1979 Challenge Cup discussion thread

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Well probably Canada could have been better if they had trained all year long together. The thing is back then coaching was awful in Canada...Look at the garbage horrible hockey almost every nhl team played back then...

USSR dominated European-World-Olympic hockey that's a fact and the other fact is they dominated Canada and Nhl Clubs almost every time and were vastly superior in hockey skills. The rest is just "WHAT IFS"...

Hockey in 1975 in Canada was about brutality and intimidation Hockey in Canada in 2010 is about Soviet Style skilled hockey + the efficient all around Canadian game...Crosby Toews have nothing to do with the goons who represented Canada during the USSR dominance...
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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Didn't Sergeï Fedorov won the Hart Trophy? Mogilny had 76 goals one year Bure two 60 goals seasons in a row Zubov 89pts one year PLEASE...

The difference is in Canada hockey is by far #1. Especially in the pool of players. Sure the depth will always be better but for a long period of time the depth Canada had didn't produced enough high quality players. I remember by Nagano time and the years after how the league was dominated by the Jagr Selanne Forsberg Yashin Bure Lidstrom etc. Then after a couple of epic failures Hockey Canada decided to reintroduce skills in the teaching...Now you get Stamkos Toews Crosby caliber players coming out every year it seems.

With the pool of players if the training process and coaching would be good Canada should DOMINATE. USSR dominated 60's 70's 80's. The 90's weren't dominate by anyone and the new millenium could be considered Canada's but when you look at the 7th place in Torino you have to wonder...But at the moment the NHL is dominated by Canadians wich was very far from true 10 years ago.

Those are good players, but as a whole Russians have never the most dominant group of players in the league.

Trophies since the 89-90 season:

Hart: Can 11, Cze 3, Rus 3, Swe 2, USA 1 (**Brett Hull, Belleville, ON, Canada)
Vezna: Can 9, Cze 6, USA 3, Fin 1, Ger 1 (**Kolzig raised in Canada), Rus 0
Norris: Can 9, Swe 6, USA 4, Svk 1, Rus 0
Art Ross: Can 11, Cze 5, Swe 2, Rus 2
Conn Smythe: Can 16, Swe 2, USA 1, Rus 1
 

Pushkin

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You forgot the Rocket Richard Trophy the only one not given subjectively by the Canadian Media...

My point is Soviet Era players did very well in the NHL. Even past their prime Larionov and Fetisov were key members in 5 Stanley Cups. Fedorov has a Hart should have had a Conny Smythe and has 3 Stanley Cups. Mogilny with a Cup has had an awesome career same with Bure and Zubov who was one of the 2-3 best defenseman for 10 years and has 2 Cups...Makarov had a great career and the Calder... The only real bust was Krutov but that had nothing to do with hockey talent...

Finally remember that before 2005 nhl referees were clowns told to not do their job wich once again went againts the skilled those guys had. Imagine today Crosby and friends being grabbed and held and punched all the time...
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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On the depth side Canada has and always will have the edge. They have 600 000 hockey players in Canada and not even 100 000 in Russia that's not the point...While the USSR was dominating hockey for 3 decades they also were one of the power house in Soccer-Football the #1 sport in the world with one WC 1/2 final 1EuroChampionship and 3 Europeans finals. + Dominating just about every Olympics all around... At the moment Canada is logically and finally ahead but for 30 odd years that wasn't the case and this was in large part due to hockey in Canada being run in a barbarian pre-historic way...
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

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May 16, 2009
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On the depth side Canada has and always will have the edge. They have 600 000 hockey players in Canada and not even 100 000 in Russia that's not the point...While the USSR was dominating hockey for 3 decades they also were one of the power house in Soccer-Football the #1 sport in the world with one WC 1/2 final 1EuroChampionship and 3 Europeans finals. + Dominating just about every Olympics all around... At the moment Canada is logically and finally ahead but for 30 odd years that wasn't the case and this was in large part due to hockey in Canada being run in a barbarian pre-historic way...

Please tell us all you know about ther inner workings of Hockey Canada. I've been a part of it myself, and two guys I know very well are two of the top men in the SHA, but would love to hear your insight.

You forgot the Rocket Richard Trophy the only one not given subjectively by the Canadian Media...

My point is Soviet Era players did very well in the NHL. Even past their prime Larionov and Fetisov were key members in 5 Stanley Cups. Fedorov has a Hart should have had a Conny Smythe and has 3 Stanley Cups. Mogilny with a Cup has had an awesome career same with Bure and Zubov who was one of the 2-3 best defenseman for 10 years and has 2 Cups...Makarov had a great career and the Calder... The only real bust was Krutov but that had nothing to do with hockey talent...

Finally remember that before 2005 nhl referees were clowns told to not do their job wich once again went againts the skilled those guys had. Imagine today Crosby and friends being grabbed and held and punched all the time...

I guess the Canadian media favored Hasek and Lidstrom all those years. Or just maybe they were pretty good - better than any Russian goalie or defenceman.

How many Canadian players were a part of those teams you listed, by the way. I don't think any one of those players was the sole reason for any of those championships.

As for the refereeing being the reason you lost certain tournaments...I hear this same whining from every loser out there. It couldn't possibly be that we were beaten by a better team...let's blame the refs! Weak, man, very weak. Don't go showing me selective Youtube clips and your own biases on this one, I've heard them all, and they are all equally desperate and pathetic.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

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May 16, 2009
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On the depth side Canada has and always will have the edge. They have 600 000 hockey players in Canada and not even 100 000 in Russia that's not the point...While the USSR was dominating hockey for 3 decades they also were one of the power house in Soccer-Football the #1 sport in the world with one WC 1/2 final 1EuroChampionship and 3 Europeans finals. + Dominating just about every Olympics all around... At the moment Canada is logically and finally ahead but for 30 odd years that wasn't the case and this was in large part due to hockey in Canada being run in a barbarian pre-historic way...

The benefits of a system that can take away a human being's personal rights, freedoms and choices for the "good" of the nation.
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Well please don't be ridiculous.Everyone in their right mind would agree that CC87 was stolen from the Soviets by Koharski. Were talking ColdWar era and something not seen in any other sports a Canadian ref for a Canadian game. Mind you he could have made a great job but it was obvious he had directives...When 3-0 Soviets early on it looked all too much like 198-1...

In general I don't blame referees when they have the benefit of being probably impartial...

I have never blamed the refs for 1980 for example and never blamed the refs for the hammering in Vancouver...

1972= Soviets were humiliating Canada 3-1-1 in the series before you injured our best player= WE WON

1984= That's our fault we didn't score on the 2on1 and the rest is history that's fair one.

1987= Series tied a 1 we were leading 3-0 early in the deciding game and if not for Koharski it would have finished 7-3 or 8-1 again...

The rest I have no problem!


What I mean is that come Nagano time Russia and the Czechs were winning everything in sight in International play and Europeans were dominating the NHL. Something that should never had happened considering Canada's talent pool if the coaching and the development would have been good.(Like it is today).

The overhaul that happened at Hockey Canada after the failure of Nagano the failures at the U-20's and Europeans dominating way too much considering their pool of players in the NHL that came in the late 90's early millenium would have happened WAY WAY before if the Don Korharski and the Bobby Clarke's of this world would have been fair sports back in the days...
 

Zine

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Feb 28, 2002
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During the pregame Dick Irvin mentioned that Scotty Bowman said Canada had ample practice time.:dunno:

Also to quote Bobby Orr (from the same broadcast): "I don't think that is a factor, that they had not played together that long. The lines, a lot of lines are intact. There are a couple of players from the different lines, they are intact. I don't think that is a factor at all, they are ready. There is so much talent out there. If they bear down, play their game, I don't think there is any doubt that they will win the series."
 
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Zine

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Regardless, the Soviets had to juggle and patch up lines which would significantly nullify 'supposed:laugh:' chemistry. Right from the start 2 lines were broken up with Kharlamov's injury in game 1; then V. Golikov went down in game 2. Good lord, in game 3 defenceman Gimaev was playing center with Makarov and Tyumenev.
It's almost comical that Soviets won game 3 6-0 having to juggle lines without Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov, Yakushev, Maltsev and Golikov in the line-up.


Also, team NHL had Bossy-Trottier-Gillies, Lafleur-Shutt, Barber-Clarke, McDonald-Sittler.....practice time and chemistry should not have been an issue; not that it was anyhow.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Yakushev 72

Mr. Kanandendsisk,

You're totally wrong when you say that Canadian throw-together teams travelled around the world beating the Soviets. After 1972, Canadian NHL'ers refused to play Soviet teams away from their own home rinks, with their own fans and their own referees, with the exception of the World Championships. The Canadian NHL'ers, many of whom were considered the best players in Canada, were beaten by the Soviets every year except 1984, when LeMieux and company beat the Soviets 3-1 before losing to the Czechs for the Gold Medal. Every other year, the Canadians lost to the Soviets (they did tie the Soviets, 3-3, in 1987). The Soviets attempted to organized another '72 style series, but the Canadians were not interested in any series against the Soviets that would not be played on Canadian rinks.
 

YMB29

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Sep 25, 2006
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The Challenge Cup was the first time all (or almost all) of the best Canadian and Soviet players played against each other since 72.
It sounds like in Canada the 72 Summit Series would have been considered as just a set of semi-serious exhibition games with an unprepared Canadian allstar team, if team Canada had lost...


The Soviets never had enough people playing hockey to be an equal to Canada.
Equal in terms of what? The number of players and teams?


The fact that Canada could throw together a group of players and regularly defeat the Soviet National team shows that overall Canada was way way above the USSR in hockey.
It is your claim, not a fact...


The benefits of a system that can take away a human being's personal rights, freedoms and choices for the "good" of the nation.
That Cold War propaganda is still in your head?
 

Zine

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Feb 28, 2002
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Mr. Kanandendsisk,

You're totally wrong when you say that Canadian throw-together teams travelled around the world beating the Soviets. After 1972, Canadian NHL'ers refused to play Soviet teams away from their own home rinks, with their own fans and their own referees, with the exception of the World Championships. The Canadian NHL'ers, many of whom were considered the best players in Canada, were beaten by the Soviets every year except 1984, when LeMieux and company beat the Soviets 3-1 before losing to the Czechs for the Gold Medal. Every other year, the Canadians lost to the Soviets (they did tie the Soviets, 3-3, in 1987). The Soviets attempted to organized another '72 style series, but the Canadians were not interested in any series against the Soviets that would not be played on Canadian rinks.

Interesting, never knew about that.

If true it verifies that Canada (i.e. the criminal Eagleson) was not interested participating in a fair and neutral best v best tournament.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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Mr. Kanandendsisk,

You're totally wrong when you say that Canadian throw-together teams travelled around the world beating the Soviets. After 1972, Canadian NHL'ers refused to play Soviet teams away from their own home rinks, with their own fans and their own referees, with the exception of the World Championships. The Canadian NHL'ers, many of whom were considered the best players in Canada, were beaten by the Soviets every year except 1984, when LeMieux and company beat the Soviets 3-1 before losing to the Czechs for the Gold Medal. Every other year, the Canadians lost to the Soviets (they did tie the Soviets, 3-3, in 1987). The Soviets attempted to organized another '72 style series, but the Canadians were not interested in any series against the Soviets that would not be played on Canadian rinks.

I beleive I said when Hockey Canada could assemble a team of their top players, not just some NHLers.
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Very good comments in here apart from the same imaginative folklore excuses from Kanadensick67!

I didn't knew Canada refused to but well no surprise. It's really a shame how the propaganda in the western hockey media as destroyed the reality. Wich was that 99% of the time the Soviets were outplaying the Canadians in their own backyard with their refs and everything. Like I said earlier if not for the Clarke Eagleson Koharski we would have seen much better hockey in NA way way before the post Nagano disaster...
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

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May 16, 2009
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Well please don't be ridiculous.Everyone in their right mind would agree that CC87 was stolen from the Soviets by Koharski. Were talking ColdWar era and something not seen in any other sports a Canadian ref for a Canadian game. Mind you he could have made a great job but it was obvious he had directives...When 3-0 Soviets early on it looked all too much like 198-1...

First, not everyone thinks that 1987 was stolen from anyone. Stop Mario and Gretzky and then you win the series. You couldn't.

Second, if we are going to throw out all Cold War series due to the obvious biases of the refs (regardless of nationality, since you were either on one side or the other), I am fine with that. I guess that means Russia is even weaker internationally, because they haven't won as much in the post-Cold War era.

Olympics - Russia has a bronze and a silver compared to Canada's two golds.
World Championships - Russia has 7 medals compared to Canada's 10 (Canada has had 5 golds to Russia's 3).
WJC - Russia has 4 gold, Canada with 10 gold (Canada has 18 medals to Russia's 15).
World Cups - Canada has a gold and silver, Russia has nothing.
U18 - Russia has the edge, 8 medals to 3 (3 Russian golds to Canada's 2).
U17 - Canada 31 medals, Russia 1 (12 golds to Russia's 1).



Good thing I didn't get into women's hockey, world Junior A challenges, the Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament (the real U18 championship, for my money) where the differences are even more in favor of Canada, and dramatically so!

So there you have it. In this time post-Cold War, where the officiating has obviously been more unbiased, according to you, Canada has basically owned Russia.

Too bad we couldn't have gotten that officiating straightened out sooner.:naughty:
 
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Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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This was one of the worst post ever. No one here is arguing about Russia vs. Canada but USSR vs. Canada...

And still if you look at it Russia is 1-1 with Canada at the Olympics and about 50\50 in head to head at Worlds and U20. But that's not the point we're talking about USSR hockey dominance.

Sure in 1987 if we would have used your hockey terrorist 101 method guide we could have injured Gretzky...

Russia is weaker right now that's a fact and Canada is better now that's another fact.

Canada as finally realized the potential they have with the immense hockey pool at their disposal by FINALLY teaching real hockey and developping skilled players(Soviet style) while keeping the nice Canadian touch(not the barbaric kind). But if not for Clarke Eagleson Koharski and friends that would have happened bot 5-10 years ago but 30+ years ago...

The only real defeat the Soviet had vs. Canada was in 1984 and some U20 in the 80's that's it.

If not we ruled Olympics Worlds Nhl-Russia Series Summit Series we won in 81-87 as well etc. You can turn a blind eye to your terrorist act on the ice and with the zebras but the fact is for 3 decades USSR= #1 BY FAR IN HOCKEY.
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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And for Kanadensick67 having the most teams players etc and the sport being much more popular in one country doesn't mean they are better at it than another one...

The good comparable was Canada in hockey and England in Soccer-Football...

Sure the sport is #1 in England by far but their National Team sucked for decades...while some countries with far less players and everything were way better aka. Holland...

Same thing in hockey during 60's 70's 80's...Canada was sending under-skilled barbaric teams to compete againts untouchable(fairly) Soviets...
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Sure the sport is #1 in England by far but their National Team sucked for decades...while some countries with far less players and everything were way better aka. Holland...

Same thing in hockey during 60's 70's 80's...Canada was sending under-skilled barbaric teams to compete againts untouchable(fairly) Soviets...

Except Canada actually won, and you're left with excuses.
 
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Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Won when and what? No Olympics No Worlds No U20 before 1982...+Lost their faces and pride-dignity in SS and their own little tournament.

Yes maybe they won 10% of the time...that makes it 90% of the time they lost!
 

hammerwielder

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Jan 6, 2008
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Sad to see this has turned into yet another pissing contest with certain posters unable to acknowledge that Canada ever beat the Soviets even once fair and square.

I hope that is a minority view in Russia.

Fact is that our two nations have provided the best hockey games in history. That couldn't happen if one team was dominant over the other.

To say that Canada would never have won anything in the absence of biased refereeing is absurd and untenable. There was no bias in favour of Canada in '72 yet Canada won 3 of the 4 games in the Soviet Union. That also explodes the contention that Canada could only win in Canada. Again, if you look at that series, Canada lost the half played in Canada.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Challenge Cup. I would have thought there would be many interesting issues about that series to discuss on its own.

Speaking more broadly, it is also difficult to dispute that the period between 1972 and 1992 was the most interesting of all in terms of the battle for world hockey supremacy. The Soviet and Canadian systems were then much more like watertight compartments with relatively little cross-pollination. To me that is what makes the era and the major clashes during it so interesting. How those differences played out in the Challenge Cup would be an interesting topic to discuss here.

When I watched the international games starting in 1961, I was always afraid of the Soviets because they were such good players. I would have thought Russian fans, in turn, were afraid of the Canadian players in the sense that they were the one team in the world that could beat their team. Maybe it turns out I'm wrong, but I sure hope not.

I know the Soviet players and coaches respected and admired the Canadian players. That much has been documented in interviews and publications by the Soviet hockey establishment and in Canada.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Won when and what? No Olympics No Worlds No U20 before 1982...+Lost their faces and pride-dignity in SS and their own little tournament.

Yes maybe they won 10% of the time...that makes it 90% of the time they lost!

The USSR actively participated in the only tournament to feature the best players from both sides. If they didn't like the terms, the NHL didn't force them to play.

But they did, and lost, in '84 and '87.
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Yes they and I admire the Gretzky Coffey Savard etc. What they didn't admire was the Clarke-Koharski-Eagleson...

1972 the thing people forget was that by game 6 USSR was leading 3-1-1 and were one toe-win away from winning it. It's 100% proven that at least 2 Canadians guys conspired and committed the crime of injuring the best Soviet player on purpose during this game 6 putting him out of the series.

Sure you could look at it as a victory(1972) but OBJECTIVELY no one with Dignity and Price(as Cherry likes too say) would say that. Canada was suppose to win all 8 games or at worst 7 games and actually it came down to you injuring on purpose the best player in game 6 when you were CLEARLY DOWN FOR THE PIN...

1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively againts.

But unlike others I can acknowledge what was great about Canadian Hockey then but I sure don't turn a blind eye to those who were there to sabotage hockey and fair play...

That's why you should never forget that in no other sport or country someone would have selective memory and would try to tell you without lying that they consider playing 80% at home with home refs and everything isn't as close to fixing sports(wrestling) as it comes...

Canada is #1 now but they were a good #2 before.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

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May 16, 2009
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Sad to see this has turned into yet another pissing contest with certain posters unable to acknowledge that Canada ever beat the Soviets even once fair and square.

I hope that is a minority view in Russia.

Fact is that our two nations have provided the best hockey games in history. That couldn't happen if one team was dominant over the other.

To say that Canada would never have won anything in the absence of biased refereeing is absurd and untenable. There was no bias in favour of Canada in '72 yet Canada won 3 of the 4 games in the Soviet Union. That also explodes the contention that Canada could only win in Canada. Again, if you look at that series, Canada lost the half played in Canada.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Challenge Cup. I would have thought there would be many interesting issues about that series to discuss on its own.

Speaking more broadly, it is also difficult to dispute that the period between 1972 and 1992 was the most interesting of all in terms of the battle for world hockey supremacy. The Soviet and Canadian systems were then much more like watertight compartments with relatively little cross-pollination. To me that is what makes the era and the major clashes during it so interesting. How those differences played out in the Challenge Cup would be an interesting topic to discuss here.

When I watched the international games starting in 1961, I was always afraid of the Soviets because they were such good players. I would have thought Russian fans, in turn, were afraid of the Canadian players in the sense that they were the one team in the world that could beat their team. Maybe it turns out I'm wrong, but I sure hope not.

I know the Soviet players and coaches respected and admired the Canadian players. That much has been documented in interviews and publications by the Soviet hockey establishment and in Canada.

These are all good points.

To speak about the respect factor is good. I think that respect for your opponent is what truly allows you to keep your edge.

I think both national programs have always had it, certainly since best-on-best became the standard. The fans...maybe not so much.

I ONLY consider true best-on-best tournaments when comparing the two, which for me eliminates these mid-season all-star series where no one really has anything on the line.
 

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