18/19 MGMT thread VIII

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Melvin

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I bet POM ignores this like most posts he can’t argue against.


But oh yea here are other franchise players that were taken at 5 off the top of my head so to say it never happens is false news.
Vanek
Price
Wheeler
Kessel
Jagr
Guerin
Scott Stevens
Barrasso

You could probably add Matthew tkachuk here if benning hadn’t been an idiot

I mean, there's no logical reason not to include players who were drafted after 5,of which there is a plethora. There is nothing magical about the fifth position, anyone drafted later would have obviously been available at 5.

You guys need to stop letting him steer the conversation to drafting though. It's so tiresome and irrelevant.
 

xtra

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Saying there is no guarantee is not the same as saying that you could never find a franchise player at 5....?.(nice try)..Out of that list only Price,Jagr,and maybe Stevens are 'franchise' players.

Maybe Scott Stevens? What are you 5 and never seen him play?

Tom barrasso is a borderline HOF goalie and he doesn’t count?

Guerin - 4 time all star not a franchise player?

Vanek - 43 -36-40 goal season wasn’t a franchise player then?

Phil kessel was a franchise player also. He’s not the franchise player anymore but don’t kid yourself on how good he was

https://thehockeywriters.com/trading-phil-kessel/

There’s an article about how he is a franchise player.

Did you miss the first part of my post where I pointed out how you would avoid Melvin’s post as you couldn’t refute it?
 

xtra

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I mean, there's no logical reason not to include players who were drafted after 5,of which there is a plethora. There is nothing magical about the fifth position, anyone drafted later would have obviously been available at 5.

Oh yes that would be too logical which we know the benning bros can’t handle but they love their point of no one gets franchise players at 5
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Maybe Scott Stevens? What are you 5 and never seen him play?

Tom barrasso is a borderline HOF goalie and he doesn’t count?

Guerin - 4 time all star not a franchise player?

Vanek - 43 -36-40 goal season wasn’t a franchise player then?

Phil kessel was a franchise player also. He’s not the franchise player anymore but don’t kid yourself on how good he was

https://thehockeywriters.com/trading-phil-kessel/

There’s an article about how he is a franchise player.

Did you miss the first part of my post where I pointed out how you would avoid Melvin’s post as you couldn’t refute it?
You obviously have a very different idea of a franchise player than I do...From the Canucks,I would say there have been only 3 in the last decade ..Luongo and the Sedins...and EP if he continues on his trajectory.
 

Hodgy

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Yes ,he has improved the team..Most notably by targeting EP in the draft...A lot of posters are moaning about that we should have taken Tkachuk instead of OJ..What if we had taken Cody glass instead of EP.?..JB has improved the team by hiring a great coach in Green..also making Brackett the head of DOS...He has identified the right people for the job...When this happens positive results will happen.

Again, you are really not grasping the idea of reasonable baselines. How many top picks should it take until you find a great player like Pettersson. Moreover, and as others have said, how much credit can actually be given to Benning for drafting him? There absolutely is an element of luck in draft, and by almost all accounts, Makar was Benning's guy.

Even when you go to the main boards ,other posters from different fanbases are very complimentary on where this team is going..On HF Van, any positive posts (about anything) are immediately pounced on, and turned into a negative...It does not have to be a cheerleader site, but come on..

It's funny that you keep on characterizing posters that are critical of Benning as being "negative". By almost all objective results, Jim Benning has been terrible here. But yet posters that are critical of him are being negative? How does that make any sense? Arn't those posters just being realistic? Given Benning's objective terrible results, isn't any poster that isn't critical of Benning overly optimistic at best, and delusional at worst?

The baseline for Jim Benning are going to the results...Not interested in Melvins Potato results (this is the poster that predicted the Canucks would go winless in October,and the GM fired mid January)...The results are, we are a game above .500,and are in the group of teams in the hunt for a wild card spot...The team is young, fun to watch.,and have a Calder favourite leading the way...For a team that was projected bottom 3....this is progress..and progress is results.

I honestly think you don't understand the point I am making. You seem to not understand the idea of a reasonable baseline, so perhaps it isn't surprising that you evaluation of Jim Benning is nonsensical. Also, what does Melvin's opinion based projects have to do with his objective statical analysis of drafting. Oh ya, nothing.
 

xtra

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You obviously have a very different idea of a franchise player than I do...From the Canucks,I would say there have been only 3 in the last decade ..Luongo and the Sedins...and EP if he continues on his trajectory.

Yea, you obviously don’t watch hockey if you don’t think Scott Stevens wasn’t a franchise player
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Again, you are really not grasping the idea of reasonable baselines. How many top picks should it take until you find a great player like Pettersson. Moreover, and as others have said, how much credit can actually be given to Benning for drafting him? There absolutely is an element of luck in draft, and by almost all accounts, Makar was Benning's guy.



It's funny that you keep on characterizing posters that are critical of Benning as being "negative". By almost all objective results, Jim Benning has been terrible here. But yet posters that are critical of him are being negative? How does that make any sense? Arn't those posters just being realistic? Given Benning's objective terrible results, isn't any poster that isn't critical of Benning overly optimistic at best, and delusional at worst?



I honestly think you don't understand the point I am making. You seem to not understand the idea of a reasonable baseline, so perhaps it isn't surprising that you evaluation of Jim Benning is nonsensical. Also, what does Melvin's opinion based projects have to do with his objective statical analysis of drafting. Oh ya, nothing.
Do you have a source that Makar was Bennings guy?...While that 'may'be possible, their #1 forward pick was EP..there was no fluke there (credit to the scouting staff for selecting him...EP wasn't my first choice..or yours either I bet)..and Benning,for putting together a good scouting staff.

They are negative posters...anything remotely positive is shouted down into negative...I find the Benning negativity to be unrealistic ( although in 2016 I could see posters reasoning for it)....The results have been bad the last 3 seasons (precisely what they should have been).
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Yea, you obviously don’t watch hockey if you don’t think Scott Stevens wasn’t a franchise player
I said maybe did I not?..I'd say Martin Broduer and Scott Niedermayer were more franchise than Stevens..Barraso,Guerin,Kessel are not franchise players.
 

Pip

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Who cares about who was picked at 5th overall.

The real problem is that after 5 years of Benning there isn't player brought in worth a damn that wasn't a first round pick. That's after moving out a boatload of assets and spending near the cap most years. Best we got is an injury-prone second liner, a reclamation project from Toronto, and a Russian that struggles to get into the lineup. That's f***ing pathetic management. Don't @ me with a bunch of players not currently in the NHL either, we've all heard that story before.
 

xtra

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I said maybe did I not?..I'd say Martin Broduer and Scott Niedermayer were more franchise than Stevens..Barraso,Guerin,Kessel are not franchise players.

Ok so until pettersson passes what kessel/guerin have done in their careers you can’t label pettersson as a franchise player.

Right now he’s had half an injury plagued season in the nhl so therefore benning hasn’t done anything of value
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Ok so until pettersson passes what kessel/guerin have done in their careers you can’t label pettersson as a franchise player.

Right now he’s had half an injury plagued season in the nhl so therefore benning hasn’t done anything of value
A franchise player is the next tier down from a generational player..then there is elite at the next level

No ..EP does not have to pass those players to become franchise ,but he would have to maintain his scoring clip of an ultimate 1C...and lead his squad to bigger things
 

xtra

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A franchise player is the next tier down from a generational player..then there is elite at the next level

No ..EP does not have to pass those players to become franchise ,but he would have to maintain his scoring clip of an ultimate 1C...and lead his squad to bigger things

Ok so we have established that ep isn’t a franchise player which means he’s a 1c and most of us agree that horvat can be a 1c also.

So let’s circle back to benning a performance- does the fact that in 5 years benning has provided basically the same to this team and it’s future (or less even) than what Gillis has provided us 5 years ago in horvat while trying to rebuild?
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Ok so we have established that ep isn’t a franchise player which means he’s a 1c and most of us agree that horvat can be a 1c also.

So let’s circle back to benning a performance- does the fact that in 5 years benning has provided basically the same to this team and it’s future (or less even) than what Gillis has provided us 5 years ago in horvat while trying to rebuild?
Virtanen,Boeser,Demko,Gaudette, Pettersson,Stecher....(Hughes,Juolevi)..in 5 drafts
Horvat,Hutton.,Tanev,Gaunce....in 6 drafts

Not sure I would consider Horvat a true top 1C...
 

Pip

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I mean comparing the drafting records or two GMs where one has been rebuilding and one has been competing seems stupid right? Same with claiming some sort of win in outdrafting (even ignoring context) a GM with a terrible drafting record but, at the very least, PoM is using some sort of baseline I guess?
 

xtra

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Virtanen,Boeser,Demko,Gaudette, Pettersson,Stecher....(Hughes,Juolevi)..in 5 drafts
Horvat,Hutton.,Tanev,Gaunce....in 6 drafts

Not sure I would consider Horvat a true top 1C...
Average draft position?

Connauton and Hodgkin is missing fro your list unless your saying only players on this roster, but even still for a draft genius drafting at average pick (9??) in the first round compared to what Gillis has picked benning hasn’t done a good job.

In regards to horvat you also have Scott Stevens (1999 conn smythe winner and first ballot hall of famer) as a maybe franchise player which is one of the dumbest tales I’ve ever heard on this board so I question your evaluation skills quite a bit.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Average draft position?

Connauton and Hodgkin is missing fro your list unless your saying only players on this roster, but even still for a draft genius drafting at average pick (9??) in the first round compared to what Gillis has picked benning hasn’t done a good job.

In regards to horvat you also have Scott Stevens (1999 conn smythe winner and first ballot hall of famer) as a maybe franchise player which is one of the dumbest tales I’ve ever heard on this board so I question your evaluation skills quite a bit.
Schroeder,Hodgson,Shinkaruk,Gaunce,Jensen..there's few blown 1st rounders there..

You think Thomas Vanek:laugh:,Barraso,and Guerin and Phil Kessel are franchise players.?..I'm quite a bit more sceptical of your evaluation skills quite honestly.
 

xtra

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Schroeder,Hodgson,Shinkaruk,Gaunce,Jensen..there's few blown 1st rounders there..

You think Thomas Vanek:laugh:,Barraso,and Guerin and Phil Kessel are franchise players.?..I'm quite a bit more sceptical of your evaluation skills quite honestly.

I said they were at one point obviously as their career changed their roles changed. It you know a guy that is 7th in the league in scoring isnt a franchise player, vanek I give you is debatable but at the time of the oilers offersheet he sure was.

Tom barrasso the guy with a Calder, Vezina, Jennings and 2 Stanley cups and border line hall of gamer wasn’t a franchise player.

What’s your definition of a franchise player? Crosby level? Cause then there are only like 8 franchise players ever
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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I said they were at one point obviously as their career changed their roles changed. It you know a guy that is 7th in the league in scoring isnt a franchise player, vanek I give you is debatable but at the time of the oilers offersheet he sure was.

Tom barrasso the guy with a Calder, Vezina, Jennings and 2 Stanley cups and border line hall of gamer wasn’t a franchise player.

What’s your definition of a franchise player? Crosby level? Cause then there are only like 8 franchise players ever
Franchise players ..Sedins,Sundin,Matthews,Sakic,Lidstrom,Ovechkin,Doughty,etc..(a player who is a catalyst to build your team around, and who is the elite of the elite)

Generational players...Orr,Gretzky,.....to a lesser extent...Lemeuix,McDavid,Crosby
 
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slovakia18

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Franchise players ..Sedins,Sundin,Matthews,Sakic,Lidstrom,Ovechkin,Doughty,etc..(a player who is a catalyst to build your team around, and who is the elite of the elite)

Generational players...Orr,Gretzky,.....to a lesser extent...Lemeuix,McDavid,Crosby
Vanek lead the Sabres in Goals 5 seasons off 8,
4 time in points.
2008 he lead the League with most Hattricks, lead the League 2007 in +/- 2009 with 20 Power Play Goals.
Was until 2013 the Leader in PenaltyShots in % all time.
With 5 trys he still is.
He was a franchise Player, kessel with toronto the same.
 
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F A N

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I think "Franchise Player" is a loose term that means a player that the team is building around. In the case of say Vanek in his early days in Buffalo, I think he was a franchise player. The same with Kessel in Toronto.
 
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Bleach Clean

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Drating is not. ****ing. Hard.

Every year there is a shortlist of players from which to choose. If you throw a ****ing dart every year you will eventually get one. It's the easiest thing in the ****ing world.


The conversation has predictably veered towards drafting because it's the only area where Benning can be shown to be average. It's only one aspect of management though.

PoM has outlined 50 games of play and the drafting of EP and BB as his main arguments for viewing Benning as an average GM. That baseline is absurd. It ignores 3 years of the worst team play, which he says was necessary (what?). It also ignores Benning's larger body of work for trades and signings.
 
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