2013 New Jersey Devils (Team/Player Discussion)- Offseason FA and trade talk Part V

[njdevils1982]

The 2nd section is tremendous. Trying to put people on the same scale of overall point production despite a different number of games being played. You're ignoring a key aspect of the whole thing though....

#Injuries

malkin was 64th....he sucks too

 

[Desert Devil]

Lost me when I heard Kovalchuk is a terrible hockey player who is ruining the organization.

 

[JimEIV]

Kovy didn't have a good (cough) year...by year being thirty-five games or whatever it was. And even with that for all the talk of hihs idiosyncrascies and how he's supposedly bad for the team they were still a lot better with him than without him. When the guy has that kind of impact on the team in a poor - for him - year, there's no argument about whether he's an asset to the team or not.

Who said a ****** player can't help a team? A crap team without talent gets help expodentially with anything. Its like Calgary getting Camellari back in the lineup. **** getting a little toilet paper.

 

[BrodeursCups]

There are times when Jim is, in fact, trolling. He also has a very firm (and sometimes extreme) opinion on #17. It's not trolling, whether you agree with it or not, when he's stating his opinion.

A lot of this goes back to what I believed back in the day when Kovy was re-signed: Lou was preparing for life without Praise. The potential is there that Clarkson and Elias both leave whether you want to accept it or not. Parise's already gone. Imagine if we didn't have Kovy...Post our top-9 for next year sans all those players who's scoring goals?

This Praise horse is dead, so we can stop kicking it. He wasn't coming back...

 

[JimEIV]

malkin was 64th....he sucks too

64th vs 150....I see your point.

 

[Scott04]

#filterbygamesplayed


Not much better.

If I know how to maths, 46th in points per game is far better than tied for 81st in total points. The percentage of that jump is a pretty big indicator that your argument is rather flawed and biased.

#YouCanHashtagOnFacebookNow

And lets not understate his contributions in that limited time. 14 power play points on an anemic PP, 4 short handed goals, 5 game winning goals. We would have been nowhere without him. Nothing wrong with paying the catalyst of your offense the highest salary on your team.

malkin was 64th....he sucks too

Exactly my point.

 

[JimEIV]

Lost me when I heard Kovalchuk is a terrible hockey player who is ruining the organization.

And you believe Volchenkov is a good player right? Dismissed.

 

[njdevils1982]

There are times when Jim is, in fact, trolling. He also has a very firm (and sometimes extreme) opinion on #17. It's not trolling, whether you agree with it or not, when he's stating his opinion.

A lot of this goes back to what I believed back in the day when Kovy was re-signed: Lou was preparing for life without Praise. The potential is there that Clarkson and Elias both leave whether you want to accept it or not. Parise's already gone. Imagine if we didn't have Kovy...Post our top-9 for next year sans all those players who's scoring goals?

This Praise horse is dead, so we can stop kicking it. He wasn't coming back...

"praise" the lord

 

[NJDevs26]

46th in PPG, and where does Kovy rank in cap #? Actual salary only matters to Vanderbeek, and you can always backload a couple contracts if one guy's frontloaded deal is an issue.

Another example of how the talking points are intentionally skewed to fit a flawed argument.

 

[JimEIV]

46th in PPG, and where does Kovy rank in cap #? Actual salary only matters to Vanderbeek, and you can always backload contracts if one guy's frontloaded deal is causing a problem.

Another example of how the talking points are skewed to fit a flawed argument.

In cap space??? Stop it! Your disingenuous is beyond ridiculous. The devils are paying him 11 million and for the right to get a 6.66 cap hit they paid 3 million in cash they barely had, a 3rd and 1st round pick that has further decimated their horrible pipeline.

Stop talking about" cap hit" you look like an idiot.

 

[Balance]

There are times when Jim is, in fact, trolling. He also has a very firm (and sometimes extreme) opinion on #17. It's not trolling, whether you agree with it or not, when he's stating his opinion.

A lot of this goes back to what I believed back in the day when Kovy was re-signed: Lou was preparing for life without Praise. The potential is there that Clarkson and Elias both leave whether you want to accept it or not. Parise's already gone. Imagine if we didn't have Kovy...Post our top-9 for next year sans all those players who's scoring goals?

This Praise horse is dead, so we can stop kicking it. He wasn't coming back...

It really doesn't matter to me if he's doing it on purpose or as a joke. The very fact that people consider it to be a joke is enough to show how valid it really is.

 

[devilsblood]

46th in PPG, and where does Kovy rank in cap #? Actual salary only matters to Vanderbeek, and you can always backload a couple contracts if one guy's frontloaded deal is an issue.

Another example of how the talking points are intentionally skewed to fit a flawed argument.

But Kovy is set to make $10+ for the next 5 years. That would have to be one heck of a backloaded deal.

 

[Scott04]

The Devils have the greatest drafting record in the history of the world. Especially in the last half dozen years. The picks lost were GUARANTEED stars.

 

[Balance]

In cap space??? Stop it! Your disingenuous is beyond ridiculous. The devils are paying him 11 million and for the right to get a 6.66 cap hit they paid 3 million in cash they barely had, a 3rd and 1st round pick that has further decimated their horrible pipeline.

Stop talking about" cap hit" you look like an idiot.

The Devils paid him 6m for 2 years in his absolute prime that led us to the SCF.

That is enough of a bargain, let alone the fact that a franchise player deserves franchise money.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

who in the HELL cares about $3 million and a 3rd round pick

the 1st sucks, sure, but good God stop bringing up that other crap.

 

[BrodeursCups]

46th in PPG, and where does Kovy rank in cap #? Actual salary only matters to Vanderbeek, and you can always backload a couple contracts if one guy's frontloaded deal is an issue.

Another example of how the talking points are intentionally skewed to fit a flawed argument.

Cap hit? Not even in the top 25.

 

[devilsblood]

In cap space??? Stop it! Your disingenuous is beyond ridiculous. The devils are paying him 11 million and for the right to get a 6.66 cap hit they paid 3 million in cash they barely had, a 3rd and 1st round pick that has further decimated their horrible pipeline.

Stop talking about" cap hit" you look like an idiot.

Devils have only themselves to blame for that.

And I do wonder why the Dev's were so intent in spreading the $$$ out over such a time so as to make for a more reasonable cap hit if they were not going to spend anywhere near the cap.

 

[Scott04]

We gave up Johnny Oduya. He scores clutch stanley cup goals. We would have won the cup with him last year instead of Kovy.

Referencing what was "lost" makes no logical sense. Its not so simple as a direct sign of value given away. Some players wouldn't have made an impact here that they did elsewhere, draft picks wouldn't necessarily be good players, or ones who contribute to this franchise, no one knows where any money from fines would have gone. Its all speculative and really means nothing.

 

[Balance]

I'm done about arguing with Kovalchuk with this guy.

Kovalchuk is the player that deserves the least criticism of his play due to what he brings for the team. Things like Kovalchuk's production being questioned and Kovalchuk versus Parise discussions are really just complete insults to anyones intelligence and do not belong here.

 

[NJDevs26]

But Kovy is set to make $10+ for the next 5 years. That would have to be one heck of a backloaded deal.

He's making $4 million over cap in salary on a $60 million payroll, bfd. Every team's star player has years like that under the old system in their prime where they're making a couple million over cap salary. Parise and Suter are getting $6.5 million over cap in salary the next couple of years lol.

And if the Devils had offered the $6.6 million contract initally I doubt they get dinged to the extent they did on the penalty. They didn't get dinged the penalty for that, they got dinged the penalty for trying to get him at $6 million per over a longer term. And for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and paying the piper for other shady cap issues in the past (Matvichuk, Mogilny).

If anything the penalty was more than what they actually gave up for him in the trade.

 

[guyincognito]

Re: Cap Hit.

It ceased to be relevant once they went bust, and now, presumably need to live within their means. If the salary budget for next year is say $60M cash money, his functional hit is $11M.

The $6.6M thing was clever if you were rich and wanted to spend say, $75M on a $70M salary cap.

 

[JimEIV]

who in the HELL cares about $3 million and a 3rd round pick

the 1st sucks, sure, but good God stop bringing up that other crap.

Rationalization: You have a few more steps to go, but acceptance feels good. Trust me.

 

[devilsblood]

The Devils paid him 6m for 2 years in his absolute prime that led us to the SCF.

That is enough of a bargain, let alone the fact that a franchise player deserves franchise money.

Sure the 2 years at $6 million were a bargain, but the flip side of that bargain will be upon us in the not to distant when we are paying a 34 yr old guy $11 million dollars.

But I don't bemoan the contract, I understand overpaying players is a part of professional sports. And these overpayments are a matter of degree, and I don't see Kovy's deal as egregious.

 

[apice3*]

Here we return for our second day at the Bassmasters. We must say this may be the first time a fisherman has ever been eaten by a fish at this lovely tournament.

 

[Scott04]

Re: Cap Hit.

It ceased to be relevant once they went bust, and now, presumably need to live within their means. If the salary budget for next year is say $60M cash money, his functional hit is $11M.

The $6.6M thing was clever if you were rich and wanted to spend say, $75M on a $70M salary cap.

I think it goes beyond that in terms of keeping an operating cap for hockey ops more than anything. Remember the cap issues we had a few years ago where Lou had to try to waive Rolston or a few other players because we were right up at the cap? I think the team learned from that to leave a cushion so that's no longer an issue. I would wager that its more of a restriction on operating cap than on pure dollars spent. We may have to wait and see based on what contracts are signed this off-season for more info that may confirm or deny that, but its a logical assumption. Take Zajac's new deal. The start of his highest pay years ($6.5 mil a year for middle 4 years of the deal) are during the two highest pay years of Kovy's contract ($11.6 and $11.8 mil). If the limit was a pure expense figure, I don't think you would see that alignment. Zajac would have likely gotten something a little more flat, or at least not as well in line with Kovy's biggest pay days.