Goaltenders who started as skaters

[Iain Fyffe]

A relatively little-known fact about Percy LeSueur is that he started his senior hockey career as a foward. In 1900/01 he played one game for Quebec, and scored a goal. In intermediate and lower hockey, he played with Art Leader in goal, who became a defenceman in senior hockey.

Can anyone think of other examples of a player switching from skater to goaltender like this? I don't mean skaters who played goal on an emergency basis, but someone who played high-level hockey as a skater, and then switched full time to goal.

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[Killion]

Not in recent history that Im aware of. Plenty of them started as skaters in Tyke, Atom, Pee Wee & so on then moved into the crease. Roberto Luongo for example. Played out from 8-11.

 

[sr edler]

No, but Zion Runions apparently started as a goalie and then played as a winger for the Cornwall Hockey Club & two games for the Toronto Professionals. He was in the infamous game, as a skater, between Cornwall & the Ottawa Victorias in 1907 that saw the death of his teammate Bud McCourt.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Not in recent history that Im aware of. Plenty of them started as skaters in Tyke, Atom, Pee Wee & so on then moved into the crease. Roberto Luongo for example. Played out from 8-11.

Well, yes. I'm sure a good proportion of goalies have played defence or forward at some point in their lives, which is why I restricted it to senior-level hockey.

No, but Zion Runions apparently started as a goalie and then played as a winger for the Cornwall Hockey Club & two games for the Toronto Professionals. He was in the infamous game, as a skater, between Cornwall & the Ottawa Victorias in 1907 that saw the death of his teammate Bud McCourt.

I don't know anything about his pre-FAHL career unfortunately. His only senior game in 1905/06 was as a goalie, and in subsequent years he was a skater, but I don't know if that first game as goalie might have been on a emergency basis. So at this point can't be sure if he would be included.

 

[Sanf]

Montreal Victoria goaltender from 1908 season called Robinson changed from cover point to goalie year before, but that happened in intermediates . Not a very memorable career in big league. Only one season and even his first name seem to be unknown.

mentioned in this article
The Montreal Gazette - Jan 4, 1908
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=i3YuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=44QFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6779%2C504036

If we go really far back would Tom Arnton count. Though in 1880´s it seem to be usual that players were quite multi positional.

George Merritt?

I´m almost sure that I have forgot someone.

 

[Killion]

^^^ Unhuh, which is precisely why I mentioned it. Unlike "Days of Yore", of the Glamorous Multi Sport & Positional Chameleon Amateurs of the late 19th & early 20th Centuries, people began specializing and particularly so when it came to Goaltending. Thats not to say that some Goalies didnt have ambitions to play forward, as many would have and quite naturally.

Take the case of Gerry Cheevers. He'd played Goal & Forward (RW) as a kid, was Leafs property initially & assigned to Toronto St. Michaels under Father David Bauer. In 59/60 he won the "Baby Vezina" for Best GAA in the OHL however, he had it in his mind that he wanted to try playing forward and as Bauer himself explained in December 1960;

"Gerry has been wanting to try it for some time so we are taking him off our Goaltenders List for three weeks to see if he shows signs of developing. Weve got to develop more upfront and and have to try this now if Cheevers is to be of any help in March. Gerry has played Forward in a few fun games . He's a good skater - as good as almost any player on the team - a fair stickhandler and has an excellent sense of timing".

This three week experiment obviously didnt lead to Cheesy there turning in his paddle for a toothpick, but he mustve been decent enough that Bauer would entertain or indulge his star Goaltender like that. And that over the 3 weeks that followed no reports that he was a complete bust. In fact, I cant seem to find stats or comments about how he played anywhere which is a bit odd. Dave Dryden filling in for Cheevers in net. So at worst Cheevers was a borderline Major Junior Forward which given further development or had he shucked his pads earlier for being Forward, who knows?. Even a borderline Major Junior player back then none too shabby...

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Montreal Victoria goaltender from 1908 season called Robinson changed from cover point to goalie year before, but that happened in intermediates . Not a very memorable career in big league. Only one season and even his first name seem to be unknown.

Wyn Robinson, and he might qualify for my query since he was a skater for McGill in the CIHU before he was a goaltender.

If we go really far back would Tom Arnton count. Though in 1880´s it seem to be usual that players were quite multi positional.

Yes, there probably are a few from the very early years who changed positions. Did Tom Arnton ever play a skater position? The SIHR database doesn't think so, but I'll have to check my notes later.

George Merritt?

Bingo! I had a feeling I was missing someone fairly obvious as well. That's what I get for musing out loud, so to speak, without first checking my notes.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

This three week experiment obviously didnt lead to Cheesy there turning in his paddle for a toothpick, but he mustve been decent enough that Bauer would entertain or indulge his star Goaltender like that. And that over the 3 weeks that followed no reports that he was a complete bust. In fact, I cant seem to find stats or comments about how he played anywhere which is a bit odd.

8 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, 12 PIM. But this is all tangential to the topic of this thread, especially since Cheevers is a goaltender who briefly played skater, rather than a skater switching to goal full-time.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

If I'm remembering correctly, Joe "Chief" Jones played defence at the very beginning of his senior career. But that was in St. Paul, and hockey had really only just taken root there, so I'd hesitate to call it "high level." He had already switched to goal by the time he played against Portage Lakes, and impressed them so much that they snapped him up.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

There are a bunch of players from the 1890s and earlier that sort of fit the bill. They played goal a bit and skater a bit, none with really significant careers. Generally in lower levels than the top level. OHA especially.

Tom Arnton does qualify, he played defence in 1886 and goal in 1887. James Drysdale with the Shamrocks in 1890s is another. The first such player is surely
Robert Esdaile, who was a skater in 1875, then played goals for several seasons thereafter.

 

[Killion]

^^^ How about in lets say the last 75yrs Iain. Can you come up with even one example? I know of absolutely none. In the early game, absolutely. Maybe some day in an attic, a diary will be found describing even earlier accounts than Robert Esdaile as being the first. Simply have to be pre-dating that first recorded game in Montreal.

 

[Moose Head]

Would Lester Patrick qualify? His last pro game was as a fill in as a goalie in a Stanley Cup game and he was a d-man when he played.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Would Lester Patrick qualify? His last pro game was as a fill in as a goalie in a Stanley Cup game and he was a d-man when he played.

I think you've got it mixed up. The OP asked for goalies who started as skaters not the other way around.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

^^^ How about in lets say the last 75yrs Iain. Can you come up with even one example? I know of absolutely none.

No, that's why I was asking.

In the early game, absolutely. Maybe some day in an attic, a diary will be found describing even earlier accounts than Robert Esdaile as being the first. Simply have to be pre-dating that first recorded game in Montreal.

Not necessarily. Were there even goaltenders before 1875? Were they playing a game that could recognizable be called hockey in the sense we use the term now?

I think you've got it mixed up. The OP asked for goalies who started as skaters not the other way around.

He's got it in the right order, but Patrick was an emergency goalie only. I'm talking about players who made the shift full-time.

 

[Killion]

No, that's why I was asking.... Not necessarily. Were there even goaltenders before 1875? Were they playing a game that could recognizable be called hockey in the sense we use the term now?

Well, it would certainly be novel if in the last 75yrs someone pulled that off, but going back into the mists of time with primarily amateur players and the way the game evolved, there are "likely" quite a few examples (and no, Im not going to go looking for them) of players who played Goal, Cover Point, Wing or whatever. Interchangeable. "All Rounder" types. Do it all as needed from the 1870's through 00's... as for "were there even goalies before 1875"? Im inclined to believe so, yes. And for quite some time before that. Just when it became a full-time designated position I know not. Initially though, likely just a man who covered the goal, played back deep.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

No, that's why I was asking.


Not necessarily. Were there even goaltenders before 1875? Were they playing a game that could recognizable be called hockey in the sense we use the term now?


He's got it in the right order, but Patrick was an emergency goalie only. I'm talking about players who made the shift full-time.

Your title and the OP description say two different things. Title says goaltenders who started as skaters, and OP description says skater turned goalie.

I guess you mean both ways.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

as for "were there even goalies before 1875"? Im inclined to believe so, yes. And for quite some time before that. Just when it became a full-time designated position I know not. Initially though, likely just a man who covered the goal, played back deep.

That would be a defenceman, though, wouldn't it? Anyway, I'm game for a discussion about the origins of the game we now call hockey, but that would be topic for another thread.

Your title and the OP description say two different things. Title says goaltenders who started as skaters, and OP description says skater turned goalie.

I guess you mean both ways.

Well, yes. What I mean is someone who would be described as a "skater" later becoming someone described as a "goaltender." If the switch is on a permanent basis, then all examples will have been a skater at some point in their careers, and a goalie at a later point.

 

[Killion]

That would be a defenceman, though, wouldn't it? Anyway, I'm game for a discussion about the origins of the game we now call hockey, but that would be topic for another thread.... Well, yes. What I mean is someone who would be described as a "skater" later becoming someone described as a "goaltender." If the switch is on a permanent basis, then all examples will have been a skater at some point in their careers, and a goalie at a later point.

Sure, we could start another thread but I think your on an interesting track here, the Origins of Goaltending, when did it become a designated position. Asking the question what Goaltenders Started as Skaters as good a place as any start that the discussion. Gerry Cheevers as I mentioned is the only modern era Goaltender who Im aware of that not only did have ambitions to play out and did so at a high level (granted experimentally) while at the same time being an elite puckstopper.

We all know the old stories of how the littlest kid, fattest, worst skater or whatever gets assigned to playing goal, never playing out, and in some cases going on to professional & HHOF careers. Many as well do start out playing forward or defense and do so right through Pee Wee, donning the pads at Minor Bantam or even Bantam. Thereafter, if they dont make it to Major Junior, College, University or the Pro's.

I dont know of any that then stopped playing goal, took up playing Wing or whatever in an attempt to make it as a skater with the exception of Cheevers who clearly must have played & developed his forward skills before taking up Goaltending, perhaps simultaneously. Would be very very unusual.... I know plenty however, myself included, who always when playing shinny as a kid or later in a Beer League after hanging up the pads played forward. No interest in returning to the crease. Others however, playing rec hockey as goalies from Bantam into their 70's.

Fact is, being a strong skater is or perhaps I should say "was" an absolute prerequisite during the Standup Era, and was a big advantage previously during the Acrobatic/Flopper Era's as well, and most certainly would have been during the early game when Goalies were not aloud to leave their feet. Todays BF Goalies however, totally different animal. While some of them are good skaters (Smith in Phoenix for eg) a great many are not, incapable of playing the puck properly beyond their own crease.

Just through natural evolution, people playing on Long Pond or wherever, they may or may not have assigned someone to cover the net, it was basically hodgepodge shinny hockey, couldve been 7 aside, 10, 20 players. Where & when I grew up playing shinny, we never bothered with goalies at all. It was just a job to make it to the goal at all, deke through 10-15 + players, passes etc, usually one guy hanging right back there playing semi goal/defence if & when you got that far. So sure, way back when, when Goalies couldnt drop, when there was more of a fraternity within the game pre-professional, a game played by gentleman students, I could very easily envision skaters, Defenseman in particular, perhaps a spare all exchanging the role of goalie game in game out. If one excelled & enjoyed it stayed put in the net.

Back when Goalies had to serve their own penalties, how do you suppose Red Horner & King Clancy of the Leafs, who both had to "play goal" whilst their goalie was in the Box faired? How did they go about stopping the puck? Its not hard to imagine. Weve all seen situations where in the dying minutes of a game, a goalie gets pulled for an extra attacker, next thing you know however the guys with the lead are in deep on the attack, Orr or whomever trying to play Goal. So sure. Very early in the game, maybe a weak skater or someone without skates at all, go stand there in the net. Stop the puck.

As for the last part there Iain, again, I know of no Goaltenders who gave up the pads to play Forward or Defense nor even vice-versa over the past 100yrs of hockey history. None. Zero. So if youd like to re-frame this thread to "Origins of Goaltending 1800-1900". No problemo. Happy to change the thread title, potentially very interesting discussion. So far, who we have here that most anyone can even maybe begin to relate to is Percy LeSueur, one of hockeys earliest innovators & author of the book How to Play Hockey. He designed the Gauntlet Goalie Glove, re-designed the nets used & so on. A unique & interesting individual who contributed much to the games early development. But the farther back we go, rather light on verifiable proof of just about everything & anything. Totally different situation. So no. Your not going to find what your looking for over the past 75yrs. No individual that I am aware of (and Im not the last word on it, but good luck finding anyone) fits your criteria.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I didn't really expect to find anyone more recent, greater specialization over time leads to that being very unlikely. I'm not sure though if you're suggesting that since it only happened over 100 years ago, that it's not an interesting discussion? If you want to start a discussion about the origins of the position please go ahead, but I don't think there's a need to switch this thread over to it. It's certainly an interesting topic, and I think my research into early hockey rules would provide some insight into it.

 

[Killion]

^^^ No, not suggesting its "uninteresting". Quite the opposite. It is interesting. Definitely an "antique subject" qualifying with being at least 100yrs old.... and so the question to me would be when did goaltending become a designated position unofficially & officially?

You mentioned Robert Esdaile as likely the first skater who played at a high level & then "retired" to the net. But did he really "retire"? There were no Creases back then, up to the goalie to make that up himself in creating room so being aggressive, playing it like a 3rd Defenseman likely the norm as per the stories Ive read, Paddy Moran etc.

Moran to the best of my knowledge had not played out, never was a skater & in fact started late at 15. Esdaile, perhaps others like him could well have deployed skating skills tactically in jumping in & up in a rush while also playing goal. That he'd formerly played out and at a decent level definitely an advantage.... Moran who unlike Esdaile & LeSeuer didnt have that background employing instead more Neanderthal tactics in creating his crease, Woodchopper Deluxe basically, and also noted for expectorating his Tobacco Chaw in the faces of incoming Forwards. Transitional period there for sure.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

That would all depend on your definitions. The definition I'm using is for what I call organized hockey in my book, as an attempt to isolate the sport that we now simply call hockey from its predecessors. And this version of the game did not exist until 1875, which is why I called Esdaile the first, since he was one of the very first players. I never said he "retired" to the crease, but he was a skater in 1875 and played goal in 1876 and later years, so it was a switch.

So in the sense I'm using the term hockey here, the goaltender became a position in 1875, but it also means goaltender was always a position, since that's when hockey began. If you want to use a different definition, then the answer will be different.

 

[Killion]

That would all depend on your definitions. The definition I'm using is for what I call organized hockey in my book, as an attempt to isolate the sport that we now simply call hockey from its predecessors. And this version of the game did not exist until 1875, which is why I called Esdaile the first, since he was one of the very first players. I never said he "retired" to the crease, but he was a skater in 1875 and played goal in 1876 and later years, so it was a switch.

So in the sense I'm using the term hockey here, the goaltender became a position in 1875, but it also means goaltender was always a position, since that's when hockey began. If you want to use a different definition, then the answer will be different.

And how do you know it didnt exist until 1875? There simply isnt any recorded inf that it didnt. That date merely the first we have of pen being put to paper.... and of course you didnt use the word "retired". I used the term "retired". As an adjective. "To fall back, to withdraw from a more forward or frontal position".... When do you think the position of designated Goalkeeper was in fact created? 1875? That prior to that time the nets were just left wide-open? That just doesnt strike me as being in the least bit plausible. Your bolded statement is somewhat confusing, unclear, much as the entire pre-1875 history & development of the game is absent any serious documentation on the subject. Were more or less left to conjecture, speculation.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

And how do you know it didnt exist until 1875?

Remember that I'm talking about a particular definition of hockey here. I'll try to post the exact wording I developed tonight. The key part of it is the puck, whereas up to that date hockey generally used a ball.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

When do you think the position of designated Goalkeeper was in fact created? 1875?

In hockey, in the sense I'm using the word, it was 1875 because that's when this version of the game was invented.

Goaltenders were used in other sports before then, and may have also been used in other versions of hockey as well.

That prior to that time the nets were just left wide-open?

No, see above. Also, there were no nets in 1875.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Codified

That would all depend on your definitions. The definition I'm using is for what I call organized hockey in my book, as an attempt to isolate the sport that we now simply call hockey from its predecessors. And this version of the game did not exist until 1875, which is why I called Esdaile the first, since he was one of the very first players. I never said he "retired" to the crease, but he was a skater in 1875 and played goal in 1876 and later years, so it was a switch.

So in the sense I'm using the term hockey here, the goaltender became a position in 1875, but it also means goaltender was always a position, since that's when hockey began. If you want to use a different definition, then the answer will be different.

Individual definitions are nice but of little importance.

When was the position of goalie codified in the rules with goalie specific rules touching equipment, responsibilities, defined rule considerations for the goalie positions.

The February 27, 1877 Montreal(McGill) rules do mention goal - keeper:

Montreal (McGill) Rules Transcription

The game shall be commenced and renewed by a Bully in the centre of the ground. Goals shall be changed after each game.
When a player hits the ball, any one of the same side who at such moment of hitting is nearer to the opponents’ goal line is out of play, and may not touch the ball himself, or in any way whatever prevent any other player from doing so, until the ball has been played. A player must always be on his own side of the ball.
The ball may be stopped, but not carried or knocked on by any part of the body. No player shall raise his stick above his shoulder. Charging from behind, tripping, collaring, kicking or shinning shall not be allowed.
When the ball is hit behind the goal line by the attacking side, it shall be brought out straight 15 yards, and started again by a Bully; but, if hit behind by any one of the side whose goal line it is, a player of the opposite side shall hit it out from within one yard of the nearest corner, no player of the attacking side at that time shall be within 20 yards of the goal line, and the defenders, with the exception of the goal-keeper, must be behind their goal line.
When the ball goes off at the side, a player of the opposite side to that which hit it out shall roll it out from the point on the boundary line at which it went off at right angles with the boundary line, and it shall not be in play until it has touched the ice, and the player rolling it in shall not play it until it has been played by another player, every player being then behind the ball.
On the infringement of any of the above rules, the ball shall be brought back and a Bully shall take place.
All disputes shall be settled by the Umpires, or in the event of their disagreement, by the Referee.


But these are unclear as to whether the goal-keeper may be rotated from amongst the skaters or benefits from distinct equipment, special positional rules and considerations.

So the first codified goalie would be post February 27, 1877 at least.