Pre-Game Talk: 11/1 vs Chicago

TheNumber4

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And my point, like it has been from the start, is that if Puljujarvi wants to play in the top 6 he can start by playing better than Drake freaking Caggiula, which really shouldn't be that difficult for someone of his readily apparent talent.

Until he manages that he can stay below him on the depth chart.

Yup and he gets to have that chance tonight. We all saw what Caggs did on the 3rd line, drew some penalties, scored some goals, played with energy and tenacity, didn’t make any egregious mistakes. If Pulju could do that he’ll be moved up pretty soon.
 

GameChanger

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What makes more sense? Assess a players game and contributions over a couple games or assess it over a period or two. Take the larger sample size and it’s no mystery why the coaches think maybe he’s worth more of a look.

I was actually hoping the larger sample size would turn to Pulju's advantage, but this is how it went and it's okay. Anyway, Puljujarvi hasn't had many shifts with McDavid this year and he scored a goal, and didn't he score a goal in his last shift with McD last season, too? You may correct me if I'm wrong and he had some shifts after that. In any case, as you said one day Pulju will get another look there and it'll be interesting to see how it goes. I can never wish a failure to anyone so hopefully Cags will use his chance even if it means Pulju will have to wait longer.
 

Little Fury

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And my point, like it has been from the start, is that if Puljujarvi wants to play in the top 6 he can start by playing better than Drake freaking Caggiula, which really shouldn't be that difficult for someone of his readily apparent talent.

Until he manages that he can stay below him on the depth chart.

I've already stated why this is dumb. Beyond dumb, actually. A team that is bereft of skill on the wings is intentionally suppressing a talented young player to make some kind of point while giving an inferior player repeated chances to fail.
 

TheNumber4

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I was actually hoping the larger sample size would turn to Pulju's advantage, but this is how it went and it's okay. Anyway, Puljujarvi hasn't had many shifts with McDavid this year and he scored a goal, and didn't he score a goal in his last shift with McD last season, too? You may correct me if I'm wrong and he had some shifts after that. In any case, as you said one day Pulju will get another look there and it'll be interesting to see how it goes. I can never wish a failure to anyone so hopefully Cags will use his chance even if it means Pulju will have to wait longer.

I think Oilers fans should be happy we saw some life out of Caggs and he was a difference maker. He finally showed flashes of why we all voted him as our most likely bonafide NHL bottom 6er in 16-17 (I made a poll thread in that year). And yet here are people who want to shit on the contributions we’ve been hoping from him just to gift Pulju minutes.
 

Little Fury

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I think Oilers fans should be happy we saw some life out of Caggs and he was a difference maker. He finally showed flashes of why we all voted him as our most likely bonafide NHL bottom 6er in 16-17 (I made a poll thread in that year). And yet here are people who want to **** on the contributions we’ve been hoping from him just to gift Pulju minutes.

I'm fine with Drake Caggiula, bottom sixer. But that's not really the issue here.
 

GameChanger

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I think Oilers fans should be happy we saw some life out of Caggs and he was a difference maker. He finally showed flashes of why we all voted him as our most likely bonafide NHL bottom 6er in 16-17 (I made a poll thread in that year). And yet here are people who want to **** on the contributions we’ve been hoping from him just to gift Pulju minutes.

I think your word gift is not the best possible in this one, as he's showed some great chemistry with McD and putting a top prospect to a position to succeed isn't always "gifting" in a bad way. Of course on the condition that it's good for the team.

Anyway, Caggiula is still a relatively young guy and he's had some good games, too, which people forget too easily. That's just how it goes when a player has a quieter game, trust me I've seen that with Jesse. Most of the time Caggiula hasn't been very productive, but he can be and become a solid piece in a good team if he manages to bring his best more often. He's not too old to keep developing in that.
 

TheNumber4

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I'm fine with Drake Caggiula, bottom sixer. But that's not really the issue here.

And like I said situationally and most likely temporarily were in a position where we need to play Drake the bottom sixer in a top six role. If Rattie (who has top 6 offensive talent and a history of working on McDavids wing) wasn’t injured we probably wouldn’t be seeing this Caggs situation. And Pulju vs Caggs is so debatable and not at all a sure fire decision one way or the other, I don’t know why your getting so worked up about it.

Your username definately checks out though lol.
 

Little Fury

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And like I said situationally and most likely temporarily were in a position where we need to play Drake the bottom sixer in a top six role. If Rattie (who has top 6 offensive talent and a history of working on McDavids wing) wasn’t injured we probably wouldn’t be seeing this Caggs situation. And Pulju vs Caggs is so debatable and not at all a sure fire decision one way or the other, I don’t know why your getting so worked up about it.

Your username definately checks out though lol.

I agree with you it's a stop gap till rattie is back. But the bigger issue is the reluctance to give Jp any time with McDavid even as rattie, Yamomoto and Caggiula all get looks there. It doesn't bode well.
 
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GameChanger

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And like I said situationally and most likely temporarily were in a position where we need to play Drake the bottom sixer in a top six role. If Rattie (who has top 6 offensive talent and a history of working on McDavids wing) wasn’t injured we probably wouldn’t be seeing this Caggs situation. And Pulju vs Caggs is so debatable and not at all a sure fire decision one way or the other, I don’t know why your getting so worked up about it.

Your username definately checks out though lol.

My last message for this topic, but I don't know if it should be debatable. Pulju's numbers with McDavid have been good and they scored a goal in the few moments they had together this season, so I really think Pulju would've been an obvious choice there.

But there are times when I feel Caggiula gets too much ***t. I understand his ES production may not be very high, but like you said he can be a good or even very good bottom6 piece at his very best. It's just that he needs to be able to play at his best more often, like Pulju does too.
 

TheNumber4

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I agree with you it's a stop gap till rattie is back. But the bigger issue is the reluctance to give Jp any time with McDavid even as rattie, Yamomoto and Caggiula all get looks there. It doesn't bode well.

Every player you’ve mentioned there has contributed in positive ways outside of scoring. Pulju has that exact same opportunity to do just that. Draw a penalty, cause a turnover, backcheck hard and break up an opposition scoring chance, create a dangerous scoring chance, win a board battle, don’t make head scratching decisions on the ice... If Caggs and Yamo can do this away from McDavid, Pulju should be able to too. Puljus destiny is in Puljus hands, all we as Oilers fans can do is just sit back and see if he can do the above listed, if he does he’ll get his chance.

On Rattie he was given that opportunity late last year, and everyone saw him make the most of it and working really well with McDavid and Nuge. If he didn’t produce consistently on the 1st line, he might it even be an NHLer this year, so you can’t make the argument his time was unearned. That momentum from last year carried right into the preseason this year. There should be no confusion as to why he gets opportunities on that first line,
 
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Little Fury

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Every player you’ve mentioned there has contributed in positive ways outside of scoring. Pulju has that exact same opportunity to do just that. Draw a penalty, cause a turnover, backcheck hard and break up an opposition scoring chance, create a dangerous scoring chance, win a board battle, don’t make head scratching decisions on the ice... If Caggs and Yamo can do this away from McDavid, Pulju should be able to too. Puljus destiny is in Puljus hands, all we as Oilers fans can do is just sit back and see if he can do the above listed, if he does he’ll get his chance.

I disagree. He needs to be put in a position to have success, gain confidence and not feel like any mistake is going to end up with him watching the game from on high. If they aren't going to to play him with talented players who can also cover for his lapses the way McDavid and Nuge can, they should send him to Bako to play big minutes there because he's not going to learn a thing spending 9 minutes a night watching Lucic fumble passes.
 
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TheNumber4

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I disagree. He needs to be put in a position to have success, gain confidence and not feel like any mistake is going to end up with him watching the game from on high. If they aren't going to to play him with talented players who can also cover for his lapses the way McDavid and Nuge can, they should send him to Bako to play big minutes there because he's not going to learn a thing spending 9 minutes a night watching Lucic fumble passes.

It does NOT take unaccountable responsibility free top 6 minutes to show he can backcheck hard, win board battles, draw penalties, not make mistakes, be in the right spots on the ice, etc etc. Players with lesser tools than Pulju do this on a nightly basis in the NHL. Nothing is stopping Pulju from showing he can do the same. 10 minutes a night or 20 minutes a night. Playing with a generational superstar shouldn’t be what’s NEEDED for a player to show those basics of being an effective NHLer.
 

TheNumber4

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I think your word gift is not the best possible in this one, as he's showed some great chemistry with McD and putting a top prospect to a position to succeed isn't always "gifting" in a bad way. Of course on the condition that it's good for the team.

Anyway, Caggiula is still a relatively young guy and he's had some good games, too, which people forget too easily. That's just how it goes when a player has a quieter game, trust me I've seen that with Jesse. Most of the time Caggiula hasn't been very productive, but he can be and become a solid piece in a good team if he manages to bring his best more often. He's not too old to keep developing in that.

Those McDavid minutes were such a small sample size, and besides it’s not all about that. The coaches and many fans want to see what he can do away from the puck. What we ask is very reasonable. There’s zero reason why Pulju can’t show other positive signs aside from scoring on a 3rd line role. Being on the 3rd line doesn’t stop him from backchecking hard, winning board battles, forecheck with full efffort, drawing penalties, being in the right places, etc etc. Puljus path to success in the NHL is laid out right in front of him, tonight he can decide whether to do those little things or not. Simple as that in my mind.
 

Little Fury

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It does NOT take unaccountable responsibility free top 6 minutes to show he can backcheck hard, win board battles, draw penalties, not make mistakes, be in the right spots on the ice, etc etc. Players with lesser tools than Pulju do this on a nightly basis in the NHL. Nothing is stopping Pulju from showing he can do the same. 10 minutes a night or 20 minutes a night. Playing with a generational superstar shouldn’t be what’s NEEDED for a player to show those basics of being an effective NHLer.

WTF?
 
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TheNumber4

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Well if you are going to advocate that he gets minutes with McDavid and Nuge with free reign to make mistakes without showing the basics that can be shown easily in a bottom 6 role that’s exactly what it sounds like that.
 

fireantz

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Based on the way they have handled Bouchard over the last few games, I am pretty sure hes getting sent back. Prepare to watch Benning for the whole season.
They are stretching Bouchard’s time, waiting on Bear who hasn’t played in 2 weeks due to injury
 

Little Fury

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Well if you are going to advocate that he gets minutes with McDavid and Nuge with free reign to make mistakes without showing the basics that can be shown easily in a bottom 6 role that’s exactly what it sounds like that.

Since you mention it, I think young players should be allowed to take risks and make mistakes as part of their development. That's not the same thing as being "responsibility-free."
 

McDNicks17

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Since you mention it, I think young players should be allowed to take risks and make mistakes as part of their development. That's not the same thing as being "responsibility-free."

They should, but there's a point where you can't just let them go out there and make the same mistakes over and over too.
 
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TheNumber4

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Since you mention it, I think young players should be allowed to take risks and make mistakes as part of their development. That's not the same thing as being "responsibility-free."

100 Games Played in the NHL while coaches and fans still have almost the exact same concerns with his game since his issues in the AHL says that maybe just maybe there’s been some leeway for his mistakes.
 

Little Fury

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They should, but there's a point where you can't just let them go out there and make the same mistakes over and over too.

They keep putting him in the same situation and keep bringing the whip down when it doesn't work. Maybe it's time to try something else?
 

Little Fury

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100 Games Played in the NHL while coaches and fans still have almost the exact same concerns with his game since his issues in the AHL says that maybe just maybe there’s been some leeway for his mistakes.

Well, I'm of the belief that he shouldn't even have that number of GP. his development so far has been a clusterf**k.

I'm not absolving the player here, far from it. He's incredibly frustrating. I don't think he's been put in a great spot though.
 

TheNumber4

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Well, I'm of the belief that he shouldn't even have that number of GP. his development so far has been a clusterf**k.

I'm not absolving the player here, far from it. He's incredibly frustrating. I don't think he's been put in a great spot though.

There’s a debate there for sure. Should he have been brought up while issues were still apparent in his AHL game and he didn’t even tear the AHL up. Usually a player gets brought up when it’s become apparent they can go POint per game at the AHL level. Pulju didn’t get to that point. On the flip side of that though, if Oilers fans weren’t complaining about his NHL deployment back then they were complaining about him not being up. The consensus was that he should be brought up back then, even I was guilty of this, going so far as to blame our AHL coach for making him focus on his game away from the puck too much instead of just turning him into an offensive powerhouse.

Also sometimes players spend time in the AHL to work on physical aspects of their game. Like foot speed, or size, or shot or something. Pulju already has these tools in spades. So the question is, where would be best to learn the Xs and Os or mental aspect of the game, maybe it’s the NHL, maybe AHL there’s a debate there.

But if it’s decided that it’s NHL, he has to earn the minutes in ways that he can definately show in a 3rd line role.
 

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