11 Forwards / 7 Dmen

Hope Bringer

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Jan 6, 2010
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This was proposed in The Athletic, and I think it's a pretty interesting solution to the group as it is right now. Do we need a 4th line centre when we can give Matthews, Tavares, and Kadri a little more icetime?

We also know Tavares can penalty kill pretty well, and we already have staples to the pk like Hyman, Brown, and Kapanen. I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing how Matthews does, as I generally think playing skilled players on the pk is a good idea.

As for our D—the article proposed running:
Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Z
Borgman/Rosen - Holl/Carrick
Marincin/Hainsey

We could use Marincin/Hainsey as PK specialists, which is pretty much where they're most valuable anyways. I'm also up for moving Z down the lineup if he continues to struggle, but I think we're strong enough to be able to make the playoffs anyways, so why not experiment a bit and see how this works?

Usually, I'm not a fan of this structure, but then again, when you have three centres of this calibre, I think it's at least interesting to think about.
 

X66

114-110
Aug 18, 2008
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I don't think Babcock will be in favour, but what I agreed from that Article was running Gardiner/Rielly as a pairing.

I'd be interested in checking out the 11 forwards, because there are even some shifts where you can play Hyman or Nylander as a center.
 
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Battle Lin

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Dec 18, 2015
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we struggling to find 6 nhl Ds, finding 7 is even harder, some nights it looks like we dont even have 3 good nhl Dmen...if we have 7 good nhl defenders, playing them all would be an idea to think about
 

Hope Bringer

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Jan 6, 2010
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we struggling to find 6 nhl Ds, finding 7 is even harder, some nights it looks like we dont even have 3 good nhl Dmen...if we have 7 good nhl defenders, playing them all would be an idea to think about

I think a lot of our D were just playing out of their level. By not playing Hainsey 22 minutes, and potentially cutting Zaitsev's ice back a bit as well, I think it would just slot players in a little better than what was run last year. I think Dubas will also see value in players like Carrick and Marincin and will want to see what they look like again under different circumstances.

I do agree though that Babcock probably doesn't like this idea.
 

Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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Options is always a good thing. Having an extra guy back there improves those options. Is it worth not having a 4C to play 5-8 minutes a night? I think so but I doubt they'd go down the route.
 
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kk87

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Feb 12, 2015
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I've been of this mindset ever since the signing was announced. Having three high end centres who are all capable of playing big minutes against high QOC gives us a unique opportunity to do this; couple that with the fact that we have a handful of wingers who could fill in at C for a shift or two, and it actually makes a lot of sense. That being said, it's never going to happen, but it's still intriguing to think about.

we struggling to find 6 nhl Ds, finding 7 is even harder, some nights it looks like we dont even have 3 good nhl Dmen...if we have 7 good nhl defenders, playing them all would be an idea to think about

It's not that we lack NHL calibre dmen, it's that we lack dmen who can play big minutes. Gardiner, Zaitsev, and Hainsey would all be more effective players if they were playing reduced minutes. Somewhat like Rosen, Holl, Borgman, etc could likely transition into that 7 slot seamlessly, and even by playing 10-15 minutes a night they could dramatically reduce the workload for the rest of the D corps.
 

Buds17

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Nov 29, 2015
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Should be a good chance to still get all of the players on either special teams unit (Carrick might be the exception on D, perhaps one of the forwards? - the LW that isn't Marleau/Hyman/Johnsson). Not sure if the 11F, 7D setup would work best, particularly for any length of time.
 

Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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I've been for giving our big guys extra shifts on the fourth line given our scoring depth. Being able to ambush an opponent fourth line with one of our four elite talents is for sure a tactical weapon worth considering.

The reason it's usually not done is because even if you drop an elite talent in a surprise shift on the fourth line, his linemates are usually not good enough to utilize it. Ours should be.

This can be used regardless of whether we go with 12/6 or 11/7, though.
 

Wafflewhipper

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Jan 18, 2014
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Lindholm is a multi tool center apparently. He has been getting a more well rounded game year by year now for three years as far as i can percieve.

Sounds like a solid player in no B.S reviews i have read.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Imagine we converted William Nylander into a RHD Erik Karlsson type offensive defenseman and PPQB... problem solved.
 

Peasy

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May 25, 2012
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Just change something with the D pairings for the love of God. It was painful watching Hainsey play top pairing and never trying anyone else there.
 
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tom leafers

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Imagine we converted William Nylander into a RHD Erik Karlsson type offensive defenseman and PPQB... problem solved.

giphy.gif
 
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Joel Ward

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I think it really depends on whether you are concerned about how many minutes our defenders are playing, or the QOC they are playing against.
 

NoTouchIcing

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Feb 3, 2010
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we struggling to find 6 nhl Ds, finding 7 is even harder, some nights it looks like we dont even have 3 good nhl Dmen...if we have 7 good nhl defenders, playing them all would be an idea to think about
The point is, you wouldn't. You could reign in the TOI as the game progresses.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

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Dec 18, 2015
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I thought in the playoffs, that having a 7th Dman, would be beneficial. Games are intense and it seems to take of a physical on the Dmen. If Dmen is penalized it doesn't mess up the pairing as much having the 7th guy. Plus if a unnamed Dman has a bad game seven, he can be replaced.

Even during the regular season, maybe it help a player(s) to get some minute as opposed to sitting weeks on end.
 

ninetyone

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Jul 12, 2018
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didn't read the Atheltic article but I think it's ridiculous to plan around 11/7 unless it's a one-off due to injury or some occasional match-up situation. Between lefty/righty and partner familiarity and consistency/chemistry among the forward lines, it makes little sense.

The 4th line wingers will be pretty good so swapping out Lindholm (or Gauthier or whomever) with one of Matthews/Tavares/Kadri on the road, to avoid a match-up or taken advantage of one, will surely happen. But that would be strategic and rare and opportunistic.

On the defense side, having 7 mediocre vs. 6 mediocre defenders won't make much of a difference except to confuse things. It's not like the Leafs (or any other team) have "specialists" - offensively/defensively/PK/PP that can't play in other situations - especially with a 3rd pairing of Carrick-Dermott who are both young AND versatile.


In short - NOPE
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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This was proposed in The Athletic, and I think it's a pretty interesting solution to the group as it is right now. Do we need a 4th line centre when we can give Matthews, Tavares, and Kadri a little more icetime?

Glad to see it. I have been banging that same drum since they signed Tavares, and as it makes complete sense, I knew that smart sports journalists like Tulloch would be coming to the same conclusion at the same time Tulloch.

The reasons for going 11F 7D are two-fold. There is simply not enough TOI to split between our forwards and will lead to endless frustration and annoyance. On the D end our 6D are run too hard. Especially Hainsey and Zaitsev on the PK - and now with Polak gone that will be even worse. Hainsey is going to have a heart attack one of these games when he is near the end of a 5-minute PK for which he has been out the whole time. If only there was a better way?? A better way that Tampa has been using.

Who are the Leafs going to run this year?

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Borgman/Rosen - Carrick/Russian guy/Holl

Guess who is PKing there? Hainsey and Zaitsev - no matter how run down they are. For about 5 games until Babcock demands another D who can put on the PK. This is why Polak was brought in last year.

So in reality this year the Leafs are going to run:

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Marincin - Carrick/Russian guy/Holl

There are only a couple ways around this.

The magical unicorn equivalent belief that the Leafs are going to trade for a top-4 defensive specialist RHD or the Leafs run 7 D which allows them to add a PK specialist and allows upcoming D to challenge for the bottom pairing role without requiring Babcock to trust them on the PK.

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Borgman/Rosen - Carrick/Holl/Russian Guy
Marincin

This is what I wrote several days ago:

"Running 11 F and 7 D is definitely where I seem to get no support. The Leafs have many talented forwards who are begging for more ice time, and D who are run to the point of exhaustion. Yet, next year we will be complaining that Matthews is 110th in ice time or something, and Tavares is getting 2 or 3 minutes less than when he was as an Islander, and Marner would be a 100 point forward if only he was getting similar ice-time to other top wingers instead of 16 minutes a game. The solution will be that the fourth line should get less and less ice time instead simply dropping one forward. At the same time we can't find room among our 6 D to give offensive D like Holl another shot because he doesn't PK and they already have Hainsey playing 85% of PK time and Zaitsev playing almost as much, but they can't add in a D who is solid at the PK to give them a break - Marincin - because he is not strong enough at ES. "
 

Hope Bringer

Registered User
Jan 6, 2010
304
19
I do think it's pretty unlikely that we end up going this route, but another aspect that I like about this is the need to try various pairings to find what works best. We've seen Rielly and Gardiner excel when put together (albeit small sample); we've seen Dermott being brought in and seamlessly fitting into the makeup of our team, carrying a useless Polak and dominating lesser pairings with Carrick (and Holl); and we know Hainsey and Zaitsev are in over their heads right now.

We haven't really gotten to see Zaitsev outside of being paired with Mo or Jake, and one has to wonder whether he'd be more capable anchoring the 3rd pairing, and being used as a puck rusher instead of a puck mover (which he fails at).

Obviously a lot of this falls onto Babcock, but I have little doubts that Dubas and co. aren't looking at this as a possible solution. And of course, ideally, we land a capable top 4 RD, but that seems more and more like it won't be the case going into the season.
 

meefer

Registered User
Jun 9, 2015
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6 yes, 7 no.

Gardiner and Rielly (they've played well together before and can offer 23/25 min/game, coupled with Matthews or JT and that is an elite 5)
Dermott and Zaitsev (a bit worrisome, but if Dermott continues to improve and Z bounces back, coupled with the chance to play with Matthews or JT...18/20 min/game)
Hainsey and Carrick (saves Hainsey for the PK, Carrick is under rated IMO and offers Hainsey an option other than the boards, playing vs other teams 3rd and 4th lines shouldn't hurt too badly 15 min/game)
Borg/Rosen/Marincin/Holl as required.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
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Imagine we converted William Nylander into a RHD Erik Karlsson type offensive defenseman and PPQB... problem solved.
Imagine how many pucks him would not want to get there to make a play. He would get supper exposed as he hates taking checks to make plays and D man have to be willing to do so. Opponents would simply dump the puck in his side and retrieve the puck most times thus establishing puck possession behind the Leafs goal line.

No thanks.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
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Toronto
Why don't writers or fans think these things through?

This means you could lose an extra forward in the process:

Definitely:

Jooris
Grundstrom
Lindholm
Ennis
Leivo

Possibly:

Kapanen

^Yes I know all these guys won't play, but the reason all that depth is here is to have the best fit play .

You can't play 7D because it's fun to double shift star players in EA NHL 19, that a Gardiner-Rielly pairing might be fun, or that you can't decide which 6 defensemen to play each night.
 
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