18/19 MGMT Thread XI. We're totally rebuilding! LalalaIcan'thearyoulalala...!

[ProstheticConscience]

^^^Sent Benning to a computer class to hopefully get him interested in a new career. No luck so far.

Continue.

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[Zombotron]

It'd be nice if this was the last one. I'll be saying the same thing next year.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I can’t believe people are still clinging to the idea that the team isn’t rebuilding despite it being thoroughly debunked and ripped to shreds on the Canucks subreddit. It’s like denying climate change.

 

[Black Noise]

I can’t believe people are still clinging to the idea that the team isn’t rebuilding despite it being thoroughly debunked and ripped to shreds on the Canucks subreddit. It’s like denying climate change.

Exactly! Denying the Canucks are rebuilding is like denying Voynov assaulted his wife.

 

[Addison Rae]

The Vancouver Canucks “rebuilding moves””

Bieksa for a 2nd
(moved the 2nd in a deal for Brandon Sutter)

Alex Burrows for Jonathan Dahlen
Moved Dahlen for a mediocre prospect

Jason Garrison for a 2nd
Moved the 2nd for Linden Vey

Del Zotto for a 7th
Del Zotto gets traded for a 6th weeks later

Jannik Hansen for Nikolai Goldobin
Goldobin routine healthy scratch.

What a rebuild, wow

 

[ErrantShepherd]

Exactly! Denying the Canucks are rebuilding is like denying Voynov assaulted his wife.

Please stop missing the point of an argument you disagree with by referencing real life tragedies. It devaluates very serious issues outside this bubble for cheap internet points.

 

[TruKnyte]

I can’t believe people are still clinging to the idea that the team isn’t rebuilding despite it being thoroughly debunked and ripped to shreds on the Canucks subreddit. It’s like denying climate change.

I don't know if the Canucks subreddit is exactly the best source for information or analysis. Most of it is shitposts and memes.

 

[Black Noise]

Think this tweet says enough:

 

[Addison Rae]

That's horrific to look at, wow.

 

[Addison Rae]

So if I'm reading that right, despite being the worst team in the NHL over the past 4 years the highest pick this administation has traded for who's still on the roster is a mid 3rd rounder in Brisebois.

Oh my god.

 

[clunk]

Beyond disgusting. How anyone can support this is just baffling.

 

[pgj98m3]

Exactly! Denying the Canucks are rebuilding is like denying Voynov assaulted his wife.

Okay I’ll give you “a rebuild” but even you must concede it’s been a crap rebuild so far.

 

[Bubbles]

There was a never a "true" rebuild. And to be honest, there could never be one until the Sedins were gone. So instead we have 4-5 years of a middling re-tooling on the fly that has ended in failure.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The Vancouver Canucks “rebuilding moves””

Bieksa for a 2nd
(moved the 2nd in a deal for Brandon Sutter)

Alex Burrows for Jonathan Dahlen
Moved Dahlen for a mediocre prospect

Jason Garrison for a 2nd
Moved the 2nd for Linden Vey

Del Zotto for a 7th
Del Zotto gets traded for a 6th weeks later

Jannik Hansen for Nikolai Goldobin
Goldobin routine healthy scratch.

What a rebuild, wow

Trades promising prospect Forsling coming off hot WJC performance for bust Clendening.
Clendening can't skate.

Trades 33rd overall (DeBrincat, Hart, and Girard all available) and McCann for RealGud.
Gudbranson can't skate.

Trades 5th round pick for Larsen.
Larsen can't play hockey.

Trades 4th round pick for Pouliot.
Pouliot can't play hockey.

Trades Kassian + 5th for Brandon freakin Prust.
Prust really can't play hockey.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Ah, I see what's causing confusion. When I say the word "rebuild", I took it to mean the team was actually built into something good. You know, if an apartment block is wiped out by a tornado and someone comes along and pisses all over the rubble, you don't say the apartment block was rebuilt into a urinal, do you.

 

[clunk]

The only players I've liked that JB has brought in (not including draft picks)

Roussel, Motte, Baertschi, Leivo, Stecher, Dorsett, Bonino.

What is that? 3 top 6/top 4 players? Maybe 4? (Being very generous)

This is over a 5 year span. Really not good. Mostly been grinders and tweeners.

 

[me2]

Ah, I see what's causing confusion. When I say the word "rebuild", I took it to mean the team was actually built into something good. You know, if an apartment block is wiped out by a tornado and someone comes along and pisses all over the rubble, you don't say the apartment block was rebuilt into a urinal, do you.

It is more like you just push the rubble back into a pile and dug a cave out of one side. It is all there and you can live inside it, what more do you want.

 

[me2]

Exactly! Denying the Canucks are rebuilding is like denying Voynov assaulted his wife.

Can you tell me how the canucks are different from a team with really bad management that is trying to win but just plain sucks at their jobs? Badly run teams get top 10 picks, so that isn't an example of a rebuild.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Can you tell me how the canucks are different from a team with really bad management that is trying to win but just plain sucks at their jobs? Badly run teams get top 10 picks, so that isn't an example of a rebuild.

If they were trying to win and/or make the playoffs, 1st round picks would have been moved To make a playoff push. Not rumours.....it would have happened already.

Guys like Stamkos and Tavares would have been offered the maximum AAV allowed.

 

[Askel]

I can’t believe people are still clinging to the idea that the team isn’t rebuilding despite it being thoroughly debunked and ripped to shreds on the Canucks subreddit. It’s like denying climate change.

Signing aging players to 4 year deals is not re-building moves. How many top 100 draft picks has the Canucks acquired during Bennings tenure. Detroit has 5 extra in the next three drafts, Ottawa has at least eight but picks doesn't matter right. Less picks are better so Benning can focus really hard.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Trades promising prospect Forsling coming off hot WJC performance for bust Clendening.
Clendening can't skate.

Promising? Could have fooled me.

Gustav Forsling Stats and News

Trades 33rd overall (DeBrincat, Hart, and Girard all available) and McCann for RealGud.
Gudbranson can't skate.

Agreed that Gudbranson was the WRONG player to target, but we had absolutely ZERO on our right side D outside of Tanev. It was Tanev, and then a bunch of 6th and 7th dmen. So - yeah....the Canucks absolutely needed to trade for a young defenseman that could step into a top 4 role. Unfortunately, Gudbranson was NOT the correct answer and that’s on Benning and Pro Scouting. What was crazy at this time, was that posters on here were arguing that we trade Tanev since Tanev’s value was sky high. that is not how a rebuild works.

Rebuilding entails protecting your prospects and young players just as much as it means acquiring picks and prospects.

Young players in our line-up at that time (if I recall correctly) were Horvat, Baertschi, Hutton, Stecher, and Markstrom (I might be wrong here....too lazy to look up). The point is this: IF you completely sabotage your depth (ie trade Tanev for a 1st, and don’t trade for a young RHD), then you risk putting your current young players into positions that they are far too green for. That’s how you damage young players. That’s how you ruin the confidence of young players.

So yeah - while not trading for Gudbranson + trading Chris Tanev would have resulted in more picks today, the fact of the matter is that guys like Hutton, Stecher, Markstrom, [young guy] would have been placed in positions to fail.

It would have been the classic case of trying to fill a leaking bucket with water.

For all the flack that Benning gets on here, one often overlooked fact is that many of our young guys on the team successfully grew their games and were salavaged......despite our multiple losing seasons (which is normal for a rebuilding process). Guys like Horvat, Markstrom, Stecher, Hutton, and Gaudette all have taken solid leaps in their games. Even guys like Baertschi and Virtanen have grown during their time here....maybe not to the extent that we want, but growth nonetheless. What more can I see about Pettersson and Boeser that hasn’t already been said? Leivo looks fairly decent as well.

A rebuild involves two things:

1) Draft pick accumulation (which all of you definitely understand).

2) protecting the current young players in your system and placing them into roles that will push them, but not over exert them (which for whatever reason, I believe is a concept that many people struggle with on here).

You can only do #1 if #2 isn’t effected.

And again - I hate to make this a “but Gillis!” argument, but IF the previous regime had even been remotely competent in assembling a prospect pool, then yes......I believe more vets would have been moved for picks because the young guys within the system would have been able to fill those roles at around 80-90% efficiency of said vet being replaced (which is what one part of rebuilding is about). Unfortunately, we didn’t have that.......and so this regime was forced to trade 2nd’s for 20-23 year old reclamation projects that could perhaps fill those shoes (while simultaneously trying to trade Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, etc., for some kind of salvageable value).

Trades 5th round pick for Larsen.
Larsen can't play hockey.

Trades 4th round pick for Pouliot.
Pouliot can't play hockey.

I won’t deny that our Pro Scouting is terrible. It is. If Benning ends up getting fired, it will be because of moves like this.

Trades Kassian + 5th for Brandon freakin Prust.
Prust really can't play hockey.

Kassian is And was a nice guy but he had his demons. Unfortunately, you don’t want impressionable young players around these types of guys. It sounds cold, but it’s the truth.

Brendan Gaunce wasn’t quite ready for the NHL. If Gaunce at that time was around 85-90% ready, then his presence on the 4th line could have been justified, but he still needed time in the minors.

The Canucks also needed more toughness, and needed someone to take pressure off of Dorsett.

The motivation and thought process behind making this kind of trade was sound. I actually thought Prust would be a good fit here. Unfortunately, things didn’t work out. I’m not even sure If this was a gaffe by Pro Scouting. Up until his stint in Vancouver, Prust was known as a non selfish team first guy. Unfortunately, after his ankle injury here, he couldn’t get back on track......and he acted like a child when he was rightfully benched.

 

[rypper]

If they were trying to win and/or make the playoffs, 1st round picks would have been moved To make a playoff push. Not rumours.....it would have happened already.

Guys like Stamkos and Tavares would have been offered the maximum AAV allowed.

They did try to trade multiple first round picks (Subban, Lucic etc) and were looking at offering Tavares big money sooooo they just failed at that but the intent was there.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Promising? Could have fooled me.

Gustav Forsling Stats and News



Agreed that Gudbranson was the WRONG player to target, but we had absolutely ZERO on our right side D outside of Tanev. It was Tanev, and then a bunch of 6th and 7th dmen. So - yeah....the Canucks absolutely needed to trade for a young defenseman that could step into a top 4 role. Unfortunately, Gudbranson was NOT the correct answer and that’s on Benning and Pro Scouting. What was crazy at this time, was that posters on here were arguing that we trade Tanev since Tanev’s value was sky high. that is not how a rebuild works.

Rebuilding entails protecting your prospects and young players just as much as it means acquiring picks and prospects.

Young players in our line-up at that time (if I recall correctly) were Horvat, Baertschi, Hutton, Stecher, and Markstrom (I might be wrong here....too lazy to look up). The point is this: IF you completely sabotage your depth (ie trade Tanev for a 1st, and don’t trade for a young RHD), then you risk putting your current young players into positions that they are far too green for. That’s how you damage young players. That’s how you ruin the confidence of young players.

So yeah - while not trading for Gudbranson + trading Chris Tanev would have resulted in more picks today, the fact of the matter is that guys like Hutton, Stecher, Markstrom, [young guy] would have been placed in positions to fail.

It would have been the classic case of trying to fill a leaking bucket with water.

For all the flack that Benning gets on here, one often overlooked fact is that many of our young guys on the team successfully grew their games and were salavaged......despite our multiple losing seasons (which is normal for a rebuilding process). Guys like Horvat, Markstrom, Stecher, Hutton, and Gaudette all have taken solid leaps in their games. Even guys like Baertschi and Virtanen have grown during their time here....maybe not to the extent that we want, but growth nonetheless. What more can I see about Pettersson and Boeser that hasn’t already been said? Leivo looks fairly decent as well.

A rebuild involves two things:

1) Draft pick accumulation (which all of you definitely understand).

2) protecting the current young players in your system and placing them into roles that will push them, but not over exert them (which for whatever reason, I believe is a concept that many people struggle with on here).

You can only do #1 if #2 isn’t effected.

And again - I hate to make this a “but Gillis!” argument, but IF the previous regime had even been remotely competent in assembling a prospect pool, then yes......I believe more vets would have been moved for picks because the young guys within the system would have been able to fill those roles at around 80-90% efficiency of said vet being replaced (which is what one part of rebuilding is about). Unfortunately, we didn’t have that.......and so this regime was forced to trade 2nd’s for 20-23 year old reclamation projects that could perhaps fill those shoes (while simultaneously trying to trade Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, etc., for some kind of salvageable value).



I won’t deny that our Pro Scouting is terrible. It is. If Benning ends up getting fired, it will be because of moves like this.



Kassian is And was a nice guy but he had his demons. Unfortunately, you don’t want impressionable young players around these types of guys. It sounds cold, but it’s the truth.

Brendan Gaunce wasn’t quite ready for the NHL. If Gaunce at that time was around 85-90% ready, then his presence on the 4th line could have been justified, but he still needed time in the minors.

The Canucks also needed more toughness, and needed someone to take pressure off of Dorsett.

The motivation and thought process behind making this kind of trade was sound. I actually thought Prust would be a good fit here. Unfortunately, things didn’t work out. I’m not even sure If this was a gaffe by Pro Scouting. Up until his stint in Vancouver, Prust was known as a non selfish team first guy. Unfortunately, after his ankle injury here, he couldn’t get back on track......and he acted like a child when he was rightfully benched.

Stellar post. Agree with everything here except the part about 4th and 5th round picks for Pouliot and Larsen being examples of bad pro scouting or reasons why Benning would be fired. A 4th/5th is basically the definition minimal trade value. The fact that we only had to pay minimal value for them meant nobody expected them to be great players. Built into those trades were the notion that “yes these players have had significant flaws in their games but we think we have a chance to help the player grow beyond his flaws.”

What matters about pro-scouting is identifying upside more than downsides because a confident coaching staff will look at the downsides and say “I can work with him and have a chance to fix that”

And the upside in Larsen was undeniable. He was a good puck mover, just too weak and small. Give him a few inches and 20 pounds and he’s an NHL regular today.

Pouliot, for all his mistakes, had undeniable offensive talent when he possesss the confidence to show it.

Circling back, I find it utterly ridiculous that 4th and 5th round picks are defining some people’s opinion of Benning. No one should care about them. They represent a minuscule chance at ever getting an NHL player.

 

[Peter10]

Circling back, I find it utterly ridiculous that 4th and 5th round picks are defining some people’s opinion of Benning. No one should care about them. They represent a minuscule chance at ever getting an NHL player.

Oh dont worry, even if not considering those 4th and 5th round picks Benning is still an absolute terrible GM who should have been fired years ago.

 

[y2kcanucks]

So I think we're all in agreement that the Canucks are not rebuilding, I guess we can then look at the results of what Benning has done here and easily determine he has done a very poor job with this team. As such, he should be fired immediately. Glad we're all finally on the same page now.