1980's—Was talent really at its weakest?

[streitz]

He got 50 goals once-hardly puts him in any conversation with Gretzky, Bossy, Kurri, etc.

I agree with that but saying he's a perennial 20 goal scorer destroys any credibility in your argument.

 

[JackSlater]

I've never heard the argument that the talent in the 1980s was particularly weak, so I'm going to lean toward "no" in this instance. Looking from a North American perspective, I think you can say that the talent level was better in the second half of the 1980s than it was in the first half. I would say the same thing about the 1970s as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The early 1980's(1979-80 to 1983-84 NHL seasons) are the weakest in NHL history.

Consider:
1.) seven skaters aged 4o plus were employed:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

2.) only 16 times did a goalie play 60 or more games. Not one played 70.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

3.) as stated previously 4 USA high school players, drafted in June were in the NHL in October.

Combined, there was a talent shorted. Skaters and goalies were rushed while veterans were extended.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Anomaly seasons abound:
First ever 90 goal scorer
First ever 200 point scorer
First 100 point season by an 18 year old (Hawerchuk)...then another (Lemieux)
Nonsense players like Maruk (30 goals to 50 and 60), Blaine Stoughton (50 goals a season, back to the minors by the mid-80s), Randy Carlyle (good, not great offensive defenseman, nets a Norris a couple of ppg seasons), etc.
Seemingly washed up veterans, rise back to the top...Bobby Clarke recaptures a Selke and gets strong Hart consideration in 1983.

 

[brachyrynchos]

I think the '80's will always have that reputation of atrocious defensemen and swiss cheese goaltending. Neither of which I think is true, that decade seemed to have a greater emphasis on offense, by the amount of skilled players and how the game was played. And there were so many talented players available in those draft years (bad ones too), players that brought what they brought...offense, defense, goaltending, and enforcing. To say the talent was the weakest in the '80's I think is a major insult to those players and teams. They weren't all great, and some probably might've benefitted with a different playoff system but that would've came at the sacrifice of the awesome rivalries. No wonder myself and alot of you here found the '80's the most entertaining era.

 

[The Panther]

The early 1980's(1979-80 to 193-84 NHL seasons) are the weakest in NHL history.

Consider:
1.) seven skaters aged 4o plus were employed:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

2.) only 16 times did a goalie play 60 or more games. Not one played 70.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

3.) as stated previously 4 USA high school players, drafted in June were in the NHL in October.

Combined, there was a talent shorted. Skaters and goalies were rushed while veterans were extended.

That's funny. In reality, we all know that there were far more 'old' players in the 1990s than in the 1980s, yet somehow that doesn't make us point to the 90s as a "weak" era in talent.

Then, what in the world does how many games a goalie played have to do with talent level? (Answer: nothing.)

The fact that high-school players jumped straight into the NHL (well, four times in a decade) I think reflects the youth-movement of the NHL at the time. It certainly has nothing to do with talent levels being higher or lower.

 

[The Panther]

Anomaly seasons abound:
First ever 90 goal scorer
First ever 200 point scorer
First 100 point season by an 18 year old (Hawerchuk)...then another (Lemieux)
Nonsense players like Maruk (30 goals to 50 and 60), Blaine Stoughton (50 goals a season, back to the minors by the mid-80s), Randy Carlyle (good, not great offensive defenseman, nets a Norris a couple of ppg seasons), etc.
Seemingly washed up veterans, rise back to the top...Bobby Clarke recaptures a Selke and gets strong Hart consideration in 1983.

C'mon, seriously? Let's see, how many players were getting 90 goals and 200 points? Yeah...

The highest-scoring rookie season ever was in the 90s. The second-highest was in 1981, but that's if you count Stastny as a rookie at 26 or whatever. The third-highest was in 2006 (Ovechkin).

Bobby Clarke in 1982-83 (when he was 33) is a weird example to mention, as it's the exception to the rule of "youth first" in the early-80s. Also, he was 6th in Hart voting, so hardly a major contender. Strange voting trends in NHL awards (Carlisle) have absolutely nothing to do with talent levels. If the 1981 Norris had been awarded to, say, Potvin, instead of Carlisle, does that suddenly change the talent level in the NHL? No.

I do agree that the very early-80s, which were really an extension of the mid-to-late-70s, were a weaker period in general strength of competition. As I think I mentioned before, there is a big difference in the on-ice game between 1981 and 1989. 1989 is very close to today's game (with a red line), just with teams playing a more attacking style and with more talented players concentrated on each team. Prior to the late-80s, there were plenty of very high-level games at the same level of today; it's just that they were played between the very good teams. Watch game 1 of the 1983 Finals, and it could be a game in the Finals played today. By contrast, if you go back and watch Toronto vs. Vancouver in 1984 or something, you'd think it was shinny. Much more parity was achieved by the late-80s, and the supply of players was getting bigger and bigger, while the size of the League was not.

Definitely the "weakest" period in NHL history for strength of competition was c. the mid-1970s. I would say roughly 1973 to 1982 was the weaker period. 1973 forward is the WHA-effect of purging NHL rosters, and thus watering both Leagues down without having enough of a talent / international-personnel supply to keep up the competition. The 1979 forward 21-team League was a contraction from that, but it seemed to take a few years to shake off the messy wild-west style of the 70s before something of a stable and professional League emerged.

If we're talking in absolute terms, "talent" as such doesn't change at all in any era of history.

 

[Doctor No]

3.) as stated previously 4 USA high school players, drafted in June were in the NHL in October.

This hardly seems fair, since USA high school players were (generally) not draft eligible prior to this period.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's funny. In reality, we all know that there were far more 'old' players in the 1990s than in the 1980s, yet somehow that doesn't make us point to the 90s as a "weak" era in talent.

Then, what in the world does how many games a goalie played have to do with talent level? (Answer: nothing.)

The fact that high-school players jumped straight into the NHL (well, four times in a decade) I think reflects the youth-movement of the NHL at the time. It certainly has nothing to do with talent levels being higher or lower.

The focus was 1979-80 thru 1983-84 not the 1980s.

Compared to a similar time frame, 1989-90 to 1993-94, despite an expansion adding three new teams creating a 24 team NHL, with only 1 skater over 40:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Perhaps your reality but not the NHL's

How many games a team's first goalie plays reflects the degree of difficulty in scoring.Teams/coaches play the game to win. Playing depth goalies, 2nd and below reduces the teams ability to win.

USA high school players. Four in five seasons, none before, none since. Issue is the level of competition which in the case of US high schools has always been lower than major junior, international junior, NCAA etc.

Years ago there was a poster on this forum who thought contemporary Midget AAA players could play with previous generation NHLers. Overlooking the lack of adult strength, maturity and experience.

 

[Canadiens1958]

This hardly seems fair, since USA high school players were (generally) not draft eligible prior to this period.

With good reason. And none have made the jump since.

 

[Doctor No]

With good reason.

Missing the point.

 

[The Panther]

Compared to a similar time frame, 1989-90 to 1993-94, despite an expansion adding three new teams creating a 24 team NHL, with only 1 skater over 40:

I don't see what significance how many players "over 40" has on anything. When Jagr was over 40 a few years ago, he led a winning NHL team in scoring. It's just an arbitrary statistic, and there will be always be the occasional outlier to skew it. An NHL with three guys over 40 isn't necessarily worse than an NHL with 20 guys who are, say, 38 or over. Then, are these players real, top-6 kind of players or just role players who ride the bench and play 7 minutes a night?

I'd be more interested in doing a comparison of how many top-six defencemen and top-9 forwards (in scoring, say) on each team were 35 or older between the early 80s and the mid-90s or so. I'll be there are way more of these in the mid-90s. (Which doesn't necessarily mean the mid-90s was bad.)

 

[blogofmike]

Anomaly seasons abound:
First ever 90 goal scorer
First ever 200 point scorer
First 100 point season by an 18 year old (Hawerchuk)...then another (Lemieux)
Nonsense players like Maruk (30 goals to 50 and 60), Blaine Stoughton (50 goals a season, back to the minors by the mid-80s), Randy Carlyle (good, not great offensive defenseman, nets a Norris a couple of ppg seasons), etc.
Seemingly washed up veterans, rise back to the top...Bobby Clarke recaptures a Selke and gets strong Hart consideration in 1983.

Calling Bobby Clarke's 1983 "strong Hart consideration" is dubious. It's worth 0.03 Hart shares if you rounded up.

Looking at 1983 we see these top scorers:

Rk	Top 10 1983 Scorer	Star in 1979?	Star in 1987?
1	Wayne Gretzky*	Not in NHL	Yes
2	Peter Stastny*	Not in NHL	Yes
3	Denis Savard*	Not in NHL	Yes
4	Mike Bossy*	Yes	Retiring (Back) but probably yes
5	Barry Pederson	Not in NHL	No (Post Back Tumour Removal)
5	Marcel Dionne*	Yes	No (Age 36)
7	Mark Messier*	Not in NHL	Yes
8	Michel Goulet*	Not in NHL	Yes
9	Jari Kurri*	Not in NHL	Yes
9	Glenn Anderson*	Not in NHL	Yes
9	Kent Nilsson	Not in NHL	Yes

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

9 of the top 11 are new. Old guys aren't outshining the new guys. The new guys remain stars for a while too.

Meanwhile in 1979:

Rk	Top 10 1979 Scorer	Star in 1983?
1	Bryan Trottier*	Yes
2	Marcel Dionne*	Yes
3	Guy Lafleur*	No
4	Mike Bossy*	Yes
5	Bob MacMillan	No
6	Guy Chouinard	No
7	Denis Potvin	Yes
8	Bernie Federko	Yes
9	Clark Gillies	No
10	Dave Taylor	No
11	Dennis Maruk	No

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Randoms like Maruk pop up here too. Clark Gillies is a 2-time 1st Team All Star. Potvin is still a star in 1983 but he wouldn't be able to challenge for a Top 10 Ross finish.

The 1968-79 period was far weaker. See Bobby Orr winning the Norris in 1968 in playing half a season (and not being a great scorer yet) because all the other defenders were awful.

Lemieux was 19 not 18, and 18 year old players spent a long time being ineligible to play. Not that Hawerchuk's 100 Point year means the NHL was weak. Unless it was also weak the only other time an 18 year old hit 100 when Crosby did it in 2006? ​

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't see what significance how many players "over 40" has on anything. When Jagr was over 40 a few years ago, he led a winning NHL team in scoring. It's just an arbitrary statistic, and there will be always be the occasional outlier to skew it. An NHL with three guys over 40 isn't necessarily worse than an NHL with 20 guys who are, say, 38 or over. Then, are these players real, top-6 kind of players or just role players who ride the bench and play 7 minutes a night?

I'd be more interested in doing a comparison of how many top-six defencemen and top-9 forwards (in scoring, say) on each team were 35 or older between the early 80s and the mid-90s or so. I'll be there are way more of these in the mid-90s. (Which doesn't necessarily mean the mid-90s was bad.)

Goes to the experience gap and the style of play offensively and defensively.

1984-85 and the start of the short shift game, the NHL had only 5 skaters 35 or older:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

All with a negative plus/minus, an indication that they had problems competing.

Be my guest do your comparison.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Missing the point.

No, the point is not NHL Entry Draft eligibility as you portray the situation, rather scholastic/athletic age eligibility in various academic jurisdictions in Canada and the USA.

In Quebec, high school ends in grade 11, most grads are 16 or 17 since K starts at the age of 5.

Doubt you will have 19 or 20 year olds playing high school hockey. Certainly not in Canada.

As a result the player does not face the same level of mature competition as CHL or USHL which allow 19 and 20 year olds.

 

[Hoser]

He got 50 goals once-hardly puts him in any conversation with Gretzky, Bossy, Kurri, etc.

Man you really are selling the guy short. He may have only hit 50 goals once, but he hit 40 nine times and had 32 or more SEVENTEEN times. Gretzky played one more season than Gartner and only ('only') managed to hit 30 goals fifteen times.

Mike Gartner is 24th all-time in goals-per-game; Kurri, who played in the exact same era, is 31st.