1987-88: Who Should Have Won the Hart Trophy?

Nathaniel Skywalker

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Oct 18, 2013
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To be honest, 1988 was mostly because the Penguins were in the wrong division.
Yeah in another division they surely would have made it. It’s also not like the pens weren’t close. They missed by a point when you factor that + 168 points it makes sense Mario won. Even if Gretzky played 80 games and scored 186 points and Lemieux scored 174 points in 80 games I still think Lemieux would have deserved the hart. The oilers were a dynasty while the penguins were still flightless birds at the time
 

Troubadour

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Feb 23, 2018
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Anyone know the pens record prior to getting coffey that season?

I know you never asked for this, but I looked and saw and compared Lemieux pre-Coffey with the Paul-aboard Mario:

Until the Coffey trade:

HZoCvuf.jpg


After the Coffey trade:

EQh0RVL.jpg


And because the pre-trade sample is really puny and worthless, I've mainly included these stats to share the extraterrestrial S%.
 
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frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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Okay, so I revise my retrospective voting to this:
1. Mario Lemieux
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Ray Bourque
4. Steve Yzerman
5. Patrick Roy
I can't see Roy finishing this high. He was 8th in Vezina voting (behind Heyward). If you're unimpressed by Fuhr's relatively poor stats then Barrasso (6th in Hart voting, 2nd in Vezina) has to be the goalie that gets MVP consideration. Played 54 games and was dragged a team that was last overall the year before into the playoffs. He was fifth in save percentage and as you mentioned first in goals saved above average. That Sabre team featured Christian Ruuttu as the #1 C and had two 30-goal men in total. His play was the difference between another last overall finish and making the playoffs. Barrasso had a Vezina and two runner-up finishes by the time he was 22.

My Best-Carey
 

Ralph Spoilsport

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Jun 4, 2011
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The Penguins finished last in their division. Without Mario, they would have finished…laster. hehe

Actually, the Penguins were playoff-bound but just barely missed. The Devils went 8-0-1 down the stretch to squeek into the last spot (c.f. OP, Sean Burke), sweeping a home-and-home against the Pens in the final week. If Pittsburgh splits that series they're in. (NJ outscored Pit 11-2, Mr. MVP got 2 assists.)
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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The Penguins finished last in their division. Without Mario, they would have finished…laster. hehe

Actually, the Penguins were playoff-bound but just barely missed. The Devils went 8-0-1 down the stretch to squeek into the last spot (c.f. OP, Sean Burke), sweeping a home-and-home against the Pens in the final week. If Pittsburgh splits that series they're in. (NJ outscored Pit 11-2, Mr. MVP got 2 assists.)

i wonder if it was the person who threw sean burke a third place vote or the person who threw kirk muller a third place vote who didn't have mario on his ballot at all.
 

Midnight Judges

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JMO but people commingle team success and individual player value far more than the nature of hockey justifies.

The value needed to win is far more than one player can provide. That's part of what makes hockey great. No matter how great you are, you still need a strong supporting cast.

A player has little or no control over that (actually Lemieux did in his later years but that's an anomaly).

I think people are sometimes crediting and faulting players for the work of the GM. That is arbitrary criteria.

Lemieux was clearly the most valuable individual that season IMO.
 

FerrisRox

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Sep 17, 2003
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Mario Lemieux should have won the Hart Trophy and I think it's crazy to say that Grant Fuhr was average in the 1987 Canada Cup. To me, that was the best I ever saw him play. He was outstanding that series.
 

FerrisRox

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I struggle with this, but I think I would have voted like this (my winner being a guy who didn't get a single vote!):
1) Patrick Roy
2) Mario Lemieux
3) Wayne Gretzky
4) Ray Bourque
5) Steve Yzerman

Patrick Roy? That's crazy. Not only did he not get a single vote for Hart, he didn't receive a single first place vote for the Vezina either. In fact, he finished behind his platoon mate Brian Hayward in Vezina voting. Hayward was 4th, Roy was 8th.

I don't see any credible argument to have Roy anywhere near the Hart discussion that season and I say that as an enormous fan of Patrick Roy. 1988 was one of his more forgettable seasons.
 
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The Panther

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Patrick Roy? That's crazy. Not only did he not get a single vote for Hart, he didn't receive a single first place vote for the Vezina either. In fact, he finished behind his platoon mate Brian Hayward in Vezina voting. Hayward was 4th, Roy was 8th.
See post #20.
I don't see any credible argument to have Roy anywhere near the Hart discussion that season and I saw that as an enormous fan of Patrick Roy. 1988 was one of his more forgettable seasons.
How would you justify Fuhr having a bunch of Hart votes and Roy having none? I don't see it, personally. I mean, the Habs were 2nd overall and Roy had the best save-percentage in the League. Not really a "forgettable" season.
 

VanIslander

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I was in college at the time and EXPECTED Bourque (a couple of Hart runner-ups behind him) or Gretzky to win it.

I was impressed by Yzerman but thought Lemieux more deserving as an also ran.

30 years later I'm still a bit surprised. But there have been easily 6-8 less deserving Hart trophy winners since. It was a RICH class of candidates!

Note: voters are often influenced by the previous season's playoffs or international tourneys.

Mario's goal in the 1987 Canada Cup helped.

If this idea is NEW to you, you have a lot of hockey history to learn. (In other words, you can disagree with me about this, but my position is far from crazy.)
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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They got it right in 1988. Mario full well deserved it. Now, if Gretzky doesn't miss 16 games then his projections are sexier than the 149 points he got. He is on pace for 186 points. I think he likely wins the Hart with a full season because he was still the best player in the game. However, Fuhr did step up big time with Moog out of the lineup and Coffey gone. I don't think that can be ignored.

As for a non-playoff guy winning it, let's put it into context. In the last 60 years two players have won the Hart that missed the playoffs. Mario in 1988 and Bathgate in 1959. Both missed the playoffs by a single point and both on the last game of the season. That's pretty close. Iginla in 2002 is a guy that is brought up who some think should have won it but his team was 15 points out of the playoffs. By February they were more or less eliminated. McDavid last year too, he didn't deserve it. His team was not only out of the playoffs but not even competitive to get in.

So Mario is a good exception because he had the best season in the NHL, in the tightest and most competitive division, was on an above .500 team, missed the playoffs on the last game of the season and was in on 52.6% of his team's goals. That's a Hart season if there ever was one.
 

Big Phil

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Note: voters are often influenced by the previous season's playoffs or international tourneys.

Mario's goal in the 1987 Canada Cup helped.

I can think of a season where this may have helped too. Phil Esposito winning the Hart in 1974. Some might think Orr should have had it since there wasn't a huge difference in points (145-122) and Orr was better all around. But I think the 1973 playoffs when Esposito went down helped out a lot. The Bruins lost a quick first round without him and I think it showed just how important he was.

I don't know how much Mario's 1987 Canada Cup helps here, but either way he still would have been my pick and I don't think you can take anything away from his 1988 season.
 

VanIslander

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Big Phil, I wonder what you think of the fact that the NHLPA (player votes) never voted for Bobby Orr until his last full season. No Pearson/Lindsay trophy until his 9th year, AFTER seven Norris trophies and two Conn Smythes. There were several opportunities for him to win it, but he hadn't.

In 1988 Lemieux won the Pearson, but Yzerman won it the next season.
 

FerrisRox

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See post #20.

How would you justify Fuhr having a bunch of Hart votes and Roy having none? I don't see it, personally. I mean, the Habs were 2nd overall and Roy had the best save-percentage in the League. Not really a "forgettable" season.

I would justify Fuhr getting Hart votes and Roy getting none because Fuhr had a much better season than Roy who was barely a starting goaltender that year. Do you realize you have Roy as a Hart Trophy winner in the season he played the least games of his career (excluding the lockout shortened season?)

Roy played behind easily the best defensive team in the league while Fuhr backstopped a team with a much more porous blue line and a much more wide open style. He also played nearly twice as many games. The Vezina voters didn't even think Roy was the best goaltender in his tandem let alone in the league. His save percentage, in Pat Burns' system, is largely irrelevant.

As I said, I'm a huge fan of Patrick Roy, he's my all time favourite player, but 1988 was not a banner year for him. It was, as I said before, one of his more forgettable years and Brian Hayward encroached heavily on his starting job. Hayward's numbers were virtually identical to Roy's illustrating how much Burns' system aided the goaltending; yet you think Roy should win the Hart Trophy. Do you have Hayward as a nominee as well? If not, I'm curious how you justify that?
 
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The Panther

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I would justify Fuhr getting Hart votes and Roy getting none because Fuhr had a much better season that Roy who was barely a starting goaltender that year. Do you realize you have Roy as a Hart Trophy winner in the season he played the least games of his career (excluding the lockout shortened season?)

Roy played behind easily the best defensive team in the league while Fuhr backstopped a team with a much more porous blue line and a much more wide open style. He also played nearly twice as many games. The Vezina voters didn't even think Roy was the best goaltender in his tandem let alone in the league. His save percentage, in Pat Burns' system, is largely irrelevant.

As I said, I'm a huge fan of Patrick Roy, he's my all time favourite player, but 1988 was not a banner year for him. It was, as I said before, one of his more forgettable years and Brian Hayward encroached heavily on his starting job. Hayward's numbers were virtually identical to Roy's illustrating how much Burns' system aided the goaltending; yet you think Roy should win the Hart Trophy. Do you have Hayward as a nominee as well? If not, I'm curious how you justify that?
I don't have Roy as the Hart winner. As I said before, see post #20.
 

quoipourquoi

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Roy had a .907 in his first half and a .892 in his second half, so he cooled down a lot which likely cost him some positioning in some awards races. Going into January 1988, he had a .014 lead over 2nd place in save percentage among goaltenders with 20+ decisions.

Fuhr, 22-11-3 at the time, was obviously going to catch some attention, but at .890, he wasn’t necessarily better, and at the halfway point of the season, there’s probably a case for Patrick Roy as one of the league’s top players. That Fuhr kept playing games at the same rate while Roy’s numbers slipped probably explains the disparity in attention, while Roy at least deservingly took an All-Star selection.
 

MXD

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...Also, I guess Fuhr often had this thing called "leeway".
 

Thenameless

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Yeah, I guess Roy's 45 games doesn't look that impressive compared to Fuhr's sexier 75. But in those days a top goalie playing 45-50 games was the standard. (I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Hayward's and Roy's records looking similar. I am guessing Hayward started a lot against weaker teams.)

As a Montreal fan, I wouldn't have given Roy a top 5 spot. You need to remember that in the mid to late 80's Montreal was a very strong team defensively kind of like New Jersey in the mid 90's onwards. Claude Lemieux, Chelios, Mike McPhee, Robinson, Gainey, Corson, Carbonneau, Skrudland, Ryan Walter, Craig Ludwig - these guys weren't so good at scoring, but they were very good defensively. Goalies love playing behind these kinds of guys.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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i can see the argument for fuhr. here's a guy who lost his career-long 1a (moog off with the olympic team waiting for a trade) and destroyed his own previous career high in games while setting the record for most games played in a single season by a goalie by 4 games, all this coming off three cup runs in four years. that is an amazing workload for an era where practically nobody even played 60 games, though that was soon to change. you could maybe credit '88 fuhr himself for paving the way in that respect, which also deserves kudos.

it's interesting: edmonton had by far the lowest GA in the smythe division, and second least in the campbell conference. but that number only would have been good for 7th (out of 11 teams) in the wales. meanwhile, quebec and buffalo were last in the adams, with 306 and 305 respectively, with a huge margin between them and hartford in 3rd place. only pittsburgh was lower in the wales. but 306 would have been 5th in the campbell, and 305 would have been tied with calgary for 4th. all to say, just looking at fuhr's per game stats in comparison to roy, hayward, barrasso, hrudey, etc isn't so useful. fuhr was 3rd in GAA in his own conference, behind two backups (from the norris) whose workload he more than doubled. he was 8th in SV% in the campbell, 2nd in the smythe division, a fraction behind daniel berthiaume. or put it this way, he destroyed the next best goalie in the smythe, presidents trophy-winner mike vernon, in every statistical category.

as for roy, what i remember foggily is that even as late as '89 there was still the general feeling among the old heads that he was a fluke and eventually everyone was going to figure out that you just had to shoot high on him. '88 was his second straight jennings, both shared in a platoon with hayward. hayward had better stats in '87 and they were basically even in '88. so it's understandable how skeptical GMs talked themselves into questioning whether roy could really be the best goalie in the world, despite his stats, especially considering that he played in the lowest scoring division behind the best defensive team. and then you add the fact that fuhr showed he didn't need moog to share the workload; patrick hadn't shown that he didn't need hayward yet. the 1989 season would make that undeniable though.

if you look at the discrepancy between roy's all-star record in '87 and '88 (4th and 2nd) and his vezina balloting (10th and 8th), it really feels like the opposite of cujo in the '90s, who was a vezina nominee three times but never finished higher than 4th in AST. the hockey establishment just wasn't having this butterfly thing yet.
 

L L

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I have always thought Lemieux won in 1988 as a celebration of someone finally challenging Gretzky for overall brilliance. 1989 was largely because a woeful team had suddenly become relevant because of Gretzky.

I think the voters got this one right. Without Lemieux, I don't see how the Penguins are in a playoff fight. Without Fuhr or Gretzky, the Oilers are still a powerful contender.
 

Big Phil

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Big Phil, I wonder what you think of the fact that the NHLPA (player votes) never voted for Bobby Orr until his last full season. No Pearson/Lindsay trophy until his 9th year, AFTER seven Norris trophies and two Conn Smythes. There were several opportunities for him to win it, but he hadn't.

In 1988 Lemieux won the Pearson, but Yzerman won it the next season.

A couple of things, the Pearson didn't show up until 1971. No doubt Orr wins that in 1970. Also, there were a couple of bad choices for it during Orr's career too. Esposito in 1971 I can see to an extent. While Orr had a record breaking season so did Esposito in goals and in points. 1972 Ratelle wins it. I know he had a great year and maybe the voter fatigue was weighing in on Orr. Either way it should have been Orr or Esposito winning this, probably Orr since he won the Hart. 1973 it all probably boils down to Orr missing 15 games. Clarke wins it. However, how was Esposito's season not better than Clarke's in 1973? The Hart I can see, but the Pearson? 1974 Esposito wins both. Easily this could have gone to Orr but Esposito had a stellar year and I think a lot of it boiled down to him being out in the 1973 playoffs and the Bruins just folding when it happened. It made people realize Esposito was pretty important. Plus 145 points is still insane. 1975 they got it right with Orr and I don't care if Clarke's Flyers were the best team in the league or if Rogie Vachon took a bad Kings team to 105 points, if a defenseman wins the Art Ross and his team is 5th overall in points, you give it to him. That was the Hart for 1975, but at least Orr captured the Pearson.

Like I said, much of it boils down to voter fatigue.
 

Big Phil

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I have always thought Lemieux won in 1988 as a celebration of someone finally challenging Gretzky for overall brilliance. 1989 was largely because a woeful team had suddenly become relevant because of Gretzky.

I think the voters got this one right. Without Lemieux, I don't see how the Penguins are in a playoff fight. Without Fuhr or Gretzky, the Oilers are still a powerful contender.

Correct. I don't see the fuss with Lemieux winning in 1988. If anything him not winning in 1989 is a knock, and on top of it not winning the Pearson? Come on. At least with the Hart you can understand because Gretzky had a great season too and the storylines of leading L.A. was hard to pass up. But Yzerman over Lemieux in the Pearson? This is why I always like the Hart better than the Pearson, there are always biases either with players or with writers but at least the writers' jobs are based on following the NHL all year where as a player is focused on this as much.

I know Fuhr gets some flack for being 2nd in 1988. I like it, along with the Vezina. Here is why. Take yourself back to that time. Moog leaves the team the year before and prior to that he and Fuhr more or less did split duty during the regular season while Fuhr had the lion's share of playoff time. This is why both had good, but not great, voting finishes in the Vezina, too much vote splitting. So Moog holds out and is traded. What will happen to the Oilers? Now a lot of the work is placed on Fuhr's shoulders. He plays 75 games, has 40 wins and 4 shutouts which both lead the NHL. Ranford comes in a trade and plays the next most games in net at 6. He was traded for Moog.

Just think about how many games 75 was in 1988. It had been 20-25 years anyways since a goalie played 90% of his teams' games. That was a big deal after a couple decades of coaches generally going for the split, even with goalies like Billy Smith or Ken Dryden, they played less in the regular season than you would think. Throw in Gretzky missing 16 games, another key factor, and I can see why he sits 2nd.
 

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