1980's—Was talent really at its weakest?

rfournier103

Black & Gold ‘till I’m Dead & Cold.
Sponsor
Dec 17, 2011
8,330
16,982
Massachusetts
Nice list. Call and raise with.

Bob Carpenter
Brian Lawton
Phil Housley
Tom Barrasso

Bob Carpenter = 50 goal scorer.

Brian Lawton = draft bust.

Phil Housley = Career points 1,232. HHOF 2015.

Tom Barasso = 1984 Calder and Vezina winner. Two time Stanley Cup Champion.

1981 - 1983 NHL Entry draft picks out of US High School hockey who went directly to the NHL the fall of the Entry Draft.

So the challenge for all readers is showing.

How many US high school players have jumped to the NHL so quickly since?

Has US high school hockey deteriorated tremendously since its peak in the early 1980s/late 1970s?

Or in the alternative was NHL hockey very weak?

I think the NCAA is being seen by many players as adding even more and better development than jumping directly to the NHL. Could some of them jump to the NHL right away? Maybe. But I think top American talent is being advised to not jump so quickly without at least a year or two more of conditioning, growth, and maturity.

Better yet explain the difference between Tom Barrasso and Harry Lumley.

Barasso has twice as many Stanley Cup Championships as Lumley.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vanzig

rfournier103

Black & Gold ‘till I’m Dead & Cold.
Sponsor
Dec 17, 2011
8,330
16,982
Massachusetts
Ummm... Clark is far from an all-time great.

Always loved his game, and as you know, injuries definitely held him back. Underwhelming as a Number 1 overall? Yes. But he was as talented as alot of guys skating in the NHL today. If he's the only guy on my list you have a beef with, I'd say its a damn good list.
 

Vanzig

Registered User
Aug 6, 2018
113
46
Vancouver, B.C.
I love all era’s of hockey, I try & be as unbiased as I can, People will always favour their fav Players/Teams which is life in the sports world!! When someone asks me my Fav Team I say “TEAM CANADA”. The 1980’s was a great decade & had some of the Best All Star’s Ever & Playoff Hockey in 1980’s was killer.

If you are gonna show a young kid Game Video of a Hockey game if you want to see speed, magic, saves, goals and just pure excitement then slap on the 1987 (WORLD/Canada CUP) Finals with “Russia vs Canada”. That was probably the Greatest Series Ever, The 1972 SUMMIT SERIES was the Most Important, the 1976 Squad had the most HOF’amers on their team, 1991 Canada was Undefeated (6-0-2) but the 1987 Teams on both sides were Killer, We will probably never see Hockey like that again, The Russians were loaded & had KLM line in their Prime, You had Prime time GRETZ, MESS, LEMIEUX, COFFEY, BOURQUE etc etc.

*If you want a kid to get into hockey or to learn how to actually try and deke instead of todays dump n chase most the time show the kids the magic f 1987. Scoring was up yes, but Hits/Fight’s were higher too & the players didn’t have the SPACE AGE Equipment that the Players have today to keep themselves from Injury.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boxscore

streitz

Registered User
Jul 22, 2018
1,258
319
Interesting list considering Jagr technically played last year

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
McDavid
Jagr (all time great inclusion)
Karlsson
Matthews
Kucherov
Stamkos
Hedman
Doughty
Thornton
Burns
Sedins
Zetterberg
Kane
Laine
Chara
Kopitar
Scheifle
Barzal
Bergeron
Giroux
Marchand
Mackinnon
Getzlaf
Jones
Provorov
Eichel
Tavares
Bobrovsky

(Tried to include guys that are HOF locks or HOF projections based on their excellent early starts)

This might be as good as the list currently gets at least within the next 3-5 years, Hughes and Lafrenier could be game changers though, although it's very hard to replace Jagr, Chara, Zetterberg, Sedins and Thornton



75% of those guys can't consistently put up ppg seasons.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,845
4,675
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
And why is that? Because you think so? Well I think otherwise, so I guess that cancels it out.

One of us is saying that more competition and training=better players, the other is denying this, people can decide who is right.
Well, we do have some evidence. Elderly Sakic, Selanne, Jagr, Lidstrom, and Brodeur, all 90s relics, tore the post lockout League apart. Can you imagine what they would do to it in their prime?

Can you seriously compare any of the top seasons from Malkin, Crosby, and Ovechkin to any of the Hart seasons between 1980 and 2001? 08 Ovy probably snatches the Hart from 95 Lindros but that's about it.

Today's goalies are notably weaker than those from the pre lockout era. Only two post lockout goalies won both a Cup and a Vezina (and only one -- prior to this year). Not a trait of great goalies.

There are few more but I need to go now.
 

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
Today's goalies are notably weaker than those from the pre lockout era. Only two post lockout goalies won both a Cup and a Vezina (and only one -- prior to this year). Not a trait of great goalies.

Hypothetically, suppose that there were 20 great goalies in the league today.

Wouldn't the phenomenon you describe in the quote here be likely to happen in that scenario as well?

How many goaltenders would currently have both a Cup and a Vezina if there were 20 great goalies playing?
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,198
15,758
Tokyo, Japan
Another thing younger fans often don't realize about the "firewagon hockey" days (c.1979, or a bit earlier, to 1994) is that there were very good defensive teams and systems in this era, very much comparable to today's.

In the early/mid-80s, when scoring was at its highest (through three lines per team), Montreal and Washington were notably impressive defensively.

In 1981-82 (when Gretzky scored 92 goals), Montreal allowed only 223 goals against.

In 1983-84 (when Gretzky scored 153 points in 51 games), Washington allowed 226 goals against (including, I think, 94 against in the latter half of the season!).

Both those numbers are better than most NHL teams today, defensively (albeit they didn't have overtime then).


Point being, scoring being high had nothing to do with talent levels or strength of competition, and everything to do with style of play. It's just a fact that most coaches then preferred the teams to play an aggressive, counter-attacking, risk-taking style of play. Montreal and Washington were different, proving that teams certainly could play at exactly today's level of team defence if they had chosen to. They chose not to.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,841
6,555
Brampton, ON
Another thing younger fans often don't realize about the "firewagon hockey" days (c.1979, or a bit earlier, to 1994) is that there were very good defensive teams and systems in this era, very much comparable to today's.

In the early/mid-80s, when scoring was at its highest (through three lines per team), Montreal and Washington were notably impressive defensively.

In 1981-82 (when Gretzky scored 92 goals), Montreal allowed only 223 goals against.

In 1983-84 (when Gretzky scored 153 points in 51 games), Washington allowed 226 goals against (including, I think, 94 against in the latter half of the season!).

Both those numbers are better than most NHL teams today, defensively (albeit they didn't have overtime then).


Point being, scoring being high had nothing to do with talent levels or strength of competition, and everything to do with style of play. It's just a fact that most coaches then preferred the teams to play an aggressive, counter-attacking, risk-taking style of play. Montreal and Washington were different, proving that teams certainly could play at exactly today's level of team defence if they had chosen to. They chose not to.

Other than the fact the neutral zone trap (a defensive strategy) caught on and eventually spread throughout the League and the increase in clutching and grabbing, what exactly changed after the 1994 Lockout in terms of defensive play?

It wasn't as if all these new super amazing defensemen showed up suddenly.

Goaltending equipment obviously grew in size during the 90s (maybe too much).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZeroPucksGiven

streitz

Registered User
Jul 22, 2018
1,258
319
Other than the fact the neutral zone trap (a defensive strategy) caught on and eventually spread throughout the League and the increase in clutching and grabbing, what exactly changed after the 1994 Lockout in terms of defensive play?

It wasn't as if all these new super amazing defensemen showed up suddenly.

Goaltending equipment obviously grew in size during the 90s (maybe too much).


Talent dilution.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Bob Carpenter = 50 goal scorer.

Brian Lawton = draft bust.

Phil Housley = Career points 1,232. HHOF 2015.

Tom Barasso = 1984 Calder and Vezina winner. Two time Stanley Cup Champion.



I think the NCAA is being seen by many players as adding even more and better development than jumping directly to the NHL. Could some of them jump to the NHL right away? Maybe. But I think top American talent is being advised to not jump so quickly without at least a year or two more of conditioning, growth, and maturity.



Barasso has twice as many Stanley Cup Championships as Lumley.

So for a three season window the advice was shelved. Fact remains, The four were able to play in a weak NHL. Similar to 17 year old Harry Lumley during the WWII era. Strange coincidence.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Other than the fact the neutral zone trap (a defensive strategy) caught on and eventually spread throughout the League and the increase in clutching and grabbing, what exactly changed after the 1994 Lockout in terms of defensive play?

It wasn't as if all these new super amazing defensemen showed up suddenly.

Goaltending equipment obviously grew in size during the 90s (maybe too much).

Trap goes back to at least 1950.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
I know that I've heard this a lot, that the 1980's NHL was the weakest era for talent. But is this really the case? WHA folded in 1979, making its best players available to the NHL. I wonder if our fascination with's superteams (Islanders and Oilers) means the rest of the talent simply doesn't make a strong enough impression on us. Perhaps the sheer dominance of 99 and 66 also cause us to slight some other great talents whom otherwise would be remembered much more highly.

I would argue that the 80s were poor in terms of depth. A 3rd pairing D or 10th forward was much worse, on balance, than would be the case in the coming decades. Put any contemporary 4th line regular in that decade and I believe he'd be able to win a roster spot on almost any team, quite easily.

But when you say "talent," I'm thinking top players. The top players in the 80s were both plentiful and phenomenal at hockey.

The gap between the great and the terrible being so large is why so many guys put up such gaudy statistics in that decade, in my opinion. By the late 90s, that had narrowed remarkably.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,198
15,758
Tokyo, Japan
Other than the fact the neutral zone trap (a defensive strategy) caught on and eventually spread throughout the League and the increase in clutching and grabbing, what exactly changed after the 1994 Lockout in terms of defensive play?

It wasn't as if all these new super amazing defensemen showed up suddenly.

Goaltending equipment obviously grew in size during the 90s (maybe too much).
Yeah, it's a good question. As memory serves, overall scoring dropped quite a bit from 1985-86 to 1986-87, then went up a bit again from 1987-1989, and then from 1989-90 there's a fairly noticeable drop in scoring up to 1997-98 (the exception being the shortened Work-Stoppage season, which was unusually low, probably to do a lot of back-to-back games vs. division rivals only).

So, it's a continuum, not a sudden drop off... 1995-96 was pretty high scoring, still. It's really during 1996-97 when the scoring levels really start to taper off. Nevertheless, there had been a general downturn since 1986-87.

(Cue Canadiens1958 with a post about the "short shift game"!)

I suppose there are a lot of factors there, including the obvious things like (yeah) the short-shifts increasing (decreases chances of scoring due to fatigue, or scrubs vs. stars), goaltender athleticism increasing, the 'butterfly' style increasing, size of goaltenders increasing, size of goaltenders' equipment increasing, etc., etc. I also think the increase in the size of the NHL (expansion) created a lot more parity, and more parity means less skilled players assembled on any handful of particular teams, which in turn means less chance of dominant teams being able to "out-skill" other teams to victory. Consequently, teams instead tried defence-first.

But one thing that I think doesn't get mentioned enough in this transition is Youth vs. Age. From the late 70s through, maybe, the late 80s, good teams and even dynasties (Edmonton) were built around young players. If you go back and look at NHL-team rosters c. 1981 to 1985, you find a lot of teams with a lot of really young players. I mean, Tom Barrasso came into the NHL straight out of high school, was a #1 goalie (for Bowman, no less), and won the Vezina. That's inconceivable today. Pretty much every team drafted 18-year-olds and threw them into the line-up right away. And 18 or 20-year-olds don't play defence as well (or as much) as older players do. By contrast, those 18-year-olds in 1982 were 32-year-olds in 1996 and were still going strong as 1st-liners, and were still among the game's biggest stars and biggest scorers. Simply put, there were a lot of older 'stars' in the 90s than in most previous and subsequent eras. That also has the tendency to keep scoring down.
 

Schmee

Registered User
Aug 24, 2018
17
8
Oh. Then the answer to your original premise is categorically 'no'.
I never said it was the weakest era. I was opening up a discussion based around what I believe is a misconception regarding the 80's.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,845
4,675
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Hypothetically, suppose that there were 20 great goalies in the league today.

Wouldn't the phenomenon you describe in the quote here be likely to happen in that scenario as well?

How many goaltenders would currently have both a Cup and a Vezina if there were 20 great goalies playing?
But there aren't 20 great goalies at any one point! Every era has between 3 and 5. Between 1950s and 1990s, all great goalies won the Cup at least once. Even those who didn't play on the dynasties. In the 2010s -- none.
 

Hoser

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
1,846
403
I never said it was the weakest era. I was opening up a discussion based around what I believe is a misconception regarding the 80's.

That's the premise that's wrong: that there are people out there who say talent was at its nadir in the '80s. '70s is the popular opinion.
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
17,884
16,324
I don't know if talent was at it's weakest, but I really believe that the disparity in talent levels was at it's largest. This is something the league lacks these days.

Even today, you know there are certain players who just have far superior talent than their peers, but it doesn't translate as much as it used to. There are certain players who should be rising higher than the pack than they are right now, if the game allows it.

Although, I must say that the crackdown on stick infractions is a step in the right direction. That's not to say that there wasn't alot of hooking and holding back in the day, but it takes more to score on today's goalies and the fearless shot blockers in front of them.
 
Last edited:

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
But there aren't 20 great goalies at any one point! Every era has between 3 and 5. Between 1950s and 1990s, all great goalies won the Cup at least once. Even those who didn't play on the dynasties. In the 2010s -- none.

Care to answer the question that I asked?

(My point is that the evidence you provided is not sufficient evidence that there aren't any great goalies.)
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
17,884
16,324
My point is there was clearly more offensive talent in the 80's and 90's. Frankly more goaltending talent aswell considering goalies for the past 20 years literally go butterfly and hardly move.

For goalies, we can't say they are any less talented today. Their mechanics are so far advanced that we rarely see them have to see them be spectacular. It doesn't mean they can't be spectacular.

Also, they make their movements seem effortless, but it's not as easy as it looks. It's a skill in itself to be economical.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vanzig

Bluesguru

Registered User
Aug 10, 2014
1,957
823
St. Louis
Let’s see:

Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Mark Messier
Steve Yzerman
Ray Bourque
Cam Neely
Patrick Roy
Grant Fuhr
Wendell Clark
Paul Coffey
Denis Potvin
Luc Robitaille
Chris Chellios
Ron Francis
Mike Bossy
Jari Kurri
Lanny McDonald
Pat LaFontaine
Bryan Trottier
The Stastny brothers

Time prohibits me from listing more all-time greats that just happened to play in the 1980s, but I think a case could be made that in the ‘80s, NHL talent was at it’s strongest.
Let’s see:

Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Mark Messier
Steve Yzerman
Ray Bourque
Cam Neely
Patrick Roy
Grant Fuhr
Wendell Clark
Paul Coffey
Denis Potvin
Luc Robitaille
Chris Chellios
Ron Francis
Mike Bossy
Jari Kurri
Lanny McDonald
Pat LaFontaine
Bryan Trottier
The Stastny brothers

Time prohibits me from listing more all-time greats that just happened to play in the 1980s, but I think a case could be made that in the ‘80s, NHL talent was at it’s strongest.

I agree. You left off some guys like Hawerchuk and Mike Gartner, but you put those guys in the 80's and let them play in today's game with the open ice, zone type play you see today, it would be a treat to see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rfournier103

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad