Post-Game Talk: #16: Coyotes 4 at FLYERS 5 (OT), Thursday, Nov. 8, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Exactly.

+/- requires too much missing context to be useful. It’s a completely useless stat for judging individuals because it’s way too easy for a player to get a completely undeserved + or -.

Well, you could say the same about secondary assists, so we should stick to P1?

Jake is not physical, he can be physical when he wants to be, but that's almost exclusively tied to retaining puck possession in the O-zone, not forechecking, or fighting for the puck along the boards or in the corners in the D-zone. He plays a soft, offensive oriented game. Always has, always will. The shame is every so often he'll flash an edge, then go back to passive Jake. The physical potential is there, but he's not wired that way - imagine if Giroux had Jake's body!
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
That isn't true. If Ghost were responsible for so many high danger chances against than it would be reflected in a GA/60 that is markedly worse. Since it isn't markedly worse, then it means his on ice save percentage should be far better to make up for all these supposed chances against. That isn't true either. Your claim would be reflected somewhere. You are making claims that are measurable. No measurement confirms your claims, though.

Your claim about Provorov doesn't work either. Provy remains the best on the team at shot suppression, especially in high danger areas. When he is on the ice fewer high danger chances occur, by far. You've just claimed the opposite. Hagg is probably the worst overall for yielding high danger chances against, since he engages in practically no shot suppression and his poor offensive performance is increasingly giving possession to opposing teams, and generating rushes against.

If you don’t see the error in your logic by now, you never will.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,316
Armored Train
If you don’t see the error in your logic by now, you never will.


There is no error in my logic. The end result of all these high danger chances would either be that he has more goals against, or that to prevent the extra goals against his on ice save percentage would be higher than the rest of the team. His PDO would also be something unsustainable. In fact, his PDO is actually low; he has been unlucky, not lucky. Additionally, his on ice save percentage is really low; if he were yielding high quality chances at a rate higher than other dmen, then his GA/60 would be worse. He and Provorov are tied, only Gudas and Hagg have done better, all other Dmen are worse.

You are making measurable claims and no measurement backs them up.
 
Last edited:

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Players with most HDCA:

Voracek 61
Giroux 53
Couts 49
Simmonds 36
Laughton 27
Patrick 26
TK 24
Lindblom 23
Vorobyev 22

Provorov 54
Ghost 47
Hagg 46
Sanheim 32
Folin 30
Gudas 27

Some of this is how much time on the ice and with whom, but some things stand out:
Vorobyev was really bad, no sugar coating given he only played 68 5x5 minutes
The kids are more careful than the veteran forwards by a substantial margin, maybe coaching matters.
Provorov is having a terrible year protecting the puck (Hagg has played with AMac and Provorov, so that inflates his #).
Sanheim isn't screwing up like last season.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,491
42,218
With the system Hak plays making it hard to score 5on5, I would kind of like to see him cope without Ghost and Voracek, who are the best dman and the best forward on the team at generating offense out of nothing.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Beef Invictus

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
76,364
122,631
That isn't true. If Ghost were responsible for so many high danger chances against than it would be reflected in a GA/60 that is markedly worse. Since it isn't markedly worse, then it means his on ice save percentage should be far better to make up for all these supposed chances against. That isn't true either. Your claim would be reflected somewhere. You are making claims that are measurable. No measurement confirms your claims, though.

Your claim about Provorov doesn't work either. Provy remains the best on the team at shot suppression, especially in high danger areas. When he is on the ice fewer high danger chances occur, by far. You've just claimed the opposite. Hagg is probably the worst overall for yielding high danger chances against, since he engages in practically no shot suppression and his poor offensive performance is increasingly giving possession to opposing teams, and generating rushes against.

:highclap:
:5:
:yo:
:vhappy:
:clap:
:snide::snide::snide:
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,316
Armored Train
Withe the system Hak plays making it hard to score 5on5, I would kind of like to see him cope without Ghost and Voracek, who are the best dman and the best forward on the team at generating offense out of nothing.


Sanheim is also beginning to create offense out of situations where it appears nothing exists, too, but not at their level.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Withe the system Hak plays making it hard to score 5on5, I would kind of like to see him cope without Ghost and Voracek, who are the best dman and the best forward on the team at generating offense out of nothing.

I think they could do fine if you traded for the right players.
I'd trade Sanheim before Ghost, but I'd be happy to get a fast offensive RW as part of a Voracek deal who was a better fit for Lindblom - Patrick.
Even better, if you could get a 3C who could move to RW next year as part of the deal.

Think Toronto regrets trading Kessel for Kapanen? And the 1st they traded for Anderson?
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
There is no error in my logic. The end result of all these high danger chances would either be that he has more goals against, or that to prevent the extra goals against his on ice save percentage would be higher than the rest of the team. His PDO would also be something unsustainable. In fact, his PDO is actually low; he has been unlucky, not lucky. Additionally, his on ice save percentage is really low; if he were yielding high quality chances at a rate higher than other dmen, then his GA/60 would be worse. He and Provorov are tied, only Gudas and Hagg have done better, all other Dmen are worse.

You are making measurable claims and no measurement backs them up.

I’ve already explained my point. I’m sick of repeating it. My complaint with Ghost is that *HE* is directly responsible for an inordinate number of odd man rushes against via turnover compared to any other individual on the team. When there’s an odd man rush via turnover when he’s on the ice (& are your stats including 4 on 4, bc that counts,too) odds are he’s responsible. And I think he’s a turnover machine in general.

Other players may have higher GA/60, but I highly doubt they *individually* were directly responsible for more turnovers turning into Grade A chances than Ghost.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,007
199,709
Tokyo, JP
Vorobyev was really bad, no sugar coating given he only played 68 5x5 minutes

Well sure, if some ****ing idiot came along and said "Pimp is the finished article right now." But that's not the ****ing point, is it? That's never been the ****ing point, has it? No one with any shred of sense has ever argued that he was the difference in ****ing 2018-19 between winning and losing. People who aren't ****ing idiots have argued that he deserves to play through his struggles at the NHL level because he is good enough to do that, and people have argued that we have a ****ing serious logjam coming in LHV and they need to Ex-Lax this **** and get it going. But if you ****ing ignore all that and have a ****ing weird vendetta against Russians and want to act like he was the worst ****ing player who ever lived, that's ... something to post about, I guess.

83625304.gif
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,316
Armored Train
Ghost is 4th on the team for point production, with 9 in 16 games. His GA/60 isn't unusually detrimental. Whatever sins you may think him guilty of, broadly speaking the actual negative impact on the team isn't remotely out of line, it isn't worse than the likes of Folin, MacDonald, or Sanheim, especially when you consider that his quality of competition is harder than someone like Hagg. And he easily comes out as a net positive when you consider his offensive production, which most of the other dmen can't dream of touching.
 

Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
Apr 8, 2012
4,878
5,748
2nd star 2 the right
I’ve already explained my point. I’m sick of repeating it. My complaint with Ghost is that *HE* is directly responsible for an inordinate number of odd man rushes against via turnover compared to any other individual on the team. When there’s an odd man rush via turnover when he’s on the ice (& are your stats including 4 on 4, bc that counts,too) odds are he’s responsible. And I think he’s a turnover machine in general.

Other players may have higher GA/60, but I highly doubt they *individually* were directly responsible for more turnovers turning into Grade A chances than Ghost.
Great. You are wrong. You are seeing based in confirmation basis. You came up with something and only look for it.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,316
Armored Train
Well sure, if some ****ing idiot came along and said "Pimp is the finished article right now." But that's not the ****ing point, is it? That's never been the ****ing point, has it? No one with any shred of sense has ever argued that he was the difference in ****ing 2018-19 between winning and losing. People who aren't ****ing idiots have argued that he deserves to play through his struggles at the NHL level because he is good enough to do that, and people have argued that we have a ****ing serious logjam coming in LHV and they need to Ex-Lax this **** and get it going. But if you ****ing ignore all that and have a ****ing weird vendetta against Russians and want to act like he was the worst ****ing player who ever lived, that's ... something to post about, I guess.

83625304.gif


We can judge Voro definitively after about a collective hour of game time, but apparently we can't judge Hakstol after 274 hours.

Weird how that works. Can you explain this discrepancy in standards, @deadhead?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captain Dave Poulin

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
33,322
103,971
Players with most HDCA:

Voracek 61
Giroux 53
Couts 49
Simmonds 36
Laughton 27
Patrick 26
TK 24
Lindblom 23
Vorobyev 22

Provorov 54
Ghost 47
Hagg 46
Sanheim 32
Folin 30
Gudas 27

Some of this is how much time on the ice and with whom, but some things stand out:
Vorobyev was really bad, no sugar coating given he only played 68 5x5 minutes
The kids are more careful than the veteran forwards by a substantial margin, maybe coaching matters.
Provorov is having a terrible year protecting the puck (Hagg has played with AMac and Provorov, so that inflates his #).
Sanheim isn't screwing up like last season.

At least use Rates if you're going to do this. To omit the small sample sizes like NAK and Knight (who both show excellently there), let's call it 200 5v5 Minutes.

6ZpIdtS.jpg


Vorobyev's tiny sample size would put him at 19.31 HDCA/60. Does that sound sustainable to you?

By the way, Sanheim is the Flyers' best Defenseman by HDCA/60 at 5v5 from Opening Day last year to today. However he's screwing up, I hope he keeps doing it.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Well sure, if some ****ing idiot came along and said "Pimp is the finished article right now." But that's not the ****ing point, is it? That's never been the ****ing point, has it? No one with any shred of sense has ever argued that he was the difference in ****ing 2018-19 between winning and losing. People who aren't ****ing idiots have argued that he deserves to play through his struggles at the NHL level because he is good enough to do that, and people have argued that we have a ****ing serious logjam coming in LHV and they need to Ex-Lax this **** and get it going. But if you ****ing ignore all that and have a ****ing weird vendetta against Russians and want to act like he was the worst ****ing player who ever lived, that's ... something to post about, I guess.

83625304.gif

Male PMS is a terrible thing.

I LIKE the Pimp, but he was over his head, and the best thing for him was to go back to the AHL, digest his NHL experience, and work on his game.
Lindblom went back to the AHL playoffs last year, instead of sulking used it as a learning experience, and is looking pretty good this year.
Sanheim went back to the AHL last year and looked much better when he returned.

Not every player hits the ice skating their first time in the NHL Some stumble and do a AMac imitation.
That's why you need to be patient with prospects.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
Ghost...according to NHL.com....has 6 giveaways this year. No way that stat is right. It also says Hagg only has 4.
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
76,364
122,631
Well sure, if some ****ing idiot came along and said "Pimp is the finished article right now." But that's not the ****ing point, is it? That's never been the ****ing point, has it? No one with any shred of sense has ever argued that he was the difference in ****ing 2018-19 between winning and losing. People who aren't ****ing idiots have argued that he deserves to play through his struggles at the NHL level because he is good enough to do that, and people have argued that we have a ****ing serious logjam coming in LHV and they need to Ex-Lax this **** and get it going. But if you ****ing ignore all that and have a ****ing weird vendetta against Russians and want to act like he was the worst ****ing player who ever lived, that's ... something to post about, I guess.

83625304.gif


:m-dance::m-dance::m-dance:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captain Dave Poulin

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
At least use Rates if you're going to do this. To omit the tiny sample sizes like NAK and Knight (who both show excellently there), let's call it 200 5v5 Minutes.

6ZpIdtS.jpg


Vorobyev's tiny sample size would put him at 19.31 HDCA/60. Does that sound sustainable to you?

By the way, Sanheim is the Flyers' best Defenseman by HDCA/60 at 5v5 from Opening Day last year to today. However he's screwing up, I hope he keeps doing it.

And Voracek should be traded!
Is that both seasons combined?
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
Says the guy who who was given evidence then just called it statistical mumbo jumbo.
I was given “statistical evidence” that doesn’t account for individual responsibility and spreads blame for goals & chances against equally among all 5 players on the ice. My point is that Ghost is a turnover machine & individually responsible for an inordinate number of odd man rush chances against compared to his 4 other linemates.

And there. That is my argument summarized. I will not bang my head against the ice further. If you don’t believe me, you don’t believe me.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->