18/19 MGMT Thread XI. We're totally rebuilding! LalalaIcan'thearyoulalala...!

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y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
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I'm pretty sure he meant Hughes by "nailing it in 2018".

I also think a lot of the pronouncements we've heard about Hughes are pretty premature so far, not to say I don't think he will be good.

I just realized something. We drafted Hughes in 2018. We drafted Juolevi in 2016. Both are defensemen. Hughes is in the NHL right now. I thought defensemen take longer to develop though? Why is Hughes in the NHL?
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
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Wtf are you talking about? I'm the opposite of a benning cheerleader. I think he's a moron. Still doesn't change the fact that hughes wasn't a complete no brainer where the canucks took him.

How does my point not stand? Hughes was the 4th ranked dmen on Bob's final list. There were plenty of scouting service lists which didn't rank hughes as the 2nd best dmen from the draft.
You choose to ignore everything again. Fine by me. Keep going....
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
22,288
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
I believe that Lars has proven to be superb at the job, just as he was as an NHL defender (despite the one play that cruel, negative people choose to remember).
I always thought of him as a less skilled version of Ohlund. (Which isn’t a knock against Lars as Ohlund in his prime was elite defensively and had a decent shot from the point). Course this is from the viewpoint of a teenager so my perception might not match reality.:naughty:
 
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4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
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I'm pretty sure he meant Hughes by "nailing it in 2018".

I also think a lot of the pronouncements we've heard about Hughes are pretty premature so far, not to say I don't think he will be good.
My brain isn't working that great today.

Not that it ever really does.
 

Phenomenon13

Registered User
Oct 10, 2011
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But Joe Thornton and Tyler Seguin were top 2 picks. :sarcasm:
Hahaha I know you're being sarcastic but I knew this was gonna come up.

The statement was build an elite core without lottery picks.

Thornton was traded for with respect to the sharks.

Seguin isnt part of the Bruins core and I still cant believe they have no assets to show for it. Completely squandered an elite player.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
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Hahaha I know you're being sarcastic but I knew this was gonna come up.

The statement was build an elite core without lottery picks.

Thornton was traded for with respect to the sharks.

Seguin isnt part of the Bruins core and I still cant believe they have no assets to show for it. Completely squandered an elite player.

Chiarelli traded away the top 2 picks from the 2010 draft and the teams he traded them away from have pretty much nothing to show for it.
 

Krnuckfan

Registered User
Oct 11, 2006
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You choose to ignore everything again. Fine by me. Keep going....

I didn't ignore anything. You're sounding like a benning bro with the quality of your arguments. The entire conversation started when you said the following:

MadaCanuckle said:
Moreover, many people had Hughes taken at 3 or 4, and no one would imagine he would fall into 7

That is literal #fakenews and instead of conceding you're making weak excuses.

2018 NHL Draft Rankings

There's 18 prospect rankings on there. Out of those 18, 1 had hughes at 3 and 2 had hughes at 4. 3/18 isn't "many" as you said
9/18 rankings had Hughes taken at 7 or later. 9/18 is a far cry from "no one"

While you're right that some scouting services didn't list Hughes as the 2nd best defenseman in the draft, most did: 2018 NHL Draft Rankings

I agree he probably wasn't a consensus pick (like Tkachuk was in 2016), but he wasn't a reach either. He was part of a group of a few players who you could have made a solid argument for taking at 7.

There's 18 ranking lists on there (omitting NHL central scouting intl). Hughes is ranked as the #2 defender in 8 of those 18 lists. Dobson ranked as #2 defender in 1/18. Bouchard ranked as #2 defender in 4/18. Boquist ranked as #2 in 5/18. I agree that Hughes definitely wasn't a reach, but I don't think from those numbers it's clear cut that hughes was the consensus #2 defender.

Compared to another hotly debated pick of Juolevi over Tkachuk in 2016. When you look at the 2016 site out of the 14 rankings Tkachuk was ranked ahead of Juolevi in all 14 of them. Showing clear consensus and a reason why the juolevi pick was such a stupid pick.
 
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4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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If you believe @canuckfan75 has any insider info, he posted that Hughes was an Aquilini favourite and posted as much pre-draft last year. It was deleted by mods.
 

DFAC

Registered User
Jan 19, 2008
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Byram is the only defenseman worth drafting in the top 10.

I don't usually agree with you, but you are correct here. I would be peeved if we picked a dman not named Byram in the top 10

Just curious, what does your top 10 look like?
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
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Surrey, BC
I don't usually agree with you, but you are correct here. I would be peeved if we picked a dman not named Byram in the top 10

Just curious, what does your top 10 look like?

You don't usually agree with me? I guess you're one who thinks the GM who built the worst team in the NHL over the last 4 years has done a good job then? Or perhaps you just prefer being wrong on most of what you say? I've been right about the direction of this team for years now.

Anyway, to your question:

1. Jack Hughes
2. Kappo Kakko
3. Bowen Byram
4. Alex Turcotte
5. Dylan Cozens
6. Matthew Boldy
7. Kirby Dach
8. Peyton Krebs
9. Alex Newhook
10. Arthur Kaliyev

Honourable mention to Cole Caufield who is a pure sniper, but his size is questionable. Could be another Debrincat though.

Also, if Spencer Knight falls to us in the 2nd round I would absolutely jump on that. I like the idea of drafting a highly ranked goalie every two years until one of them has established as a long-term elite starter, and I don't think we're there yet with Demko or Dipietro.
 

MadaCanuckle

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Jun 25, 2012
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I didn't ignore anything. You're sounding like a benning bro with the quality of your arguments. The entire conversation started when you said the following:



That is literal #fakenews and instead of conceding you're making weak excuses.

2018 NHL Draft Rankings

There's 18 prospect rankings on there. Out of those 18, 1 had hughes at 3 and 2 had hughes at 4. 3/18 isn't "many" as you said
9/18 rankings had Hughes taken at 7 or later. 9/18 is a far cry from "no one"



There's 18 ranking lists on there (omitting NHL central scouting intl). Hughes is ranked as the #2 defender in 8 of those 18 lists. Dobson ranked as #2 defender in 1/18. Bouchard ranked as #2 defender in 4/18. Boquist ranked as #2 in 5/18. I agree that Hughes definitely wasn't a reach, but I don't think from those numbers it's clear cut that hughes was the consensus #2 defender.

Compared to another hotly debated pick of Juolevi over Tkachuk in 2016. When you look at the 2016 site out of the 14 rankings Tkachuk was ranked ahead of Juolevi in all 14 of them. Showing clear consensus and a reason why the juolevi pick was such a stupid pick.
I didn't ignore anything. You're sounding like a benning bro with the quality of your arguments. The entire conversation started when you said the following:



That is literal #fakenews and instead of conceding you're making weak excuses.

2018 NHL Draft Rankings

There's 18 prospect rankings on there. Out of those 18, 1 had hughes at 3 and 2 had hughes at 4. 3/18 isn't "many" as you said
9/18 rankings had Hughes taken at 7 or later. 9/18 is a far cry from "no one"



There's 18 ranking lists on there (omitting NHL central scouting intl). Hughes is ranked as the #2 defender in 8 of those 18 lists. Dobson ranked as #2 defender in 1/18. Bouchard ranked as #2 defender in 4/18. Boquist ranked as #2 in 5/18. I agree that Hughes definitely wasn't a reach, but I don't think from those numbers it's clear cut that hughes was the consensus #2 defender.

Compared to another hotly debated pick of Juolevi over Tkachuk in 2016. When you look at the 2016 site out of the 14 rankings Tkachuk was ranked ahead of Juolevi in all 14 of them. Showing clear consensus and a reason why the juolevi pick was such a stupid pick.


Did you see the dates on some of those rankings? They are not updated. For example, Pronman updates his ranking one week before the draft. Most of those rankings are from March and April. Please, before you use one non updated site, go to google and "update yourself" instead of insulting people.
 

mriswith

Registered User
Oct 12, 2011
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Any chance Benning uses all his contract slots on college free agents and only realizes that he's out of contract slots on July 1 and can't sign anyone?
 

tyhee

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Feb 5, 2015
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Do you forget that he had a youthful team in LA prior to them winning their cups? And then he actually went for it and made the necessary acquisitions to get them over that hump. LA always seemed to be in on every big name player who was available. And there’s a price to build that kind of team. They’re in a spot now where they need to rebuild. That’s fine. If we have to rebuild again after winning 2 cups, I’ll take it.

Sorry for the delay, I didn’t have time when I first saw your post, but as a result of it I've now taken a long look at the signings I've really disliked on the Kings, which resulted in my opinion of Lombardi improving.

Some of the higher salaries on the Kings were on contracts Lombardi negotiated before the Kings last won the Cup. For the most part they weren’t terrible contracts and, as you point out, they did put the Kings over the top.

Something I had missed was that some of the Kings' moves which I really think terrible were made after Lombardi was fired from the Kings. Those include:

-the trade for Dion Phaneuf

-the upcoming Drew Doughty contract.

I am a big fan of Doughty and consider him someone who has to be considered most years for the Norris, but I am not a fan of his upcoming contract nor do I think a bad Kings team is a good fit for that contract. I'd attributed that contract, incorrectly, to Lombardi. Similarly Phaneuf being with the Kings has nothing to do with Lombardi.

Imo the Matt Greene contract was a mistake, in that he was coming off an injury-plagued season when he was last extended. It's not very big in the grand scheme of things and I don't have a vivid memory of the circumstances of his injuries.

Most fans probably liked the Kopitar contract. I'm not among them. Kopitar is also someone I’ve been a huge fan of and was really disappointed the Canucks didn’t draft him when I thought he was the completely obvious choice. His current contract was negotiated with Lombardi a year and a half after the Kings last won the Cup, during which the Kings had missed the playoffs one season and would eventually lose in the first round in the season of the signing. The Kings were still pretty good those two seasons, though, 95 and 102 points respectively. The contract pays him $10 million per season through the age of 36.

They've been worse since the contract was signed and Kopitar has really only been worth his contract in one of the following three seasons.

I dislike the Kopitar contract, but it is hard to find too much fault with a GM when the worst I can really say is that he committed too much and too long to his best forward as the player was coming out of the usual prime age AFTER winning two Cups with him, while his team still looked pretty good and while the player was still among the best on the team, he must have done pretty well.
 
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AwesomeInTheory

A Christmas miracle
Aug 21, 2015
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Is it Benning's fault that Gillis left him the most injury prone top pairing in the league?

But Gillis.

It's pretty incredible that we're here today with an exciting group of extremely talented extremely young and extremely high character guys who are poised to lead the next iteration of the Vancouver Canucks to glory.

It really is when you look at Benning's entire track record in terms of what assets he has bothered to obtain and how they've panned out.

For every Boeser there's Linden Vey, Brandon Prust, Adam Clendening, Brandon Sutter, Luca Sbisa, Olli Juolevi, etc.

Whether he stays or not we will be watching the Jim Benning Canucks for the next 10-15+ years because he built this new core with his vision of how the team should play.

What, precisely, is this 'new core'?

With speed, with skill, with smarts.

You're saying we should be thankful it only took Benning 4-5 years to figure out where the rest of the league was going? Awesome.
 
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AwesomeInTheory

A Christmas miracle
Aug 21, 2015
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Also Steamer isn’t a bad keep, the guy has more year in this organization than basically anyone and has never really been proven to be bad at his job.

He was horrible as our amateur league coach, if we're looking at his entire body of work.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
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Surrey, BC
Sorry for the delay, I didn’t have time when I first saw your post, but as a result of I've now taken a long look at the signings I've really disliked on the Kings, which resulted in my opinion of Lombardi improving.

Some of the higher salaries on the Kings were on contracts Lombardi negotiated before the Kings last won the Cup. For the most part they weren’t terrible contracts and, as you point out, they did put the Kings over the top.

Something I had missed was that some of the Kings' moves which I really think terrible were made after Lombardi was fired from the Kings. Those include:

-the trade for Dion Phaneuf

-the upcoming Drew Doughty contract.

I am a big fan of Doughty and consider him someone who has to be considered most years for the Norris, but I am not a fan of his upcoming contract nor do I think a bad Kings team is a good fit for that contract. I'd attributed that contract, incorrectly, to Lombardi. Similarly Phaneuf being with the Kings has nothing to do with Lombardi.

Imo the Matt Greene contract was a mistake, in that he was coming off an injury-plagued season when he was last extended. It's not very big in the grand scheme of things and I don't have a vivid memory of the circumstances of his injuries.

Most fans probably liked the Kopitar contract. I'm not among them. Kopitar is also someone I’ve been a huge fan of and was really disappointed the Canucks didn’t draft him when I thought he was the completely obvious choice. His current contract was negotiated with Lombardi a year and a half after the Kings last won the Cup, during which the Kings had missed the playoffs one season and would eventually lose in the first round in the season of the signing. The Kings were still pretty good those two seasons, though, 95 and 102 points respectively. The contract pays him $10 million per season through the age of 36.

They've been worse since the contract was signed and Kopitar has really only been worth his contract in one of the following three seasons.

I dislike the Kopitar contract, but it is hard to find too much fault with a GM when the worst I can really say is that he committed too much and too long to his best forward as the player was coming out of the usual prime age AFTER winning two Cups with him, while his team still looked pretty good and while the player was still among the best on the team, he must have done pretty well.

Nice response.

Regarding the Kopitar contract, I would argue it's similar to the Sedins situation where he's a career King, he's been their best player (or at least best forward) for a decade when he signed the contract, and he was still 29 when it was signed. They couldn't just let him walk.

The Greene contract, I'll give you that. At least it was only $2.5M so it wasn't too egregious, but it wasn't a good contract.

The Kings were a playoff team last year though, and expected to be one this year which is why they signed Kovalchuk. In hindsight, trading Doughty for some nice futures would have been the ideal move. But yeah, looking at what Lombardi did in LA I really don't have many complaints.
 

Krnuckfan

Registered User
Oct 11, 2006
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Did you see the dates on some of those rankings? They are not updated. For example, Pronman updates his ranking one week before the draft. Most of those rankings are from March and April. Please, before you use one non updated site, go to google and "update yourself" instead of insulting people.

Pronman's rankings on that site are exactly the same as Pronman's rankings from here:

Pronman's 2018 NHL draft rankings: Top 74 prospects

which was updated in June.

6 out of 18 of those prospects lists were from march and april. I suggest you go to google and "update yourself" on some basic vocab because I don't think you understand what "most" means.

Let's look a those 6:
Sam cosentino sportsnet
Bob mckenzie tsn
Steve Kourianos sporting news
NHL central scouting
Jeff Marek Sportsnet
Peter Harling Dobberprospects

Out of those 6, the central scouting list, Jeff Marek's list, Cosentino's list from April IS the final list. Cosentino released a mock draft article in June which had Hughes going at #8

So now only 3/18 lists were outdated lists.

TSN's final list in June has hughes at 8 in april he was at 9
https://www.tsn.ca/kc-1.1115400

Sporting news final list in June has hughes at 10, in April he was at 10
NHL Draft big board: Final rankings of top 100 prospects in 2018 class

Peter Harling's final list in June has Hughes at 6, in April he was at 8
Prospect Ramblings from the Draft – Peter Harling Final top 31 Draft Ranking


So to recap, even looking at updated lists, none of the new lists had hughes being taken at 3/4 and he was still ranked 7th or later in 2/3 of the new updated rankings.
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
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Pronman's rankings on that site are exactly the same as Pronman's rankings from here:

Pronman's 2018 NHL draft rankings: Top 74 prospects

which was updated in June.

6 out of 18 of those prospects lists were from march and april. I suggest you go to google and "update yourself" on some basic vocab because I don't think you understand what "most" means.

Let's look a those 6:
Sam cosentino sportsnet
Bob mckenzie tsn
Steve Kourianos sporting news
NHL central scouting
Jeff Marek Sportsnet
Peter Harling Dobberprospects

Out of those 6, the central scouting list, Jeff Marek's list, Cosentino's list from April IS the final list. Cosentino released a mock draft article in June which had Hughes going at #8

So now only 3/18 lists were outdated lists.

TSN's final list in June has hughes at 8 in april he was at 9
https://www.tsn.ca/kc-1.1115400

Sporting news final list in June has hughes at 10, in April he was at 10
NHL Draft big board: Final rankings of top 100 prospects in 2018 class

Peter Harling's final list in June has Hughes at 6, in April he was at 8
Prospect Ramblings from the Draft – Peter Harling Final top 31 Draft Ranking


So to recap, even looking at updated lists, none of the new lists had hughes being taken at 3/4 and he was still ranked 7th or later in 2/3 of the new updated rankings.


Open your 2 links: Pronman's on the draft rankings are from May 21, and link from TheAthetic, June 7. Scott Wheeler did a new list on June 5. Something does not add up, and since it's 2 am here, tomorrow i will deal list by list. And if you don't understand the difference between "most" and "many", better google it up.
 

Krnuckfan

Registered User
Oct 11, 2006
1,794
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Open your 2 links: Pronman's on the draft rankings are from May 21, and link from TheAthetic, June 7. Scott Wheeler did a new list on June 5. Something does not add up, and since it's 2 am here, tomorrow i will deal list by list. And if you don't understand the difference between "most" and "many", better google it up.

First off, you didn't say "many" you said "most"

Even though it says May 21st on mynhldraft the list of players itself matches 100% with the June 7 list on the athletic.

Scott Wheeler's final list was in May 8, as it shows on mynhldraft.

"Today, after, in some cases, three years watching these players, I release my final top-100."
Wheeler: Final ranking for the 2018 NHL draft's top 100...

Regardless, this is just pure semantics at this point.
 

Hansen

tyler motte simp
Oct 12, 2011
23,710
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I mean we were entirely aware that there is absolutely no meritocracy to our lineup decisions already but how absolutely embarrassing to see it put so obtusely
 
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