20-21 Season Tank Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

[theguardianII]

Definitely need a tank thread to blow off steam and not fill every other thread.

Canucks are bottom 3, there's absolutely no reason why we cant have a thread on this disaster of a season.

High draft pick, new management.

Try that on the Van forum, Debb will have you banned in an instant

 

[Fatass]

Demko is our future and needs a run of starts or will never develop into our #1.

Next year is already a write off and Holtby's contract will be up. Trade him, expose him or drop him.

Imo Holtby gives us the better chance to lose, and get a higher puck though. Still play Demko, but get Holtby in there an even amount.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Edler’s replacement is Rathbone obviously. How many times have we seen Hughes, Juolevi, Rathbone listed like they’re all special recently? A lot I’d say.

Hughes-Schmidt
Juolevi-Myers
Rathbone-*****

People expect that next year and they expect it to not be horrible.

I don’t see it.

This is one of the reasons why I think there is about a 2-year window to do a very aggressive rebuild here. We need to trade Miller and possibly Horvat and focus on getting as many high draft picks and top prospects as possible. AVOID rotten contracts (will require a new GM because the current one has proven to be incapable of avoiding bad contracts), and build for 2-3 years out from now.

The Canucks should be ramping up to be able to use Myers's cap space when his contract is up to add the final key piece to make a serious run. The core group: Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Boeser should remain. I don't know that Hoglander is necessarily a core player; however, I see no reason to move him either. Build around this group.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Again, the Canucks have been operating without, amongst many other executives positions, a President for the past several years.

All future. more junior appointees depend on the appointment of a new president and this includes the GM position.

Also whether Benning stays or goes would normally be the President's decision.

FA stated this appoint was going to made over a year ago.

The fact that this has not happened is either:

FA likes playing this role of President of Hockey Ops

and/or

no competent person would want the job of president in the absence of autonomy and FA is refusing to allow this.

and/or

FA is waiting for a very specific person who is not available at the moment.

Nightmare all around.

 

[4Twenty]

I’m definitely not a true tanker like the rest of you. Wanting to continue to suck for 2-3 more years is not appealing to me in the slightest.

It certainly won’t keep Pettersson and Hughes here and interested in leaving money on the table so the franchise can continue to tank.

Not trying to be a playoff team next year will be a failure. The chase for the ideal amount of top picks to go for it isn’t realistic. Tampa has been the cream of the league for a decade. They have one cup. There’s no guarantee that the ideal actually wins.

Of course getting Power, Wright, Bedard sounds amazing but it’s not realistic. Improve the process. Making winning the mentality. Strive for excellence top to bottom.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

It is sad sometimes when fans just can't wrap their heads around the concept of where star players come from or how those teams got them.
Educated fans will support the idea of trying to get the best players through the draft.
The lower in the standings the better players available through every round of the draft.
Gillis quite often had 28th+ picks 1rst round and 56th 2nd
Benning has had 4th to 26th and more of them with 2nd round being almost the same as Gillis's 1rst rnd selections
Benning's 2nd - #34 vs Gillis's 1rst - 28th.

That said the NHL is changing the odds again to help lower teams get better chances at the top 3 players.
It is not just the 1rst round, it is all the rounds.
Now that makes these picks higher valued assets in any trade getting better players in return.

Benning handcuffing the team through cap management has left it with no option but to "see what is in the pipeline" or "they are dumping salary"

I know nobody even likes to see a player named sometimes but IMO a huge player asset to trade is Hughes.
Here is why I think it
He is really, really small for defence making board battles and in front of the net almost a loss every time. Defence is in the DZone. He has to be able to defend.
Sure he is a fan favourite because he has been touted Vancouver's greatest and gets on the score sheet.
But for every point he gets the other team is scoring almost 2 points while he is on the ice. That is a negative. Anyone but him in his position would be crucified by the fans.
In the playoffs he got eaten alive, other dmen in his class year and the next surpassed him.

Horvat has to be getting used to losing, that can happen, 8 years.
Boeser's next contract handcuffs the team again so he should be a candidate as well.

Both of those players will get instant returns of the 2 to 1 type. Player/prospect and pick

Sutter and Pearson, their contracts are up, if necessary retention with Sutter, picks would be best to use for the expansion draft.

Holtby if another backup goalie under contract comes back with a pick
I think Eriksson can be bought out AFTER his bonus is paid, still a 4 mil cap for one year but a salary savings overall.
Benn should get a pick.

If enough trades are made there might be enough cap space for the remainder of the year to take on an expiring contract from a team needing cap space to make a trade, an extra draft pick, 2nd rnd minimum.

This team is so handcuffed the repair and improvement will take one more season after this. The 2022/2023 year should be the year this team hammers the playoffs.

So are you suggesting trading everybody except for Petterson/Miller/Demko? Would be a very long road back to competitiveness if you have to find a 1RW, a whole 2nd line, a whole 3rd line, a whole first pairing D, at least 1 2nd pairing D, etc. This would basically be a full tear down rebuild.
IMO its way too early to think about trading Hughes. He is barely in his 20s, plays a position that takes YEARS to refine. He has sky high potential still. Even if you believe his defensive game will never get better, he is still a 60+ points player from the backend, he can still help you win if you give him a competent D partner. What can you get by trading him? Picks/prospects that you hope will one day be an impact player like Hughes? Or lesser NHL players?
I wasn't Boeser's biggest fan the last couple seasons but this year he had been impressive so far. He is a solid 1RW and is worth keeping with Petterson.
We need to keep Horvat as we have absolutely nothing coming up the pipeline on C.
If you end up trading Hughes, Boeser and Horvat, you might as well trade Petterson too because that full tear down is only going to be wasting EP's prime.

 

[4Twenty]

This is clearly wrong:

In between the parameters of your 700k-1.75 mil there’s possibly on simmonds that’s a second liner and idk how much that was an opportunity to boost himself than anything.

3rd/4th liners of course can be found in that range as most of have said for the last 7 years but second liners is not likely.

2020 NHL Free Agents Tracker

Haula $1.75m
Anthanasiou $1.2m
Duclair $1.7m
Kahun $975k
Soderberg $1m
Wallmark $950k
Verhaege $1m


If Pearson and 2 points in 15 Hoglander are second liners these guys are close.

2/3 Tweeners can be found in UFA.

I also but an unreasonable cap on it. Go to $2.75m and see the quality you’ll be able to sign.

Look at what Florida did this offseason. That’s what I’m talking about. Smart managers can fill out their rosters in FA cheap.

 

[xtra]

Haula $1.75m
Anthanasiou $1.2m
Duclair $1.7m
Kahun $975k
Soderberg $1m
Wallmark $950k
Verhaege $1m


If Pearson and 2 points in 15 Hoglander are second liners these guys are close.

2/3 Tweeners can be found in UFA.

I also but an unreasonable cap on it. Go to $2.75m and see the quality you’ll be able to sign.

2 points:

1: I shouldn’t have taken the 1.75 as litreal as you are correct bargains can be found so I stand corrected. At the 2.75 range you can do that easily also.

2: hoglander and Pearson aren’t nhl 2nd liners in anyone but jimbos mind

 

[4Twenty]

2 points:

1: I shouldn’t have taken the 1.75 as litreal as you are correct bargains can be found so I stand corrected. At the 2.75 range you can do that easily also.

2: hoglander and Pearson aren’t nhl 2nd liners in anyone but jimbos mind

Fair.

I just think with some Bill Zito like management the Canucks could backfill the 23 with quality veterans next year. Getting rid of contracts will be tough but we need somebody else pulling the strings.

The tank for me is about new management. Not asset accumulation.

 

[theguardianII]

So are you suggesting trading everybody except for Petterson/Miller/Demko? Would be a very long road back to competitiveness if you have to find a 1RW, a whole 2nd line, a whole 3rd line, a whole first pairing D, at least 1 2nd pairing D, etc. This would basically be a full tear down rebuild.
IMO its way too early to think about trading Hughes. He is barely in his 20s, plays a position that takes YEARS to refine. He has sky high potential still. Even if you believe his defensive game will never get better, he is still a 60+ points player from the backend, he can still help you win if you give him a competent D partner. What can you get by trading him? Picks/prospects that you hope will one day be an impact player like Hughes? Or lesser NHL players?
I wasn't Boeser's biggest fan the last couple seasons but this year he had been impressive so far. He is a solid 1RW and is worth keeping with Petterson.
We need to keep Horvat as we have absolutely nothing coming up the pipeline on C.
If you end up trading Hughes, Boeser and Horvat, you might as well trade Petterson too because that full tear down is only going to be wasting EP's prime.

You would not be able to "just" trade away all the players.
What I am saying though is having a plan.
Examine the teams in the league.
Some will have issues, fans, play or money.

I like using Buffalo because their problem is a little of everything including playing in a harsh division.
There are players on that team that I covet.
Arizona has money issues and a player or two.
Tampa will have to make a deal due to cap issues.
Maybe StLouis.

At any rate with the exception of Demko and Pettersson I would see what the offers might be.

Putting Horvat in this group is more along the lines of rewarding him for his loyalty in 8 years or more losing, I always felt bad for Nash, a great player stuck on that team, used up his good years.

IMO it is the plan that dictates who gets traded, and not "just" traded for the sake of a trade.
But all the expiring contract deals should be dealt, the team is still in the bottom third of the league.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You would not be able to "just" trade away all the players.
What I am saying though is having a plan.
Examine the teams in the league.
Some will have issues, fans, play or money.

I like using Buffalo because their problem is a little of everything including playing in a harsh division.
There are players on that team that I covet.
Arizona has money issues and a player or two.
Tampa will have to make a deal due to cap issues.
Maybe StLouis.

At any rate with the exception of Demko and Pettersson I would see what the offers might be.

Putting Horvat in this group is more along the lines of rewarding him for his loyalty in 8 years or more losing, I always felt bad for Nash, a great player stuck on that team, used up his good years.

IMO it is the plan that dictates who gets traded, and not "just" traded for the sake of a trade.
But all the expiring contract deals should be dealt, the team is still in the bottom third of the league.

I agree, as long as there is a plan, then I'm on board. I don't really see any scenario where the organization comes out ahead if we take the path of trading Hughes or Horvat, but it doesn't hurt to listen to offers.
All expiring contracts should be moved for picks (however low) or prospects (however long shot). Freeing up cap space is priority #1 for next season. (Well getting a new management team is priority #1 but at this point I'm guessing that goes without saying).

 

[y2kcanucks]

I’m definitely not a true tanker like the rest of you. Wanting to continue to suck for 2-3 more years is not appealing to me in the slightest.

It certainly won’t keep Pettersson and Hughes here and interested in leaving money on the table so the franchise can continue to tank.

Not trying to be a playoff team next year will be a failure. The chase for the ideal amount of top picks to go for it isn’t realistic. Tampa has been the cream of the league for a decade. They have one cup. There’s no guarantee that the ideal actually wins.

Of course getting Power, Wright, Bedard sounds amazing but it’s not realistic. Improve the process. Making winning the mentality. Strive for excellence top to bottom.

You can't just try to be a playoff team next year and will it into existence. There are still too many crappy contracts on the books next year that, coupled with the contracts that we will need to sign Pettersson, Hughes, and even Demko to, there isn't any room to improve the team. The 22-23 season is probably the earliest we could expect to have an upswing, but even then we'll have $9.5M committed to Myers and Ferland. Ferland likely will be on LTIR so it's only $6M of wasted cap space during the season, but that's still a big hit. We need to avoid adding anymore bad contracts, while probably waiting these ones out because you're not going to be able to dump them without adding sweeteners. And because this idiot GM didn't bother with a proper rebuild we lack good young prospects coming up that we could use as sweeteners, or as cheap valuable players.

Both Pettersson and Hughes should be locked up to long-term 8-year contracts, and we should be aiming for year 2 or 3 of those contracts for our upswing.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Fair.

I just think with some Bill Zito like management the Canucks could backfill the 23 with quality veterans next year. Getting rid of contracts will be tough but we need somebody else pulling the strings.

The tank for me is about new management. Not asset accumulation.

For me the primary goal is new management, but it's clear if we want a true cup contender here we also need to improve the asset accumulation side. I'm not satisfied with a mediocre team that just makes the playoffs. Even though Tampa has only won 1 Cup with this core, they have still been an elite team that has a legitimate shot year after year. That's the team I want. Not a mediocre team that you hope might go on a run if things line up perfectly.

And aggressive, 1-2 year rebuild is needed beginning this offseason.

 

[I am toxic]

I’m definitely not a true tanker like the rest of you. Wanting to continue to suck for 2-3 more years is not appealing to me in the slightest.

It certainly won’t keep Pettersson and Hughes here and interested in leaving money on the table so the franchise can continue to tank.

Not trying to be a playoff team next year will be a failure. The chase for the ideal amount of top picks to go for it isn’t realistic. Tampa has been the cream of the league for a decade. They have one cup. There’s no guarantee that the ideal actually wins.

Of course getting Power, Wright, Bedard sounds amazing but it’s not realistic. Improve the process. Making winning the mentality. Strive for excellence top to bottom.

Yeah, the tank has to stop sometime in the next year or so. The question is when . . .

 

[Dab]

You can't just try to be a playoff team next year and will it into existence. There are still too many crappy contracts on the books next year that, coupled with the contracts that we will need to sign Pettersson, Hughes, and even Demko to, there isn't any room to improve the team. The 22-23 season is probably the earliest we could expect to have an upswing, but even then we'll have $9.5M committed to Myers and Ferland. Ferland likely will be on LTIR so it's only $6M of wasted cap space during the season, but that's still a big hit. We need to avoid adding anymore bad contracts, while probably waiting these ones out because you're not going to be able to dump them without adding sweeteners. And because this idiot GM didn't bother with a proper rebuild we lack good young prospects coming up that we could use as sweeteners, or as cheap valuable players.

Both Pettersson and Hughes should be locked up to long-term 8-year contracts, and we should be aiming for year 2 or 3 of those contracts for our upswing.

I agree next year looks like a write-off and that given we are a losing team for another couple years we need to sign Ep40 and Hughes long term. That said that will cost a fortune, with EP40s slow start and Hughes defensive woes its more risky to sign them long term. Not a great spot to be in.

 

[4Twenty]

You can't just try to be a playoff team next year and will it into existence. There are still too many crappy contracts on the books next year that, coupled with the contracts that we will need to sign Pettersson, Hughes, and even Demko to, there isn't any room to improve the team. The 22-23 season is probably the earliest we could expect to have an upswing, but even then we'll have $9.5M committed to Myers and Ferland. Ferland likely will be on LTIR so it's only $6M of wasted cap space during the season, but that's still a big hit. We need to avoid adding anymore bad contracts, while probably waiting these ones out because you're not going to be able to dump them without adding sweeteners. And because this idiot GM didn't bother with a proper rebuild we lack good young prospects coming up that we could use as sweeteners, or as cheap valuable players.

Both Pettersson and Hughes should be locked up to long-term 8-year contracts, and we should be aiming for year 2 or 3 of those contracts for our upswing.

Neither will want 8 year deals at low cap hits especially to tank. 8 year deals went out the window when the team started poorly and got rid of key pieces. I don’t think the mifs have faith right now. They still look shellshocked from the departures.

Ferland isn’t an issue with LTIR.

Ive accepted Myers will be a bad contract.

It’s not about willing it into existence it’s about proactively doing it.

Pettersson and Hughes are unlikely to sign until they see what happens with the team and with their peers in the league.

I guess I’m just not a true tanker. Tanking next season has zero appeal to me.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I agree next year looks like a write-off and that given we are a losing team for another couple years we need to sign Ep40 and Hughes long term. That said that will cost a fortune, with EP40s slow start and Hughes defensive woes its more risky to sign them long term. Not a great spot to be in.

They're the type of players you commit to long-term though. I don't think there's a lot of risk there during their 20's. Hughes could have a Karlsson-like curve where once he turns 30 his utility drops off significantly, but for the duration of an 8-year deal I wouldn't be worried about either. Lock them up, get cost certainty with your top stars and use that as the scale for the rest of the team.

 

[December5th]

For me the primary goal is new management, but it's clear if we want a true cup contender here we also need to improve the asset accumulation side. I'm not satisfied with a mediocre team that just makes the playoffs. Even though Tampa has only won 1 Cup with this core, they have still been an elite team that has a legitimate shot year after year. That's the team I want. Not a mediocre team that you hope might go on a run if things line up perfectly.

And aggressive, 1-2 year rebuild is needed beginning this offseason.

the sad thing is if we had markstrom still we would of stole a lot of games this year again and everyone would still be team benning. maybe get lucky in the first round maybe not but then the excuse will be the core is young, this is good experience. finially this year has exposed benning as a poopy gm

 

[y2kcanucks]

Neither will want 8 year deals at low cap hits especially to tank. 8 year deals went out the window when the team started poorly and got rid of key pieces. I don’t think the mifs have faith right now. They still look shellshocked from the departures.

Ferland isn’t an issue with LTIR.

Ive accepted Myers will be a bad contract.

It’s not about willing it into existence it’s about proactively doing it.

Pettersson and Hughes are unlikely to sign until they see what happens with the team and with their peers in the league.

I guess I’m just not a true tanker. Tanking next season has zero appeal to me.

I can't say either way what they would want. I think it's always possible to lock up a player longterm if the cap hit makes sense. If you can get both locked up for $9M per year for a full 8-year term then it makes sense to do it. If they're not at all interested in long-term contracts then that obviously isn't an option.

Ferland is an issue in the off-season as you can only exceed the cap by a certain percentage. But as long as he remains on LTIR going into next season it isn't a big issue. Just some creativity required at the start of the season.

Myers IS a bad contract, not will be. That $6M still hurts though, and it isn't a matter of accepting it or not. It is a barrier preventing the team from improving. That goes against the desire to become a solid team.

I would rather focus next season on selling off assets that will not be part of our upswing, than to keep them here, depreciate their value, miss the playoffs anyway and end up with a mediocre pick. There is zero appeal in that to me whatsoever.

 

[I am toxic]

You can't just try to be a playoff team next year and will it into existence. There are still too many crappy contracts on the books next year that, coupled with the contracts that we will need to sign Pettersson, Hughes, and even Demko to, there isn't any room to improve the team. The 22-23 season is probably the earliest we could expect to have an upswing, but even then we'll have $9.5M committed to Myers and Ferland. Ferland likely will be on LTIR so it's only $6M of wasted cap space during the season, but that's still a big hit. We need to avoid adding anymore bad contracts, while probably waiting these ones out because you're not going to be able to dump them without adding sweeteners. And because this idiot GM didn't bother with a proper rebuild we lack good young prospects coming up that we could use as sweeteners, or as cheap valuable players.

Both Pettersson and Hughes should be locked up to long-term 8-year contracts, and we should be aiming for year 2 or 3 of those contracts for our upswing.

Exactly.

On a minor point, if Podz is released early from his contract by his KHL club, we should not be burning a year of his ELC this year - like we did with Boeser and Hughes to divert fan attention to save Benning's/Weisbrod's sorry ass job.

 

[y2kcanucks]

the sad thing is if we had markstrom still we would of stole a lot of games this year again and everyone would still be team benning. maybe get lucky in the first round maybe not but then the excuse will be the core is young, this is good experience. finially this year has exposed benning as a poopy gm

Yeah, absolutely. Markstrom masked a lot of problems this team had for years. Those of us who pay attention to the analytics knew this team wasn't very good so none of this is a surprise to us. But it's funny to look back at some tweets from December where a certain eye doctor said the league isn't ready for this team, and was predicting the Canucks to easily finish top 2 in the division.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Exactly.

On a minor point, if Podz is released early from his contract by his KHL club, we should not be burning a year of his ELC this year - like we did with Boeser and Hughes to divert fan attention to save Benning's/Weisbrod's sorry ass job.

Agreed, to an extent. If the intent is to divert fan attention away from management then that's a piss poor reason to do so. However, I would be curious to see what this would do to his RFA status. If he fits into the same category as Quinn Hughes where he will not be eligible for an offer sheet at the expiration of his ELC then it's something to consider. Especially if our upswing isn't going to be until after he becomes a RFA anyway, there isn't going to be an ELC benefit there. However, if Podkolzin would be a Group 2, 10.2(c) RFA, then you retain his rights without him having arbitration rights or the threat of an offer sheet...the only threat being he could return to Russia, it could work out to our benefit and help suppress his next contract AAV.

This is also not the kind of forward-thinking that the Canucks have shown they are capable of under the Benning regime though. So I am confident there will be zero discussion about this.

 

[I am toxic]

Neither will want 8 year deals at low cap hits especially to tank. 8 year deals went out the window when the team started poorly and got rid of key pieces. I don’t think the mifs have faith right now. They still look shellshocked from the departures.

Ferland isn’t an issue with LTIR.

Ive accepted Myers will be a bad contract.

It’s not about willing it into existence it’s about proactively doing it.

Pettersson and Hughes are unlikely to sign until they see what happens with the team and with their peers in the league.

I guess I’m just not a true tanker. Tanking next season has zero appeal to me.

We have Loui and Myers next season along with the Luongo recapture. $15M with Myers worth maybe $2M. Potentially we have Beagle and Roussel still around. Another $6M.

We either tank intentionally next season and come out better going forward, or we tank unintentionally and come out not so good.

If those players could be moved . . . well . . .

looking at you @RandV

 

[I am toxic]

Agreed, to an extent. If the intent is to divert fan attention away from management then that's a piss poor reason to do so. However, I would be curious to see what this would do to his RFA status. If he fits into the same category as Quinn Hughes where he will not be eligible for an offer sheet at the expiration of his ELC then it's something to consider. Especially if our upswing isn't going to be until after he becomes a RFA anyway, there isn't going to be an ELC benefit there. However, if Podkolzin would be a Group 2, 10.2(c) RFA, then you retain his rights without him having arbitration rights or the threat of an offer sheet...the only threat being he could return to Russia, it could work out to our benefit and help suppress his next contract AAV.

This is also not the kind of forward-thinking that the Canucks have shown they are capable of under the Benning regime though. So I am confident there will be zero discussion about this.

Well said, but . . .

 

[y2kcanucks]

We have Loui and Myers next season along with the Luongo recapture. $15M with Myers worth maybe $2M. Potentially we have Beagle and Roussel still around. Another $6M.

We either tank intentionally next season and come out better going forward, or we tank unintentionally and come out not so good.

If those players could be moved . . . well . . .

looking at you @RandV

Don't forget Holtby. A lot of people for some reason think Seattle will take him but I don't see it. I could easily see them going with someone like Fleury or Lehner as their starter, and won't want a $4.3M backup.

Demko might be able to be re-signed cheaper than he should given what his counting stats look like this year. But I would almost rather add a bit more and try to get him locked up to a 4-year term. If you can go to $3 or $3.5M per on a 4-year term that could prove to be very valuable towards the back end of that deal.