Post-Game Talk: 1st place hockey

tardigrade81

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Jun 12, 2019
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I would approve of Price, no question and you know that. The thing for me with Hall is that in this league you can’t come ‘home’. I’m not sure it ever really works. I honestly can’t think of an example where a guy leaves, comes back, and outdoes what he previously accomplished or even meets expectations. Messier went back to New York, we got Anderson and Lowe back, in no scenario was it a success. I’d be curious if someone could point out a scenario where it was actually worthwhile for a retread... Anyone?
Well said! I don’t think I have seen it in the NHL or at least not drastic enough for me to remember. It rarely happens in any sport actually. The only one that comes to mind is Lebron returning to Cleveland and winning a championship , but comparing Hall to Lebron is just silly. At this point I think we are absolutely fine offensively. The trouble is people jump all over the map when this team has an ugly stretch. Bruins fans are doing it now, Lightning’s fans did it earlier this year. It’s natural. Right now we are playing very good hockey, hopefully it continues.
 
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Duke74

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
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I think it's getting blown out of proportion. He has been on garbage teams his whole career.



Woodguy is an idiot. I put zero stock into his tweets. He used an infinitesimally small sample size to illustrate that Archibald has the best fancy stats with McDavid, thus violating the analytic nerds' rule against small sample sizes. Plus he wanted to trade Nurse and Draisaitl for Ekman-Larsson on the basis of his stupid analytics crap.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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Ok so how does them failing become Hall's fault?

I think they were 8-4-2 after hall left (and were 0-5 with hall after the coaching change)... their best stretch in a year or 2 at least. Fans are saying the team looks better without hall and the young guys are starting to flourish with his absence. Sounds like the room is happier too.

Point is, for sure in Etown hall was a coach killer. He wanted no part in playing a responsible team game and wanted to do his own s***. Teams can't function that way with one of their better players acting that way. It crumbles team culture. No doubt, at least in etown, he played a big part in the failures of the team with his attitude and immaturity.
 
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Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
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Woodguy is an idiot. I put zero stock into his tweets. He used an infinitesimally small sample size to illustrate that Archibald has the best fancy stats with McDavid, thus violating the analytic nerds' rule against small sample sizes. Plus he wanted to trade Nurse and Draisaitl for Ekman-Larsson on the basis of his stupid analytics crap.
I don't follow him but the data he uses in this post shouldn't really be arguable. It's just 5 on 5 metrics.
 

Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
20,184
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I think they were 8-4-2 after hall left (and were 0-5 with hall after the coaching change)... their best stretch in a year or 2 at least. Fans are saying the team looks better without hall and the young guys are starting to flourish with his absence. Sounds like the room is happier too.

Point is, for sure in Etown hall was a coach killer. He wanted no part in playing a responsible team game and wanted to do his own s***. Teams can't function that way with one of their better players acting that way. It crumbles team culture. No doubt, at least in etown, he played a big part in the failures of the team with his attitude and immaturity.
Why would he buy in when it's guaranteed to be a loss if he doesn't provide offense? He knows how to win. He won back to back Memorial Cups as MVP.

If he has matured I'd consider signing him (depending on the price).
 
Oct 15, 2008
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I think they were 8-4-2 after hall left (and were 0-5 with hall after the coaching change)... their best stretch in a year or 2 at least. Fans are saying the team looks better without hall and the young guys are starting to flourish with his absence. Sounds like the room is happier too.

Point is, for sure in Etown hall was a coach killer. He wanted no part in playing a responsible team game and wanted to do his own s***. Teams can't function that way with one of their better players acting that way. It crumbles team culture. No doubt, at least in etown, he played a big part in the failures of the team with his attitude and immaturity.
I actually started to read this post, then I happened to glance at who posted it....

giphy.gif
 

McDNicks17

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Jul 1, 2010
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Woodguy is an idiot. I put zero stock into his tweets. He used an infinitesimally small sample size to illustrate that Archibald has the best fancy stats with McDavid, thus violating the analytic nerds' rule against small sample sizes. Plus he wanted to trade Nurse and Draisaitl for Ekman-Larsson on the basis of his stupid analytics crap.

He's one of the "advanced stats gurus" who very obviously comes to a conclusion and then shoehorns some stats into backing it up.
 

rboomercat90

Registered User
Mar 24, 2013
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Edmonton
You said he doesn’t do anything to make his team better. Hard to do more than win the league mvp. If that never happened you would have a cogent argument instead of a yabut.
Which player do you think he really is? Is he the guy that played with fire in his belly for one season and was successful or is he the guy he’s been all those other seasons? I think he’s really the guy he’s been in all those other seasons where something goes wrong and his team ends up having a very disappointing season.

To me that means he’s a complimentary player you have on a short term, reasonably priced deal. It’s not someone you gamble on and sign to a big money, long term contract. I’d do a year or two of Hall at $5 million a year, something that wouldn’t cripple you if it went south. I wouldn’t do anything else.
 
Oct 15, 2008
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Which player do you think he really is? Is he the guy that played with fire in his belly for one season and was successful or is he the guy he’s been all those other seasons? I think he’s really the guy he’s been in all those other seasons where something goes wrong and his team ends up having a very disappointing season.

To me that means he’s a complimentary player you have on a short term, reasonably priced deal. It’s not someone you gamble on and sign to a big money, long term contract. I’d do a year or two of Hall at $5 million a year, something that wouldn’t cripple you if it went south. I wouldn’t do anything else.

He won two memorial cups consecutively, of which he was the mvp in both I believe. And then we got our hands on him and.....then he got a reprieve and had yet another mvp season, this time in the best league in the world...I dont know, I think that a lot of blame for the misfortune of this team gets pointed in the wrong directions and its been that way since......when did Katz buy the team?
 

MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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Why would he buy in when it's guaranteed to be a loss if he doesn't provide offense? He knows how to win. He won back to back Memorial Cups as MVP.

If he has matured I'd consider signing him (depending on the price).

And THAT's the s*** attitude i'm talking about. Seems like many hall lovers have that same attitude. Self over team. "oh why should i buy in? What's the point". there's a good reason why todd mclellan reemed hall out on national tv and booted him to the end of the bench... the player just won't listen or buy in (heck hall said as much in an article).... this is NOT the guy you want on your team.

That's the fallicy too. "if he doesn't provide offence..guaranteed loss". load of crock. buy in, be a team player and lead by example instead of going out and doing whatever the heck you want on the ice and cheat and not play defence or be on the left wing board when you should be for an outlet pass from the dmen etc etc etc. it's time to listen to the ex-teammates that called him out (ference, scrivens, klefbom etc). maybe he's matured... heck i think he probably has but i'm not sold it's enough. We'll probably get a better indication if he starts bouncing around from team to team in the next few years.

and winning in jrs is way different than nhl... hall knows little about winning in the chel. you know who else won mvps in the memorial cup?.... Edgars Kulda, Tokarski, Kelly Guard, Danny Groulx, Kyle Wanvig, Chris Madden, Cameron Mann, Cristian Dube etc.
 

Tw0Shoes

Registered User
Mar 15, 2007
1,485
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I would approve of Price, no question and you know that. The thing for me with Hall is that in this league you can’t come ‘home’. I’m not sure it ever really works. I honestly can’t think of an example where a guy leaves, comes back, and outdoes what he previously accomplished or even meets expectations. Messier went back to New York, we got Anderson and Lowe back, in no scenario was it a success. I’d be curious if someone could point out a scenario where it was actually worthwhile for a retread... Anyone?

Mark Recchi.
 

Del Preston

Registered User
Mar 8, 2013
63,171
78,954
I would approve of Price, no question and you know that. The thing for me with Hall is that in this league you can’t come ‘home’. I’m not sure it ever really works. I honestly can’t think of an example where a guy leaves, comes back, and outdoes what he previously accomplished or even meets expectations. Messier went back to New York, we got Anderson and Lowe back, in no scenario was it a success. I’d be curious if someone could point out a scenario where it was actually worthwhile for a retread... Anyone?
David Perron is currently doing it with the Blues.
 
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Mc5RingsAndABeer

5-14-6-1
May 25, 2011
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And THAT's the s*** attitude i'm talking about. Seems like many hall lovers have that same attitude. Self over team. "oh why should i buy in? What's the point". there's a good reason why todd mclellan reemed hall out on national tv and booted him to the end of the bench... the player just won't listen or buy in (heck hall said as much in an article).... this is NOT the guy you want on your team.

That's the fallicy too. "if he doesn't provide offence..guaranteed loss". load of crock. buy in, be a team player and lead by example instead of going out and doing whatever the heck you want on the ice and cheat and not play defence or be on the left wing board when you should be for an outlet pass from the dmen etc etc etc. it's time to listen to the ex-teammates that called him out (ference, scrivens, klefbom etc). maybe he's matured... heck i think he probably has but i'm not sold it's enough. We'll probably get a better indication if he starts bouncing around from team to team in the next few years.

and winning in jrs is way different than nhl... hall knows little about winning in the chel. you know who else won mvps in the memorial cup?.... Edgars Kulda, Tokarski, Kelly Guard, Danny Groulx, Kyle Wanvig, Chris Madden, Cameron Mann, Cristian Dube etc.
I agree that it's a shitty attitude but it comes from a desire to win. McDavid and Draisaitl were criticized earlier this season for the same thing. I truly believe that he has been humbled by his time in the league and by getting overlooked for international play.

How many of those players were the best players on their teams for two seasons in a row?
 

Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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I think they were 8-4-2 after hall left (and were 0-5 with hall after the coaching change)... their best stretch in a year or 2 at least. Fans are saying the team looks better without hall and the young guys are starting to flourish with his absence. Sounds like the room is happier too.

Point is, for sure in Etown hall was a coach killer. He wanted no part in playing a responsible team game and wanted to do his own s***. Teams can't function that way with one of their better players acting that way. It crumbles team culture. No doubt, at least in etown, he played a big part in the failures of the team with his attitude and immaturity.
His coach in Edmonton was Dallas Eakins. Maybe Hall should get more credit...

In anycase where you been? We were all expecting you to write a bunch of negativity about hall for the past week. did you miss that Hall and Yotes (I'm poetic) played here last week. We're you "Out of touch" or did you "lost that loving feeling"
 
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Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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Woodguy is an idiot. I put zero stock into his tweets. He used an infinitesimally small sample size to illustrate that Archibald has the best fancy stats with McDavid, thus violating the analytic nerds' rule against small sample sizes. Plus he wanted to trade Nurse and Draisaitl for Ekman-Larsson on the basis of his stupid analytics crap.

The whole Woodguy blog spells out a basic misunderstanding of association vs causation. That's a foremost problem with hobby statistics and not understanding principles of science, statistics, or research.

It goes a lot farther than just small sample sizes, its not understanding analysis, classic faults, distortions, etc. @Dnicks brings up another in Confirmation Bias. You are not supposed to conclude results before your experiment is done. The Scientific process requires that you accept results that may not fit your hypothesis. The goal isn't (as in hockey analytics) to contort your stats until some of them start to resemble some kind of real world result.
 
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Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
45,289
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Duck hunting
Which player do you think he really is? Is he the guy that played with fire in his belly for one season and was successful or is he the guy he’s been all those other seasons? I think he’s really the guy he’s been in all those other seasons where something goes wrong and his team ends up having a very disappointing season.

To me that means he’s a complimentary player you have on a short term, reasonably priced deal. It’s not someone you gamble on and sign to a big money, long term contract. I’d do a year or two of Hall at $5 million a year, something that wouldn’t cripple you if it went south. I wouldn’t do anything else.

This is a bad take.

So to you Hall only had that fire one season?

I find that view remarkable. Because with respect to Taylor Hall (and before we had McD) he exemplified that one player in the lineup that you could take a kid or non hockey friend to a game and point out his standard dragster rushes up ice stretching D, using blazing speed to attack, skating like the wind. Blowing by D. Being a driver of reasonable offense almost all the time. I point this out because Hall's game, and his efforts were as consistent as anybody on the club. That he occasionally got detered by "learned helplessness" paradigm being on the worst run org in the league and sometimes realized he was busting his butt for no results based reason is just normal.

In any analysis of Halls career here ask yourself what seasons the team even had a chance of making the playoffs or having a successful season. Then consider that Hall's own results were quite good on a quite bad team.
 

Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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And THAT's the s*** attitude i'm talking about. Seems like many hall lovers have that same attitude. Self over team. "oh why should i buy in? What's the point". there's a good reason why todd mclellan reemed hall out on national tv and booted him to the end of the bench... the player just won't listen or buy in (heck hall said as much in an article).... this is NOT the guy you want on your team.

That's the fallicy too. "if he doesn't provide offence..guaranteed loss". load of crock. buy in, be a team player and lead by example instead of going out and doing whatever the heck you want on the ice and cheat and not play defence or be on the left wing board when you should be for an outlet pass from the dmen etc etc etc. it's time to listen to the ex-teammates that called him out (ference, scrivens, klefbom etc). maybe he's matured... heck i think he probably has but i'm not sold it's enough. We'll probably get a better indication if he starts bouncing around from team to team in the next few years.

and winning in jrs is way different than nhl... hall knows little about winning in the chel. you know who else won mvps in the memorial cup?.... Edgars Kulda, Tokarski, Kelly Guard, Danny Groulx, Kyle Wanvig, Chris Madden, Cameron Mann, Cristian Dube etc.
I don't see a citation for the bolded but in anycase this is the McLellan who also called out Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski in SJ and subsequently lost the bench, the playoffs, (first round) and lost his job soon enough after. A coach who came here and quipped the infamous "Draisaitl only skates for himself" poorly worded narrative which McLellan subsequently had to re-explain multiple times as it was never clear what he meant.

The reality is McLellan wasn't that great a coach anywhere, and a guy that was a useless sod of a player sure had no qualms in his mind of calling out players that are in a different world than him skill wise and that are much better players than McLellan is as a coach.

Indeed this is one of problems in pro sports (particularly NHL) that coaches are often doofuses hired by dumb orgs and hired on faulty basis because somebody thinks a certain approach might be good or is in vogue. So that it becomes a players regular plight to try to survive or endure dumb or incompetent coaches. My sympathy lies with top players that had to devote decades of their life to get as good as they are. In contrast a lot of very ordinary Ex players just fall into coaching for something to do, for a pay cheque and a continuance of hockey life. A lot of these guys are 7-8 D that barely ever got on the ice or Bottom of bottom forwards that barely knew what a puck was, they never saw it on their blade..
 

KlefDown

I adore Soli
May 2, 2014
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I'm actually glad we get a 2 weeks off from hockey
gives us fans a bit of a mental break too
 

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