2004 vs 2005

[Crosbyfan]

You know, I've known a few people who were students of the game in the 50s, 60s, 70, 80s and 90s and they still had all the pain in the world comparing all the different players in all the different eras.

Of all time? Top fifteen?

What kind of top fifteen? How do you come to these conclusions? How did you collect the hockey data of all time? Is this worldwide as well? Like, all time, all places?

I've never been a fan of comparing different eras and different leagues for the reason that, despite having a pretty high confidence level, I do not feel I am up to the task nor have I have ever seen the most knowledgeable folks I have met and talked with agree on those things.

Given that posters at HF have all the trouble in the world coming up with a top 10 of, say, the best centers in the NHL right now, it will take some kickass fireworks to wow me and get me to take seriously claims that Crosby is top this as a 16 years old, Ovechkin a top that as a 17 years old and a top thingy as an 18 years old.

So yeah, I do think your claims had fuel to the fire but I also feel they are pretty much just words devoid of context. Not really demonstrable, not really refutable. Kind of like saying: God exists/God doesn't exist. What is there to say to this stuff? Not much, unless we want to enter a debate of futility.

I just don't think they can be compared very accurately, much less rated in an an ambitious all-encompassing historical context. But feel free to wow me

Thus the "arguably/ arguably not" which doesn't mean it's absolute, just that IMO you could reasonably make a case for either side.

I doubt I could convince you either way.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Arguably the best two players of all time but Orr was the closest to Sid at 16. You can make the argument Wayne and Mario were better at 16 as well, but if you use the names they made for themselves, or their play at 17 or 18 or later then you have no point. My point is that Wayne and Mario were clearly better than Ovechkin all compared at 18. Ovechkin may become the best player ever but unless he improves a lot in the next few months I wouldn't say he was one of the top ten 18 year olds ever. Right now he's arguably/arguably not one of the top 50.

Edit: Just to add fuel to the fire; Ovechkin was arguably/arguably not one of the top fifteen 17 year olds of all time!

I will argue for Crosby until the sun supernova's, but I can still admit he isn't a Wayne Gretzky at 16. Let's not forget that Wayne put up 36 points in the World Junior Championships as a 16 year old...

Don't get me wrong. Crosby and Ovechkin right now are about even according to many people. Crosby should clearly eclipse Ovechkin as he grows older. When he reaches the NHL, who knows. Neither of them are a Wayne Gretzky though.

 

[Preds666]

Let's not forget that Wayne put up 36 points in the World Junior Championships as a 16 year old...

Is that correct? I've always heard Forsberg has the record at 31 points in 7 games (92/93). A link would be appreciated. I've only found Gretzky's stats from 77/78 where he scored 17 points in the WJC.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Is that correct? I've always heard Forsberg has the record at 31 points in 7 games (92/93). A link would be appreciated. I've only found Gretzky's stats from 77/78 where he scored 17 points in the WJC.

That was Gretzky's only WJC. I thought he had 16 points, mostly in the preliminary round and Canada got the bronze. I think he was top forward and all-star.

 

[Preds666]

well, then why did you post that he scored 36 points? That was, why I asked, but I guess now that it was just a mistake from your part

 

[Epsilon]

well, then why did you post that he scored 36 points? That was, why I asked, but I guess now that it was just a mistake from your part

Someone else posted that.

 

[Preds666]

Someone else posted that.

haha, oops I see that now

 

[Crosbyfan]

haha, oops I see that now

Either way, since they (Sid and Wayne) are half a year "out of phase" birthday wise it's harder to compare. If they held a summertime WJC U20 with the cut off date July 1 you could compare more closely but we could still argue about eras. It would be interesting to see where Sid fit into the Canadian line-up as the guys who won the spots in the top two lines would still be eligible.

Gretzky had a phenomenal WJC back then but people said he was much too skinny and frail to ever dominate like Howe or Orr. Most hockey fans had not heard of him at that time although it was pre-internet. I think Orr was much better known at 16 1/2 than Gretzky at 16 1/2 (even though it was a decade and a half later media wise) although someone from Ontario may have a different perspective.

Most of the above is idle speculation (some would say "idol" speculation) and not to be confused with any "professional opinion". That being said I'll state that Orr was arguably the best 15 year old of all time and that Howe was the best 46 year old player of all time (note the lack of "arguably" on the last one but it's just my opinion)

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Is that correct? I've always heard Forsberg has the record at 31 points in 7 games (92/93). A link would be appreciated. I've only found Gretzky's stats from 77/78 where he scored 17 points in the WJC.

Hmmm, I tohught it was on the Ultimate Gretzky DVD. I'll watch it again and try and confirm..

 

[Epsilon]

Hmmm, I tohught it was on the Ultimate Gretzky DVD. I'll watch it again and try and confirm..

From TSN.ca's WJC section: http://www.tsn.ca/World_jrs/feature.asp?fid=1188

MOST GOALS SCORED BY AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER

13 - Markus Naslund, SWE. 1993 in Sweden
12 - Vladimir Ruzicka, CZE, 1983 in Leningrad
12 - Pavel Bure, USSR, 1991 in Canada

MOST ASSISTS BY AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER

24 - Peter Forsberg, SWE, 1993 in Sweden
14 - Esa Kesinen, FIN, 1985 in Finland
14 - Doug Weight, USA, 1991 in Canada
13 - Raimo Helminen, FIN, 1984 in Sweden
13 - Jaromir Jagr, CZE, 1990 in Finland

MOST POINTS SCORED BY AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER

31 - Peter Forsberg, SWE (7 + 24), 1993 in Sweden
24 - Raimo Helminen, FIN (11 + 13), 1984 in Sweden
24 - Markus Naslund, SWE (13 + 11), 1993 in Sweden
21 - Robert Reichel, CZE (11 + 10), 1990 in Finland
20 - Vladimir Ruzicka, CZE (12 + 8), 1983 in Leningrad

MOST CANADIAN POINTS, SINGLE TOURNAMENT

18 - Dale McCourt (10 goals, 8 assists), 1977
17 - Eric Lindros (6 - 11), 1991; Wayne Gretzky (8 - 9), 1978
16 - John Anderson (11 - 5), 1977
15 - Marty Murray (6 - 9), 1995; Jason Allison (3 - 12), 1995
14 - Brian Bradley (9 - 5), 1985; Shayne Corson (7 - 7), 1986; Mike Moller (5 - 9), 1982; Joe Murphy (4 - 10), 1986

There are a bunch of other records there too.

 

[Panopticon]

I think Teemu Laakso is better than those two. Teemu Laakso was best d-man U-18 championship and he was injured there. I´am sure that he goes TOP5 2005 draft.

I don't know about Top5. Before the U18s he was ranked at 62nd. I think he's easily the best defensive prospect in years, though, and he should be drafted much higher than he was ranked (and I think his ranking is better now, but I don't have any official info on that).

Only thing that worries me is his injuries. The guy already has knee problems, back problems and ankle problems even though he's only 16. Plus the latest groin/thigh injury. And it's also "too bad" that he plays for HIFK, with a smaller team he would probably already have some SM-liiga experience. Then again, he probably wouldn't have made so much progress playing in a smaller team. He had a surprisingly big role in his team last season. Especially all the PP/SH time he got really surprised me.

I'm sure that if he gets to play at the next U20s, he's going to be a sure first round pick in 2005. Or if he dominates the U18s. Or especially if he does both.