Injury Report: 16-17 "Robidas Island": All Inhabitants have left the Island

[SEER]

 

[seventieslord]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

 

[Mikeyg]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

Lupul failed a physical. There is nothing illegal or immoral about that.

 

[SprDaVE]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

Plenty of teams/players "get away with it".

If the doctors say a player isn't healthy, or if the player says he's not healthy, how are you going to say they are wrong or even actually lying about it? I'm sure there's plenty of evaluations and underlying things happening. Are you saying the Leafs are creating a conspiracy of some kind?

If a player was healthy and/or wanted to play, all he has to do is play. If the team is blocking him from playing, all he has to do is file a grievance or go public about it. It's really simple. Lupul failed his physical and it was made public that he wasn't healthy.

Pronger was working as a NHL executive while still contracted by a NHL team. Plenty of players throughout the years were on LTIR for years until they retired after their contracts expired. It happens a lot.

There is a negative 100% chance this comes back to bite us.

 

[The Nic]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

What are you... a cop?

 

[Menzinger]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

Because the Leafs clearly are able to work out a deal with the players. So obviously management manages to get these guys on board somehow.

Interestingly Mirtle has mentioned that Lupul for example absolutely refuses to talk about his situation.

There's no independent verification.

 

[Damisoph]

If it was to come back and bite us, I would think it would have with Robidas. He played in exhibition games, then all of a sudden he's back coaching his kids school team and off the roster. I don't think it's a stretch to say Lupul's body has failed him and he won't be playing pro hockey ever again. I mean, the guy is getting paid $4.5M a year to hang out in LA and post on Instagram, it's a pretty good life he's leading.

 

[SprDaVE]

If it was to come back and bite us, I would think it would have with Robidas. He played in exhibition games, then all of a sudden he's back coaching his kids school team and off the roster. I don't think it's a stretch to say Lupul's body has failed him and he won't be playing pro hockey ever again.

Robidas has knee/leg issues. It's possible that after playing that game that it was clear he had to make the decision to unofficially retire because his knees couldn't handle the NHL, instead of forcing it in the AHL. Maybe he blew out his ACL... We really don't know what happened behind closed doors.

He's been with the Marlies recently as a development coach.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

What wouldn't it be allowed? What rule is being broken?

We're approaching older players with these options:

Stay injured and collect your contract. Let us deal with the cap implications.

Or

You come back to play. And once you're cleared you're a Marlie and likely not even playing and we gain $1mil in cap space or so.

These are all great examples for why the NHL needs an out option which can benefit older NA born players who can't go home to the KHL.

Why shouldn't we and Lupul be able to mutually terminate our deal if he wants to go try and make Vegas for 800K? Since we can't, this is the result.

Lupul keeping his mouth shut is for the good of his team and his PA.

 

[ACC1224]

Robidas has knee/leg issues. It's possible that after playing that game that it was clear he had to make the decision to unofficially retire because his knees couldn't handle the NHL, instead of forcing it in the AHL. Maybe he blew out his ACL... We really don't know what happened behind closed doors.

He's been with the Marlies recently as a development coach.

Highest paid Coach in the league? I could see why he'd complain.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

Plenty of teams/players "get away with it".

Are you saying the Leafs are creating a conspiracy of some kind?

Plenty of players throughout the years were on LTIR for years until they retired after their contracts expired. It happens a lot.

There is a negative 100% chance this comes back to bite us.

Because the Leafs clearly are able to work out a deal with the players. So obviously management manages to get these guys on board somehow.

Interestingly Mirtle has mentioned that Lupul for example absolutely refuses to talk about his situation.

There's no independent verification.

Its an interesting question. I think its correct to say that there is no independent verification, and that both the NHL and NHLPA seem unconcerned about it. From the NHLPA perspective, given that the player still gets paid, it addresses their main concern.

 

[SprDaVE]

Its an interesting question. I think its correct to say that there is no independent verification, and that both the NHL and NHLPA seem unconcerned about it. From the NHLPA perspective, given that the player still gets paid, it addresses their main concern.

I find it weird that it feels like we're the only fanbase that cares so much about players that are obviously unofficially retired due to injuries. They weren't exactly out of the blue.

Lupul was a walking cast for most of his career and all of a sudden we're wondering if there's some question marks about his recent injury? I mean, let's get real here.

Horton has a very painful back issue and I read awhile back that he's in pain by standing up too long, or something along those lines.

As for Robidas, looks like his knees never really healed. Not sure how anyone can think he wasn't a risk of being on LTIR.

Either way, I have no idea how any of this could come back to bite us. I really don't see it.

 

[bobermay]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

I can't see it biting us, tbh. It would have been more advantageous for us to not have them on the IR, waive them, and save 950K each.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Its an interesting question. I think its correct to say that there is no independent verification, and that both the NHL and NHLPA seem unconcerned about it. From the NHLPA perspective, given that the player still gets paid, it addresses their main concern.

I find it weird that it feels like we're the only fanbase that cares so much about players that are obviously unofficially retired due to injuries.

I hadn't noticed that, but I guess I'm likely not too worried about that kind of thing.

Its possible we have more players in this category than other teams. Others can do the research if they wish (have the time).

Given that we had to take (creative/desperate) measures to completely rebuild, and that the club has deep pockets, I think those facts align with the idea that we've had more LTIR than most. IIRC, we certainly used up all of the compliance buy-outs as well, whereas other teams had none.

 

[keon]

This debate has two sides to the same coin. One side is Robidas and Lupul buried on Robidas Island. The other side has Laich, Michalek, and Greening buried with the Marlies. Both Robidas and Lupul had legitimate injuries that marginally justified being placed on LTIR. Laich, Michalek and Greening did not have injuries but had declining NHL skills that pushed them on to the Marlies roster. Both scenarios are legitimate and there should be no issues.

It is a sign of respect by Toronto to treat Robidas and Lupul as full beneficiaries of their NHL salaries without riding the AHL buses. Toronto did not use any cap relief from having Robidas and Lupul on LTIR. Toronto may have used some LTIR attributable to Horton during the season. Toronto did benefit from having 26 roster spots because all of Horton, Robidas, and Lupul were LTIR. If Robidas and Lupul were not LTIR then they would have been pushed down to the AHL and Toronto would have benefited from $950,000 cap relief for each player.

 

[seventieslord]

Lupul failed a physical. There is nothing illegal or immoral about that.

Right, he “failed†a physical. How do we know for real whether he’s healthy? The team and player can simply agree to that, and get away with it.

Plenty of teams/players "get away with it".

If the doctors say a player isn't healthy, or if the player says he's not healthy, how are you going to say they are wrong or even actually lying about it? I'm sure there's plenty of evaluations and underlying things happening. Are you saying the Leafs are creating a conspiracy of some kind?

I don’t know if “conspiracy†is the right word. If a player says he’s not healthy, I agree there’s very little that can be done. But Lupul sounded ready to go in August. It seems obvious in his case that an arrangement was made.

If a player was healthy and/or wanted to play, all he has to do is play. If the team is blocking him from playing, all he has to do is file a grievance or go public about it. It's really simple. Lupul failed his physical and it was made public that he wasn't healthy.

That’s not true. If a player was healthy and wants to play, he can’t just walk into the room and throw on a jersey. The GM has to put him on the active roster. The coach has to dress him.

It’s quite possible the team is blocking him from playing; the question is does anyone really care if Lupul doesn’t?

Pronger was working as a NHL executive while still contracted by a NHL team. Plenty of players throughout the years were on LTIR for years until they retired after their contracts expired. It happens a lot.

There is a negative 100% chance this comes back to bite us.

I don’t see Pronger as the same thing at all. First, there was no question about his injury. Second, there was definitely no question about his ability to come back and be an excellent NHL player had he not been hurt, so there was no reason to question whether he was being buried to avoid wasting cap space on dead weight.

What wouldn't it be allowed? What rule is being broken?

We're approaching older players with these options:

Stay injured and collect your contract. Let us deal with the cap implications.

Or

You come back to play. And once you're cleared you're a Marlie and likely not even playing and we gain $1mil in cap space or so.

These are all great examples for why the NHL needs an out option which can benefit older NA born players who can't go home to the KHL.

Why shouldn't we and Lupul be able to mutually terminate our deal if he wants to go try and make Vegas for 800K? Since we can't, this is the result.

Lupul keeping his mouth shut is for the good of his team and his PA.

LOL – “stay injured†– no, no problem there at all.

Its an interesting question. I think its correct to say that there is no independent verification, and that both the NHL and NHLPA seem unconcerned about it. From the NHLPA perspective, given that the player still gets paid, it addresses their main concern.

I think it really is interesting. I’m just surprised more isn’t made of it.

I suppose more will be made of it next June when the Leafs are playing in the finals with a couple big UFA signings and a couple big trade deadline acquisitions, all of which they were able to make thanks to having an extra 5.25M of cap space that they obtained under shady circumstances.

 

[seventieslord]

I find it weird that it feels like we're the only fanbase that cares so much about players that are obviously unofficially retired due to injuries. They weren't exactly out of the blue.

Lupul was a walking cast for most of his career and all of a sudden we're wondering if there's some question marks about his recent injury? I mean, let's get real here.

Horton has a very painful back issue and I read awhile back that he's in pain by standing up too long, or something along those lines.

As for Robidas, looks like his knees never really healed. Not sure how anyone can think he wasn't a risk of being on LTIR.

Either way, I have no idea how any of this could come back to bite us. I really don't see it.

For the record, Lupul is the only one that concerns me / looks shady.

I can't see it biting us, tbh. It would have been more advantageous for us to not have them on the IR, waive them, and save 950K each.

can you explain the 950k part? Must be something I'm not aware of.

edit.... nevermind... googled it.

950k is nice but not enough incentive for a team to "do the right thing" to a player in Lupul's situation (wants to play, healthy*, has an NHL contract, not wanted in the NHL) when they can LTIR him and get full cap relief.

*assuming he is healthy. I realize he might not be.

 

[barilko05]

Possible scenario:

Lupul isn't injured...per se. However, even though he may be healthy enough to attend camp and play, he has been warned by Doctors that he is at risk for serious injury if he take to the ice (ie, back or neck issues from bodychecks).

Lupul is also told that there is no guarantee he would even MAKE the team out of camp. We're going with the kids, he's told. You may end up 4th line, but you're probably going to join Greening, etc, on the Marlies.

Lupul weighs his options. Decides discretion is the better part of valour (and 5.2 mil) and tells the team he will go on LTIR rather than risk further injury (to his body and to his ego).

So in a sense...he CAN play...but he's at risk if he does.

Plausible?

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Can we change the thread title? The marner injury thing is scaring me

 

[seventieslord]

Possible scenario:

Lupul isn't injured...per se. However, even though he may be healthy enough to attend camp and play, he has been warned by Doctors that he is at risk for serious injury if he take to the ice (ie, back or neck issues from bodychecks).

Lupul is also told that there is no guarantee he would even MAKE the team out of camp. We're going with the kids, he's told. You may end up 4th line, but you're probably going to join Greening, etc, on the Marlies.

Lupul weighs his options. Decides discretion is the better part of valour (and 5.2 mil) and tells the team he will go on LTIR rather than risk further injury (to his body and to his ego).

So in a sense...he CAN play...but he's at risk if he does.

Plausible?

Yes, that's plausible.

I assume that if a player is perfectly healthy and capable of playing but is at serius risk if they do, they are for all intents and purposes injured, right?

 

[bobermay]

can you explain the 950k part? Must be something I'm not aware of.

edit.... nevermind... googled it.

950k is nice but not enough incentive for a team to "do the right thing" to a player in Lupul's situation (wants to play, healthy*, has an NHL contract, not wanted in the NHL) when they can LTIR him and get full cap relief.

*assuming he is healthy. I realize he might not be.

This is how I understand it:

LTIR gives teams flexibility to go over the cap, but not to it. The salary cap of Robidas, Horton and Lupul still applied to our cap hit this season, and in essence, we got no cap releif. The Leafs did not use any of our LTIR cap space this season which you can tell when we were ~100K under the cap at seasons end... if we used LTIR space, we'd be at 0. LTIR gave the leafs ability to ADD cap (up to ~12 million), but they didn't utilize it at the TDL. (A missed opportunity IMO, maybe we were planning on adding but deal(s) fell through).

Furthurmore, LTIR does not benefit the club when you take ELC bonuses into account. By placing Horton, Robidas and Lupul off LTIR, and sending them all to the AHL, we would have 2.85 million (950K each). This could have contributed to cap savings which COULD HAVE been used to the accumulated ELC bonuses for Matthews/Nylander/Marner.

Now, nearly the entire bonuses will go to our cap hit next season.

At the end of the day, because we didn't acquire any large contract(s), we would have been better off NOT having Lupul et al. on LTIR as it would have lower our commitment to rookie bonuses for next season.

Does this make sense?

 

[gcjag]

Can we change the thread title? The marner injury thing is scaring me

Haha... i thought the exact same thing.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Pretty certain the NHL has to get an independant doctor to verify a long term injury before a team is allowed to LTIR someone. The Leafs LTIR'd all 3 of Robidas, Lupul, and Horton early in this past season(but didn't need the space in the end). So I would assume that an independant doctor signed off on it already. They'd have to sign off on it again next season for Lupul and Horton. Horton is likely an easy one for the rest of his contract, Lupul will probably be able to do it again like they did it last year. If not I don't think it's a big deal since we already have 5.3 with Horton if we need it, and Lupul's contract is done after this year.

 

[seventieslord]

This is how I understand it:

LTIR gives teams flexibility to go over the cap, but not to it. The salary cap of Robidas, Horton and Lupul still applied to our cap hit this season, and in essence, we got no cap releif. The Leafs did not use any of our LTIR cap space this season which you can tell when we were ~100K under the cap at seasons end... if we used LTIR space, we'd be at 0. LTIR gave the leafs ability to ADD cap (up to ~12 million), but they didn't utilize it at the TDL. (A missed opportunity IMO, maybe we were planning on adding but deal(s) fell through).

Furthurmore, LTIR does not benefit the club when you take ELC bonuses into account. By placing Horton, Robidas and Lupul off LTIR, and sending them all to the AHL, we would have 2.85 million (950K each). This could have contributed to cap savings which COULD HAVE been used to the accumulated ELC bonuses for Matthews/Nylander/Marner.

Now, nearly the entire bonuses will go to our cap hit next season.

At the end of the day, because we didn't acquire any large contract(s), we would have been better off NOT having Lupul et al. on LTIR as it would have lower our commitment to rookie bonuses for next season.

Does this make sense?

I........... think so?

 

[Warden of the North]

Let's talk about Robidas Island. How is this allowed? How are the Leafs getting away with it? I know in some cases it's debatable, but let's look at Lupul for example. Who independently verifies that he's actually injured and not just "being paid $4M to stay away from the team?" Just curious what the chances are that this comes back to bite us in the long run.

Why would Lupul jeopardize his potential future earnings by pretending to be injured to help the Leafs?

Unwrap the tinfoil.