that has not produced, why keep going to it over and over? I'd hate to see another 10-15 games where the team struggles offensively save for a few good games, and then they have a hard draw in the first round.
 

rynryn

Reluctant Optimist. Permanently Déclassé.
May 29, 2008
33,315
3,347
Minny
it's four games in. they hinted or flat out said players were going to be moving around all year. At least that's what i gathered from listening to the player/coach/GM interviews. It's been four games, two of them against the same opponent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad