Prospect Info: 13th Official Rangers Prospect Poll: #1 prospect

cwede

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Sep 1, 2010
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Skjei. Add Jensen ( i dont expect him to be the one, but wanted to note that, like Hrivik, he seems to be ascending, and i expect him to contribute this year)
but i also like Paliotta,
and unlike a lot of posters, don't believe there is a certain gap between Shesty and Hellberg, Halvy, Skaps even Huska (not underestimating his work in the K, just think we suddenly have genuine G prospect depth)

Argument might be made that Nanne should remain an eligible contender,
but no biggie, he wont make top 25 anyway,
Let's see if he actually dresses for Gophers when games begin
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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Would really like to see Vesey against some actual good competition before anointing him a better prospect than Buch... or even Skjei, for that matter.

Not like Butcher was up against NHL competition either. I really don't get how a guy who's clearly already a middle-6 player is not going to be our top prospect. Butcher is said to have a higher ceiling, but how so? Is he going to be a first liner? Doubtful. Meanwhile Vesey is extremely likely to be a second liner. Butcher's ceiling is about the same as Vesey, but Vesey has a much better chance of getting there and a much better floor.

I voted for Vesey but tempted to say Shesterkin. He is always underrated in this poll.

That's how I feel. He already had 2 shutouts for SKA. 2.04 and .921 are excellent number, especially for someone who won't be able to buy a beer legally until after Christmas. He should be in the conversation as one of us top prospects.
 
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silverfish

got perma'd
Jun 24, 2008
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under the bridge
Not like Butcher was up against NHL competition either. I really don't get how a guy who's clearly already a middle-6 player is not going to be our top prospect. Butcher is said to have a higher ceiling, but how so? Is he going to be a first liner? Doubtful. Meanwhile Vesey is extremely likely to be a second liner. Butcher's ceiling is about the same as Vesey, but Vesey has a much better chance of getting there and a much better floor.

Buchnevich has spent the last 4 seasons playing against professional hockey players in what is widely regarded as the 2nd best league in the world. And Vesey is certainly not already a middle-6 player. I don't know how one could make that claim yet.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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Besides, I think Buch has been better in the preseason so far than Vesey, although Vesey did have a better TC tournament. Why is Vesey assumed to be so much more NHL ready?

Thats not taking anything away from Vesey, I think he's very good.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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Why do you think its doubtful?

First because very few players become first liners. Second, usually those guys display dominance from a very early age. Butcher displayed quality play, but not dominance. Stepan looked like a man among boys in the WJC. Butcher looked like a nice player. When he was a year younger than Butcher and had no pro experience, Stepan left no doubt during the preseason that he'll immediately be a key player - and then scored 3 goals plus a goal post in his first game. Then Step developed decently well, not like he suddenly became a bust.

And even Step is only a borderline first liner, not a superstar. One of the main reasons people give for us not winning the Cup is that we did not have a dominant 1C, just an ok one. What reason do we have to believe that Butcher will go from a lower point right now (than Step at the same age) to at least an equal point? I know it's just one player, but it's a pretty representative example. Becoming a first liner is very, very hard. Usually the talent to do so is obvious by the time you're 21.5 years old.

There's nothing wrong with being a good second liner. Nobody complains about Miller and Kreider, and the team gave up first rounders to get him. If a third rounder Butcher becomes their equal (in value, not style), it's an excellent result. Expecting him to become a 70-point player is a bit optimistic.
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
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Depends on ones definition of first liner, Points? Ice time?

There are going to be 31 teams, that is 93 first line players.

Last year the forward who ranked 90th had 49 points, while only 15 forwards had 70 or more points.

Not trying to argue the top 90 are all first liners, more so it depends on which definition one is using.
 

Inferno

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Nov 27, 2005
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First because very few players become first liners. Second, usually those guys display dominance from a very early age. Butcher displayed quality play, but not dominance. Stepan looked like a man among boys in the WJC. Butcher looked like a nice player. When he was a year younger than Butcher and had no pro experience, Stepan left no doubt during the preseason that he'll immediately be a key player - and then scored 3 goals plus a goal post in his first game. Then Step developed decently well, not like he suddenly became a bust.

And even Step is only a borderline first liner, not a superstar. One of the main reasons people give for us not winning the Cup is that we did not have a dominant 1C, just an ok one. What reason do we have to believe that Butcher will go from a lower point right now (than Step at the same age) to at least an equal point? I know it's just one player, but it's a pretty representative example. Becoming a first liner is very, very hard. Usually the talent to do so is obvious by the time you're 21.5 years old.

There's nothing wrong with being a good second liner. Nobody complains about Miller and Kreider, and the team gave up first rounders to get him. If a third rounder Butcher becomes their equal (in value, not style), it's an excellent result. Expecting him to become a 70-point player is a bit optimistic.

i think buchnevich becomes a 2nd liner...im not expecting a first liner out of him...
 

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
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Buch based on potential and more diverse skill set. Also, not only has he been improving with each game, I personally think he's been one of the better players on the team in both – all despite the language difference and smaller rink size. Very impressive.

Add Skapski.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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Depends on ones definition of first liner, Points? Ice time?

There are going to be 31 teams, that is 93 first line players.

Last year the forward who ranked 90th had 49 points, while only 15 forwards had 70 or more points.

Not trying to argue the top 90 are all first liners, more so it depends on which definition one is using.


There are probably about 60 guys who can play on the top line of a Cup contender. Almost all #3F on non-playoff teams are not real first liners in the sense that they would still be there if the team was any good. That knocks out 14 players from the original 90 (30x3). There are a bunch of others who you wouldn't view as first liners who got first line gigs: the 2F on really bad teams, the 3F on some average teams, such as the Rangers playing Miller and Kreider on the first line at times, but nobody views them as first liners. Realistically, we're talking about 50-60 players who can legitimately be called first liners on a Cup contender without their spot being viewed as the team's weakness.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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First because very few players become first liners. Second, usually those guys display dominance from a very early age. Butcher displayed quality play, but not dominance. Stepan looked like a man among boys in the WJC. Butcher looked like a nice player. When he was a year younger than Butcher and had no pro experience, Stepan left no doubt during the preseason that he'll immediately be a key player - and then scored 3 goals plus a goal post in his first game. Then Step developed decently well, not like he suddenly became a bust.

And even Step is only a borderline first liner, not a superstar. One of the main reasons people give for us not winning the Cup is that we did not have a dominant 1C, just an ok one. What reason do we have to believe that Butcher will go from a lower point right now (than Step at the same age) to at least an equal point? I know it's just one player, but it's a pretty representative example. Becoming a first liner is very, very hard. Usually the talent to do so is obvious by the time you're 21.5 years old.

There's nothing wrong with being a good second liner. Nobody complains about Miller and Kreider, and the team gave up first rounders to get him. If a third rounder Butcher becomes their equal (in value, not style), it's an excellent result. Expecting him to become a 70-point player is a bit optimistic.

Very few players becoming first liners is a bad argument. We aren't talking about some random player, we are talking about a very good NHL prospect, so the odds should go from nearly 0 to a significant percentage. Lets just say conservatively, almost everyone has him ranked as a top 40 prospect, some have him ranked him than that, how many of those top 40 NHL prospects don't have significant chances to be first liners/top pairing defenseman?

Plenty of players have bad WJC's and become very good players, and plenty have very good WJC's and don't become NHL'ers. Buch had 13 points in 14 WJC games over two tournaments. For a top prospect, not great, but not terrible. If you go back and check those that became NHL first liners, I doubt that many of them were much better than right around 1PPG over 10+ games. I think its a mistake to think that type of WJC performance either qualifies or disqualifies him from being a 1st liner in the NHL. And if we are talking about international tournaments, why are you only counting the WJC-20's? Why not the WJC-18's? Buch had the second most points in that tournament his draft year behind some guy named McDavid.

What mainly qualifies a player is usually how they play with their professional team, college team, junior team, not a few international games. If you go purely on KHL stats from ages 18-21, he's only worse than Kuznetsov and Tarasenko, and better than Panarin, so if you are using those examples, it would make sense that he would become a first liner. We can all guess at what his current level compared to the NHL is, but he's played two preseason games, and he's certainly not been out of place, one might even say he's been very good. Would Stepan have had 6 points in those two preseason games? I know so many people have unrealistic expectations, but he doesn't need to be the best player on the team in preseason to prove that he's a top 9 NHL player this season.

His skill-set compares favorably to second liners on the Rangers like Kreider and Miller. If we are grading on a 20-80 scale, he projects in the future as at least a 50 grade player in every single offensive category, whether its shot, hands, skating, puck protection, puck handling, playmaking, etc. Compare that to players like Kreider or Miller who although have some very nice tools, have clear weaknesses in their offensive games. If I was to guess, I think he'll be around a Stepan level NHL player, and to be clear, I think Stepan is a first liner, if the qualification of a first line center is the top 30 centers in the NHL, instead of just some arbitrary cut-off where people feel comfortable saying a player is a 1C.
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
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There are probably about 60 guys who can play on the top line of a Cup contender. Almost all #3F on non-playoff teams are not real first liners in the sense that they would still be there if the team was any good. That knocks out 14 players from the original 90 (30x3). There are a bunch of others who you wouldn't view as first liners who got first line gigs: the 2F on really bad teams, the 3F on some average teams, such as the Rangers playing Miller and Kreider on the first line at times, but nobody views them as first liners. Realistically, we're talking about 50-60 players who can legitimately be called first liners on a Cup contender without their spot being viewed as the team's weakness.

I think that is one way to look at it.
 

FLYLine27*

BUCH
Nov 9, 2004
42,410
14
NY
Buch based on potential and more diverse skill set. Also, not only has he been improving with each game, I personally think he's been one of the better players on the team in both – all despite the language difference and smaller rink size. Very impressive.

Add Skapski.

He's been ok, but one of the better players? That's really pushing it.
 

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