2012 Re-Draft on NHL.com is laughable

[Daximus]

Yeah, I'm cherrypicking. You *totally* didn't make like half a dozen demonstrably false claims, based only on his hockey-card stats. Ok.

Haha half a dozen false claims. I never even made half a dozen claims about either of them. Simply posted their ice time and points per game. Then you went off as if I called him the worst player in the league. It was a single season comparison between two players to show another poster than Slavin is in no way shape or form ahead of Trouba at this point as he claimed he was the best defencemen from the draft. Then you came in and had to throw your two cents in about how "nobody but Carolina fans can say anything about Slavin because we're a small market team blah blah blah woe is me."

 

[Daximus]

No, just Slavin. I'd be interested in hearing, from you, what he specifically needs to improve upon.

Well that answer is simple. If he's not a world beater, and he isnt, he needs to improve on the same thing every young defencemen needs to improve on. All aspects of the game. I don't think any of these kids will tell you they can't improve all aspects of their game at all times. Absolutely no one is perfect.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Well that answer is simple. If he's not a world beater, and he isnt, he needs to improve on the same thing every young defencemen needs to improve on. All aspects of the game. I don't think any of these kids will tell you they can't improve all aspects of their game at all times. Absolutely no one is perfect.

That's the most ridiculous nothing answer I've ever read.

 

[Daximus]

That's the most ridiculous nothing answer I've ever read.

What would it prove if I gave any other kind of answer. It would be really easy to bull **** my way out even if I hadn't seen him play once over the last two seasons. A quick search on the Canes board for Slavin and a quick search around a few other areas would yield enough information for me to completely bs an in depth report on him. Come on guys this proves nothing.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Do you want to phone a friend?

Strengths

Defensive Acumen – Slavin is a legitimate impact player in that respect with suffocating gap control, strong stickwork and excellent awareness (body positioning, timely aggressiveness, etc.) His work shorthanded has been phenomenal, playing nearly 75% of all the SH ice time on one the league’s best PKs. I’d say he’s the best defenseman defensively I’m seen in my years watching Carolina. I try not to be the type that looks at things through Black & Red glasses. He’s been that impressive on that side of the puck.

Puck Moving Ability – Slavin is at his best offensively in transition. One aspect of his game that is noticeable if you watch him is his escapability breaking the puck out of the defensive zone; he’s able to effectively maneuver his way out of sketchy situations in the defensive zone with crafty stickhandling and elusive skating. Slavin may not make the highlight reel stretch passes that more offensively oriented defenseman make, but he’s very efficient in advancing the puck without turning it over. When the time comes to join the rush, he’s able to do that effectively.

Weaknesses

The Offensive Zone – This is Slavin’s primary weakness. If he’s unable to reach that upper echelon of defenseman, it will be that area that holds him back. I don’t know if it’s a question of skill or conservatism, but he plays it really safe at the line for the most part. I say for the most part as he did show some surprising creativity with the puck this past season at times. There may be a reason to bullish about his offensive potential moving forward because of that. His shot is weak. He won’t generate a lot shooting from distance with his wrister or slapper. I see a 5 goal guy moving forward, barring some significant work in the offseasons.

Physical Play – Not a huge weakness given his defensive acumen, but he does play a non-physical style. He has the frame to be more effective clearing the front of the net, if he wants to.

 

[Daximus]

Do you want to phone a friend?

Strengths

Defensive Acumen – Slavin is a legitimate impact player in that respect with suffocating gap control, strong stickwork and excellent awareness (body positioning, timely aggressiveness, etc.) His work shorthanded has been phenomenal, playing nearly 75% of all the SH ice time on one the league’s best PKs. I’d say he’s the best defenseman defensively I’m seen in my years watching Carolina. I try not to be the type that looks at things through Black & Red glasses. He’s been that impressive on that side of the puck.

Puck Moving Ability – Slavin is at his best offensively in transition. One aspect of his game that is noticeable if you watch him is his escapability breaking the puck out of the defensive zone; he’s able to effectively maneuver his way out of sketchy situations in the defensive zone with crafty stickhandling and elusive skating. Slavin may not make the highlight reel stretch passes that more offensively oriented defenseman make, but he’s very efficient in advancing the puck without turning it over. When the time comes to join the rush, he’s able to do that effectively.

Weaknesses

The Offensive Zone – This is Slavin’s primary weakness. If he’s unable to reach that upper echelon of defenseman, it will be that area that holds him back. I don’t know if it’s a question of skill or conservatism, but he plays it really safe at the line for the most part. I say for the most part as he did show some surprising creativity with the puck this past season at times. There may be a reason to bullish about his offensive potential moving forward because of that. His shot is weak. He won’t generate a lot shooting from distance with his wrister or slapper. I see a 5 goal guy moving forward, barring some significant work in the offseasons.

Physical Play – Not a huge weakness given his defensive acumen, but he does play a non-physical style. He has the frame to be more effective clearing the front of the net, if he wants to.

All well and good but what does this have to do with comparing him to other defencemen in his draft class? This is why we have stats. Though unfortunately puckalytics is gone and outside of hockeyref and nhl.com stats, in depth comparisons are getting hard to do.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

natural stat trick

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

daximus is my new favorite poster

srry bathcat

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who cares how he actually plays, when you can look at his point total and rank him from there?

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Who cares how he actually plays, when you can look at his point total and rank him from there?

That is why we have stats, after all.

 

[The S5]

1. Murray at 1 is either extremely logical and right, or an atrocious case of overrating. It really depends on who you're asking, but I'm leaning more towards the latter option. A top 10 choice for sure, but Murray shouldn't be in the top 5.

2. Forsberg is extremely good - not many have proven both goalscoring talent and solid two-way play at his age. Very accurate.

3. Galchenyuk... yeah, he should definitely be lower, even if he is leading the draft class in points and games played.

4. Personally, I have Lindholm at 1. That's me being high on him, and for a damn good reason. The guy is awesome.

5. Rielly is a tad too high.

6. Oh my. TT is not even the best 2012 draftee who plays for the Canes. What a dumpster fire of a choice at 6.

7. Ghost is a solid pick, but not solid enough to warrant the seventh spot (he's close, though). That being said, I assume that his rookie season is still raising some eyebrows among those who submit these lists.

8. I think Murray barely belongs to the top 10. You might be able to figure out my take on Vasi based on that.

9. What a steal of a pick in the original draft. 9 might be low by a slot or two in the redraft.

10. I guess Hertl is ranked a bit too high.

11. This is a travesty. One of the two clear 1Ds of the draft at this point, who should be an unanimous top 3 choice.

12. I have no problems with this.

13. Murray > Andersen > Vasi. For real though, comparing goalies to skaters is so damn tough, especially when the criterion couldn't be more vague than this.

14. This draft wasn't good for those who were in need of forwards. Pearson is easily a first rounder in the redraft, although I would put him closer to 20 than 10.

15. I find Skjei's rookie year overrated - he faced easy minutes and got his chances to produce. I want to see more of him in a more difficult role before putting him as high as most would.

16. I thought I was offended by Trouba being at 11. Now I am.

Maybe lists are just name recognition after all. For me, Slavin is at 4.



From 17 and onwards, I really don't know enough about the guys to comment on them. My list:

1. Lindholm
2. Forsberg
3. Trouba
4. Slavin
5. Parayko
6. Rielly
7. Galchenyuk
8. Murray
9. Gostisbehere
10. Määttä
11. Murray
12. Severson
13. Andersen
14. Hertl
15. Skjei
16. Dumba
17. Matheson
18. Ceci
19. Vasilevskiy
20. Pearson

So you went through all that explanation and put Maata at 10.

 

[beowulf]

Having Anderson on this list is kind of stupid since his original draft was 2010. The number of goalies in the first round is also kind of laughable.

 

[Maukkis]

So you went through all that explanation and put Maata at 10.

Misspelling his name isn't a good argument on your part to begin with, and considering how you weren't able to put up anything else to support your statement, I assume that I have no reason to change my mind.

 

[Daximus]

Who cares how he actually plays, when you can look at his point total and rank him from there?

So you want to rank entirely by eye test? Have at er bud. Let me know how that works out for you. By the way you haven't said what you think please exalted Carolina fans enlighten us to your almighty lists.

 

[Daximus]

That is why we have stats, after all.

No they are useless the only way to judge a player is to watch every single game they play, its the Carolina way. But you guys cant possibly judge Slavin completely because I'm sure you never watched every game he played in the USHL or College. I mean Colorado was a small market after all.. you've probably never even heard of it or Slavin or hockey in general. You couldn't possibly know anything about hockey without watching every game. Should probably just find a new sport to be a fan of.

 

[Daximus]

daximus is my new favorite poster

srry bathcat

What a brilliant contribution to the discussion.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Well that answer is simple. If he's not a world beater, and he isnt, he needs to improve on the same thing every young defencemen needs to improve on. All aspects of the game. I don't think any of these kids will tell you they can't improve all aspects of their game at all times. Absolutely no one is perfect.

I don't think you know what the word specific means . . .

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

No they are useless the only way to judge a player is to watch every single game they play, its the Carolina way. But you guys cant possibly judge Slavin completely because I'm sure you never watched every game he played in the USHL or College. I mean Colorado was a small market after all.. you've probably never even heard of it or Slavin or hockey in general. You couldn't possibly know anything about hockey without watching every game. Should probably just find a new sport to be a fan of.

That's a strawman. Nobody has said you have to watch every game. But I'd expect you to have seen a reasonable sample size of his play before comparing him to other players (enough to provide a breakdown of his specific strengths and weaknesses, which you obviously have not been able to do).

 

[tarheelhockey]

So you want to rank entirely by eye test? Have at er bud. Let me know how that works out for you. By the way you haven't said what you think please exalted Carolina fans enlighten us to your almighty lists.

Did I say anything about ranking entirely by eye test?

Your meltdown in this thread is not flattering.

 

[Daximus]

That's a strawman. Nobody has said you have to watch every game. But I'd expect you to have seen a reasonable sample size of his play before comparing him to other players (enough to provide a breakdown of his specific strengths and weaknesses, which you obviously have not been able to do).

I offered to do all 3 players I was comparing as I thought it would provide more context. All I'm seeing is a bunch of people trying to tear down my opinion in comparing them without comparing them themselves. But apparantly we can't use stats when doing so.

 

[Daximus]

Did I say anything about ranking entirely by eye test?

Your meltdown in this thread is not flattering.

Well we can't use stats apparantly so really there is only one other way to go about it according to you guys. We must watch every game they play and only then can we compare. Can't use stats though.

 

[Daximus]

That's a strawman. Nobody has said you have to watch every game. But I'd expect you to have seen a reasonable sample size of his play before comparing him to other players (enough to provide a breakdown of his specific strengths and weaknesses, which you obviously have not been able to do).

You're automatically assuming I've never seen him play. I've seen him play probably pretty close to the same I've seen Lindholm play. You won't see Ducks fans get ornery about me using stats to compare them. Obviously I've seen Trouba the most but you won't see me blow a gasket if you guys use stats to compare him to other players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well we can't use stats apparantly so really there is only one other way to go about it according to you guys. We must watch every game they play and only then can we compare. Can't use stats though.

Using raw point totals to evaluate a defensive defenseman? Using season-end TOI when a player's usage changed dramatically mid-season? Taking a PP-TOI average at face value without considering how it was accumulated in game situations?

You're right, those are all terrible ideas. I'm glad we found common ground in the end.

 

[JetsHomer]

Instead of just attacking the poster, how come none of you Canes fans have posted your opinion on why Slavin is better than Trouba? I'll wait

Not one of you has provided an argument beyond 'Lol Daximus used stats to prove his point? Clearly he's wrong because I say so'

 

[Daximus]

Using raw point totals to evaluate a defensive defenseman? Using season-end TOI when a player's usage changed dramatically mid-season? Taking a PP-TOI average at face value without considering how it was accumulated in game situations?

You're right, those are all terrible ideas. I'm glad we found common ground in the end.

Well how about we get into the meat of the stats then? [mod] I literally posted the stats to start a discussion and provided a breif comparison. Then you had come in and act all high and mighty about it like they are completely useless stats. Can we not use points and derivitive stats to compare a two way defencemen to a defensive defencemen? Or is that off limits because it doesn't help his case?