GDT: 11/04/2019 | Game 16 | Red Wings vs. Predators | 7:30 EST | FSD+

[Winger98]

Jimmy and Bernier aren't playing very good hockey either. I didn't like the second or third goal and guess what the night is over. We can talk about how badly they played and the second and third were an abomination, but key in that was goalies that couldn't be asked to make some even difficult saves. They do get some passes at times, but we are allowing 5 goals a game and while I don't like the quality of chances at some point you're paid to make a save.

I am low on excuses for this team right now.

I am not sure canning Blash is going to make a difference at all, but I am curious what Yzerman does when he gets back from Finland. I said this a couple weeks ago, but man this reminds me of that season Colorado had a couple years ago where they finished in the basement by a country mile.

And then ended up drafting 4th.

I think there will be a bounce up if Blash is fired, but it's what we usually see when coaches get canned. We'll know if Yzerman really cares about the team being better if he finds a way to bring in better players.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And then ended up drafting 4th.

I think there will be a bounce up if Blash is fired, but it's what we usually see when coaches get canned. We'll know if Yzerman really cares about the team being better if he finds a way to bring in better players.

I don't think that was his plan for this year at all, he made that clear way back in July.

Now he should be active at the deadline and this summer.

He is evaluating and a lot of guys are failing that evaluation right now. So I will be curious to see what he does, but I don't think this is particularly shocking for them to watch. I mean we all hoped to be more competitive, but we are not a good hockey team and winning this year wasn't ever really the goal in my opinion.

 

[Winger98]

I don't think that was his plan for this year at all, he made that clear way back in July.

Now he should be active at the deadline and this summer.

He is evaluating and a lot of guys are failing that evaluation right now. So I will be curious to see what he does, but I don't think this is particularly shocking for them to watch. I mean we all hoped to be more competitive, but we are not a good hockey team and winning this year wasn't ever really the goal in my opinion.

I don't think he planned this team to be competitive, but I'm not sure he planned on it being a tire fire, either. I don't think they'll look to move many prospects up, and I think their trade options are pretty limited. Firing Blashill will deflect attention for a bit, but this team will still be awful. Or maybe we'll deal another prospect for an organizational depth guy to cut loose at the end of the year.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seems as though Boston was the only successful rebuild on the fly or retool.

Bruins have done a good job but still have an aging core and they've missed the playoffs a couple of times which helps in a re-tooling effort since it's re-stocks the cupboard with assets.

That's just not a position that holds much strength,
Holland didn't even start talking about "rebuild on the fly" until 2015 or so - 4-5 seasons after such talk had any point.
The time to rebuild while being competitive was after the loss of Hossa. Or at least Rafalski. WHile you still had elite players good enough to hold the fort while youngsters or replacements learned new roles.
Maybe our youth movement sucked at the time... but Modano, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Salei. Alfredsson. Brad Richards. Colaicovo. Quincey. Legwand. Cole. Samuelsson. Zidlicky. Etc. Etc. Etc.
All the signings that amounted to zero.
All the signings that cost youth much needed experience. All the trades that cost us picks or prospects and put our own prospects on the back burner.

We simply didn't have the youth. You can't invent a youth movement out of thin air. It comes from drafting a lot, and usually drafting high. We hadn't done that in 20 years so there was no large pool of youth to draw from. A few kids could have been brought up instead of veteran signings but if you think that affected where we are now I simply can't agree with your view of how the sport works.

The biggest problem for why we are here is we have only 2 players on our roster from the 04-11 drafts. These are players that are between ~26 and ~33 years old today, prime hockey players, established veterans. To only have Abby and Helm to show from that period puts us in this position.

 

[turkleton85]

Bruins have done a good job but still have an aging core and they've missed the playoffs a couple of times which helps in a re-tooling effort since it's re-stocks the cupboard with assets.


We simply didn't have the youth. You can't invent a youth movement out of thin air. It comes from drafting a lot, and usually drafting high. We hadn't done that in 20 years so there was no large pool of youth to draw from. A few kids could have been brought up instead of veteran signings but if you think that affected where we are now I simply can't agree with your view of how the sport works.

The biggest problem for why we are here is we have only 2 players on our roster from the 04-11 drafts. These are players that are between ~26 and ~33 years old today, prime hockey players, established veterans. To only have Abby and Helm to show from that period puts us in this position.

if those two players are abdelkader and helm, you actually have only 1 functioning hockey player from that time frame, and he's a 3rd liner at best (helm that is, of course)

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

For all of the griping about Holland, and all of the griping about how this team sucks, I'm waiting for the cognitive leap towards maybe Holland not being entirely wrong in trying to keep the team mildly competitive while rebuilding. Especially with the draft lotto being so disadvantageous to totally bottoming out.

I don't think Holland was entirely wrong, but you got to admit that it is a pretty monumental task with a high degree of difficulty. I can't say I am surprised that he landed on his back. To stay somewhat competitive you need to acquire a certain critical mass of impactful veterans while you wait on younger players to development. You invariably find yourself in our current predicament where the only assets with any trade value are the assets you cannot afford to part with. These vets almost always come with a premium, especially when you are asking them to sign on a team in decline. In addition, age eventually catches up with everyone driving the vets you signed to be contributors, further and further down the roster. At the end of the day you are left with some expensive vets who aren't doing a whole hell of a lot for you team while you wait on young guys to develop and take over.

I have always maintained a very deterministic outlook on this organization. We were going to be in this position at some point no matter what. The only things I can think of that may have changed this trajectory were: a) moving Pav, Z, Franzen (and Lids) as they got older (while SOP for most teams this obviously wasn't going to happen with the streak), and b) doing better with our first-round/first-picks after the 2004/2005 work stoppage. I think b) would have given us some more meaningful trade capital with which to improve the team laterally while a) would have gotten us better picks and prospects earlier.

Anyways, I am not going to fight it any longer. We are where we are supposed to be.

 

[Retire91]

For all of the griping about Holland, and all of the griping about how this team sucks, I'm waiting for the cognitive leap towards maybe Holland not being entirely wrong in trying to keep the team mildly competitive while rebuilding. Especially with the draft lotto being so disadvantageous to totally bottoming out.

I get your point I really do, but I don't agree with it for a couple of reasons. There was going to be nothing to show for it because the roster was too depleted to be a legit cup contender. I know everyone points to that chicago series but still all it took was for Chicago to wake up to clean out the wings and even if the wings get a lucky bounce they get DESTROYED at the next level. I really don't understand the point of going for it when your team is clearly missing the talent necessary to get it done. There are a couple of seasons when lidstrom was still around and Franzen was still healthy that were questionable, but after lidstrom choosing not to rebuild was going to be harmful to the organization and it was easy to see. We had players like Abby and Cleary in our top lines and an aging number two defenseman with nothing but KFQ down the roster, I really don't need to go much further into specifics to know that is not a cup contending roster.

If the wings had rebuilt at that time it was before the league overhauled draft lotteries, not to mention when the wings finally did get into the lottery it was during expansion and we were constantly bumped back by expansion teams. Sure maybe its one spot but the difference between #5 and #6 can be enormous. You also have to take into account that holland traded away prospects and picks to keep the streak alive. Now each individual move itself does not hurt but what if we still had those picks what if Jarnkrok was still with us, he has turned into a pretty decent bottom sixer. Also your organizational focus would be finding young talent for a new core and not on signing a new vet each season to fill stop gaps. We also would have known who was going to bust like Smith Jurco further in advanced because their play time and development wouldn't be blocked by Vets trying to get us into a wild card slot. Your contract management is focused on staying competitive and signing average talent to top 6 roles long term. The whole system was the wrong direction and this season is one of the prices the organization is paying for it. Now when the rebuild is finally here you are really working with a few bits and pieces and you are dealing with a new lottery system that is even less of a guarantee talent coming your way.

I could take 5-8 more seasons of this if its what it takes to actually get cup window level talent. But the disappointment comes from the realization that those 5-8 seasons could already be behind us if the organization faced reality and rebuilt when they should have. Instead all we have to show for it is a declining slope of endless offseason frustration with a bunch of Abby highlights. Sorry but no way Holland gets praise for what he has done to this team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If the wings had rebuilt at that time

Yes, like you can just push a button and suddenly you're getting top 5 picks.

Only thing blowing it up in 2012 would have accomplished would have been to extend this period of sucking. You can't fast-track a rebuild and the less young assets you have when the rebuild is started, the longer it's gonna take. Starting a rebuild in 2012 when our best prospect was... Jarnkrok? XO? Sproul? And AA? F*ckin' ouch.

It's a small miracle we assembled as much talent between 2013 and 2016 as we did. And it's going to make this rebuilding process go a lot faster than it otherwise would have.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I get your point I really do, but I don't agree with it for a couple of reasons. There was going to be nothing to show for it because the roster was too depleted to be a legit cup contender. I know everyone points to that chicago series but still all it took was for Chicago to wake up to clean out the wings and even if the wings get a lucky bounce they get DESTROYED at the next level. I really don't understand the point of going for it when your team is clearly missing the talent necessary to get it done. There are a couple of seasons when lidstrom was still around and Franzen was still healthy that were questionable, but after lidstrom choosing not to rebuild was going to be harmful to the organization and it was easy to see. We had players like Abby and Cleary in our top lines and an aging number two defenseman with nothing but KFQ down the roster, I really don't need to go much further into specifics to know that is not a cup contending roster.

If the wings had rebuilt at that time it was before the league overhauled draft lotteries, not to mention when the wings finally did get into the lottery it was during expansion and we were constantly bumped back by expansion teams. Sure maybe its one spot but the difference between #5 and #6 can be enormous. You also have to take into account that holland traded away prospects and picks to keep the streak alive. Now each individual move itself does not hurt but what if we still had those picks what if Jarnkrok was still with us, he has turned into a pretty decent bottom sixer. Also your organizational focus would be finding young talent for a new core and not on signing a new vet each season to fill stop gaps. We also would have known who was going to bust like Smith Jurco further in advanced because their play time and development wouldn't be blocked by Vets trying to get us into a wild card slot. Your contract management is focused on staying competitive and signing average talent to top 6 roles long term. The whole system was the wrong direction and this season is one of the prices the organization is paying for it. Now when the rebuild is finally here you are really working with a few bits and pieces and you are dealing with a new lottery system that is even less of a guarantee talent coming your way.

I could take 5-8 more seasons of this if its what it takes to actually get cup window level talent. But the disappointment comes from the realization that those 5-8 seasons could already be behind us if the organization faced reality and rebuilt when they should have. Instead all we have to show for it is a declining slope of endless offseason frustration with a bunch of Abby highlights. Sorry but no way Holland gets praise for what he has done to this team.

There’s a difference between having a team that can compete on the ice and competing for championships. You can make moves that aren’t at the expense of your future assets to have a team who competes relatively well on a nightly basis. A team like last year, losing a lot, but doing so in relatively close fashion.

That is not what we have this year. There wasn’t an attempt to put veteran support around the young players, there was bringing in washed vets or never-will-be young players who can occupy a position of the lineup. I think that’s the point that was trying to be made.

It took Holland way too long to finally “stand pat” and let things fall how they may in a season, and he instead continued to toss out futures for minor short term gains. But every season when we heard the fans complaining about committing money to more veterans, like Alfredsson, like Vanek, it has become apparent this year how crucial it was to have those type of players around to make sure the team didn’t descend into the bowels of hell where we are now.

In a sense, he does deserve credit for maintaining a competitive culture for the young players we did bring up and develop, but at the same time, he also deserves grief for treating prospects and draft picks as trade capital more than potential foundational building blocks, either as future role players or key players.

 

[MBH]

Bruins have done a good job but still have an aging core and they've missed the playoffs a couple of times which helps in a re-tooling effort since it's re-stocks the cupboard with assets.


We simply didn't have the youth. You can't invent a youth movement out of thin air. It comes from drafting a lot, and usually drafting high. We hadn't done that in 20 years so there was no large pool of youth to draw from. A few kids could have been brought up instead of veteran signings but if you think that affected where we are now I simply can't agree with your view of how the sport works.

The biggest problem for why we are here is we have only 2 players on our roster from the 04-11 drafts. These are players that are between ~26 and ~33 years old today, prime hockey players, established veterans. To only have Abby and Helm to show from that period puts us in this position.

That's debateable.
2011 - Jurco, XO, Marchenko, Sproul, Backman. All washed out of here and only Jurco is still in the NHL.
2010. Jarnkrok. Sheahan. Mrazek. Still in the NHL
2009. Tatar and Jensen in the NHL.
2008, Nyquist in the NHL.

I'd rather be looking at 26 year old XO on our third pairing than Trevor f***ing Daley. Period.
I'd rather have had Jurco and Pulkkinen take regular shifts in our top 9 and PP instead of Helm and Abdelkader. Period.
Would they have developed differently? Nobody knows.
And even if they had, it's not clear they would have helped change the course of our history..

But right now for our team, I'd prefer this over what we've got.

Athanasiou Larkin Mantha
Bertuzzi Jarnkrok Jurco
Jurco Sheahan Pulkkinen
Helm Glendening Abdelkader

Dekeyser-Green
XO-Hronek
Cholowski-Marchenko

Mrazek/Whoever

 

[Winger98]

Appreciate the responses and I don't feel like I'm doing a good job of hashing out what I'm trying to piece together in my head. With my original post that spawned these replies, I was thinking more of the past few years but can definitely understand how it was interpreted into the past 8 or so. That's entirely on me. Still, Holland's repeated musings that rebuilds are unpredictable and difficult have proven to be pretty right. And we've seen teams not really be rewarded for being awful for long stretches. Of the four or five teams who have accumulated fewer points than us over the past three years, I think there's like one 1st overall pick and a handful of top3 picks out of a possible 15 or so. A lot of teams had horrible seasons, only to fall back in the draft to go after guys like Barret Hayton and Alex Nylander. Not necessarily bad players, but also not the picks where those teams were expecting to have to make.

I don't think Holland was entirely wrong, but you got to admit that it is a pretty monumental task with a high degree of difficulty. I can't say I am surprised that he landed on his back. To stay somewhat competitive you need to acquire a certain critical mass of impactful veterans while you wait on younger players to development. You invariably find yourself in our current predicament where the only assets with any trade value are the assets you cannot afford to part with. These vets almost always come with a premium, especially when you are asking them to sign on a team in decline. In addition, age eventually catches up with everyone driving the vets you signed to be contributors, further and further down the roster. At the end of the day you are left with some expensive vets who aren't doing a whole hell of a lot for you team while you wait on young guys to develop and take over.

I have always maintained a very deterministic outlook on this organization. We were going to be in this position at some point no matter what. The only things I can think of that may have changed this trajectory were: a) moving Pav, Z, Franzen (and Lids) as they got older (while SOP for most teams this obviously wasn't going to happen with the streak), and b) doing better with our first-round/first-picks after the 2004/2005 work stoppage. I think b) would have given us some more meaningful trade capital with which to improve the team laterally while a) would have gotten us better picks and prospects earlier.

Anyways, I am not going to fight it any longer. We are where we are supposed to be.

I'm with you, I think a rebuild was inevitable, and I'm not saying that Holland couldn't have balanced things a bit better - especially towards the last couple of years of the streak where dealing guys like Gator and/or Helm probably could have netted some returns that could have gave the team a head start on this actual rebuild. But over the past couple of years we (myself included) have griped about signings like Daley, Green, Nielsen, etc., wanting the team to just go all in on the tank. Yzerman has came in and essentially did that. He signed a couple of vets to fill out the roster,but clearly downgraded from last year without really trying to find equal replacements for Kronwall and Nyquist. And now we're realizing just how awful this can be.

@The Zetterberg Era has mentioned being reminded how Colorado was similarly awful a few years ago, easily finishing worst in the league...and I pointed out how they still drafted 4th that year. They still got a really good player, getting a bit lucky in the process, but would we think the same this year missing on Lafreniere and Byfield? And I know someone has mentioned it elsewhere how it seems more and more really good players are being taken throughout the first round, though fewer are now sprinkled into the later rounds. On other words, scouting is just getting better.

This is a long way of saying that tanking might not be as great a method of building a new team as it appears, and not descending entirely into the basement might have its own upsides.

I get your point I really do, but I don't agree with it for a couple of reasons. There was going to be nothing to show for it because the roster was too depleted to be a legit cup contender. I know everyone points to that chicago series but still all it took was for Chicago to wake up to clean out the wings and even if the wings get a lucky bounce they get DESTROYED at the next level. I really don't understand the point of going for it when your team is clearly missing the talent necessary to get it done. There are a couple of seasons when lidstrom was still around and Franzen was still healthy that were questionable, but after lidstrom choosing not to rebuild was going to be harmful to the organization and it was easy to see. We had players like Abby and Cleary in our top lines and an aging number two defenseman with nothing but KFQ down the roster, I really don't need to go much further into specifics to know that is not a cup contending roster.

If the wings had rebuilt at that time it was before the league overhauled draft lotteries, not to mention when the wings finally did get into the lottery it was during expansion and we were constantly bumped back by expansion teams. Sure maybe its one spot but the difference between #5 and #6 can be enormous. You also have to take into account that holland traded away prospects and picks to keep the streak alive. Now each individual move itself does not hurt but what if we still had those picks what if Jarnkrok was still with us, he has turned into a pretty decent bottom sixer. Also your organizational focus would be finding young talent for a new core and not on signing a new vet each season to fill stop gaps. We also would have known who was going to bust like Smith Jurco further in advanced because their play time and development wouldn't be blocked by Vets trying to get us into a wild card slot. Your contract management is focused on staying competitive and signing average talent to top 6 roles long term. The whole system was the wrong direction and this season is one of the prices the organization is paying for it. Now when the rebuild is finally here you are really working with a few bits and pieces and you are dealing with a new lottery system that is even less of a guarantee talent coming your way.

I could take 5-8 more seasons of this if its what it takes to actually get cup window level talent. But the disappointment comes from the realization that those 5-8 seasons could already be behind us if the organization faced reality and rebuilt when they should have. Instead all we have to show for it is a declining slope of endless offseason frustration with a bunch of Abby highlights. Sorry but no way Holland gets praise for what he has done to this team.

I don't think it's so much going for it, as just not allowing the team to fall entirely into the basement. As I said above, I'm not saying Holland couldn't have found a better balance for a number of those years. And I'm not saying Holland should be given unconditional praise for his last six or seven years; though, I think the last couple of years here he did a very good job of balancing the rebuild with trying to ice at least a competitive team. And by competitive I don't mean cup contending or even playoff contending, just a team that consistently goes out and puts up a fight and has good, hard fought games. They don't get destroyed night in and night out.

I don't think it's realistic to have expected this team to do a hard rebuild 8 years ago, though. In the 10/11 season, this was a team that was still putting up over 100 points. They went over 100 points in 11/12. They fell to a 95 point pace in the strike shortened season. Should they have done some things differently in those years? Oh yeah, but those were still pretty decent teams. You're not going to see someone tank a 100 point capable team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

That's debateable.
2011 - Jurco, XO, Marchenko, Sproul, Backman. All washed out of here and only Jurco is still in the NHL.
2010. Jarnkrok. Sheahan. Mrazek. Still in the NHL
2009. Tatar and Jensen in the NHL.
2008, Nyquist in the NHL.

I'd rather be looking at 26 year old XO on our third pairing than Trevor ****ing Daley. Period.
I'd rather have had Jurco and Pulkkinen take regular shifts in our top 9 and PP instead of Helm and Abdelkader. Period.
Would they have developed differently? Nobody knows.
And even if they had, it's not clear they would have helped change the course of our history..

But right now for our team, I'd prefer this over what we've got.

Athanasiou Larkin Mantha
Bertuzzi Jarnkrok Jurco
Jurco Sheahan Pulkkinen
Helm Glendening Abdelkader

Dekeyser-Green
XO-Hronek
Cholowski-Marchenko

Mrazek/Whoever

I'm pretty sure if we had that roster, you'd sit here writing up some other alternate-reality roster and say you'd prefer that. Because that roster would still suck, badly.

 

[Retire91]

Appreciate the responses and I don't feel like I'm doing a good job of hashing out what I'm trying to piece together in my head. With my original post that spawned these replies, I was thinking more of the past few years but can definitely understand how it was interpreted into the past 8 or so. That's entirely on me. Still, Holland's repeated musings that rebuilds are unpredictable and difficult have proven to be pretty right. And we've seen teams not really be rewarded for being awful for long stretches. Of the four or five teams who have accumulated fewer points than us over the past three years, I think there's like one 1st overall pick and a handful of top3 picks out of a possible 15 or so. A lot of teams had horrible seasons, only to fall back in the draft to go after guys like Barret Hayton and Alex Nylander. Not necessarily bad players, but also not the picks where those teams were expecting to have to make.



I'm with you, I think a rebuild was inevitable, and I'm not saying that Holland couldn't have balanced things a bit better - especially towards the last couple of years of the streak where dealing guys like Gator and/or Helm probably could have netted some returns that could have gave the team a head start on this actual rebuild. But over the past couple of years we (myself included) have griped about signings like Daley, Green, Nielsen, etc., wanting the team to just go all in on the tank. Yzerman has came in and essentially did that. He signed a couple of vets to fill out the roster,but clearly downgraded from last year without really trying to find equal replacements for Kronwall and Nyquist. And now we're realizing just how awful this can be.

@The Zetterberg Era has mentioned being reminded how Colorado was similarly awful a few years ago, easily finishing worst in the league...and I pointed out how they still drafted 4th that year. They still got a really good player, getting a bit lucky in the process, but would we think the same this year missing on Lafreniere and Byfield? And I know someone has mentioned it elsewhere how it seems more and more really good players are being taken throughout the first round, though fewer are now sprinkled into the later rounds. On other words, scouting is just getting better.

This is a long way of saying that tanking might not be as great a method of building a new team as it appears, and not descending entirely into the basement might have its own upsides.



I don't think it's so much going for it, as just not allowing the team to fall entirely into the basement. As I said above, I'm not saying Holland couldn't have found a better balance for a number of those years. And I'm not saying Holland should be given unconditional praise for his last six or seven years; though, I think the last couple of years here he did a very good job of balancing the rebuild with trying to ice at least a competitive team. And by competitive I don't mean cup contending or even playoff contending, just a team that consistently goes out and puts up a fight and has good, hard fought games. They don't get destroyed night in and night out.

I don't think it's realistic to have expected this team to do a hard rebuild 8 years ago, though. In the 10/11 season, this was a team that was still putting up over 100 points. They went over 100 points in 11/12. They fell to a 95 point pace in the strike shortened season. Should they have done some things differently in those years? Oh yeah, but those were still pretty decent teams. You're not going to see someone tank a 100 point capable team.

I think that argument holds up on paper but when you consider things like nearly your entire production being shouldered by two players and players like Abby and cleary being in your top 6 and power play, and the loser point 100 point teams doesn't make a difference when you ask yourself the question can this team win a cup. If that was the marching order then they needed to retool properly, you don't add players like Modono, Alfredson, Neilson, Green. Those players don't close the gap enough to open a true window. I do understand why the orgnaization went for it but I am not sure the organization itself but especially fans knew what they were in for as a consiquence, and no matter what Holland did in his last few years it does not wash out the damage done by keeping the foot on the gas when the writing was on the wall.

There’s a difference between having a team that can compete on the ice and competing for championships. You can make moves that aren’t at the expense of your future assets to have a team who competes relatively well on a nightly basis. A team like last year, losing a lot, but doing so in relatively close fashion.

That is not what we have this year. There wasn’t an attempt to put veteran support around the young players, there was bringing in washed vets or never-will-be young players who can occupy a position of the lineup. I think that’s the point that was trying to be made.

It took Holland way too long to finally “stand pat” and let things fall how they may in a season, and he instead continued to toss out futures for minor short term gains. But every season when we heard the fans complaining about committing money to more veterans, like Alfredsson, like Vanek, it has become apparent this year how crucial it was to have those type of players around to make sure the team didn’t descend into the bowels of hell where we are now.

In a sense, he does deserve credit for maintaining a competitive culture for the young players we did bring up and develop, but at the same time, he also deserves grief for treating prospects and draft picks as trade capital more than potential foundational building blocks, either as future role players or key players.

that is where I disagree Hollands moves did impact the future, players were not on proper development curves because the roster was tooled up to go for it every season with stop gap venterens in the way and the picks and prospects dolled out to procure those vets sometimes also have an impact. Who knows if maybe Jurco really developed if he was given ice time and not asked to fill a checking roll because the top 6 had clear and Abby. I am not saying he would have for sure but the cost of choosing to go for it over development is that we will never know. You can't have it both ways, you can't keep going for it and filling up the roster with stop gaps and still build a new core. I mean you can but you have to hit a $%^*@ home run, and I mean out of the park in the draft, totally school someone in a trade, and things like signing a Vesna winning goalie from Europe off the waver wire. Holland never traded, and he lost out on notable available UFA.

 

[Hen Kolland]

that is where I disagree Hollands moves did impact the future, players were not on proper development curves because the roster was tooled up to go for it every season with stop gap venterens in the way and the picks and prospects dolled out to procure those vets sometimes also have an impact. Who knows if maybe Jurco really developed if he was given ice time and not asked to fill a checking roll because the top 6 had clear and Abby. I am not saying he would have for sure but the cost of choosing to go for it over development is that we will never know. You can't have it both ways, you can't keep going for it and filling up the roster with stop gaps and still build a new core. I mean you can but you have to hit a $%^*@ home run, and I mean out of the park in the draft, totally school someone in a trade, and things like signing a Vesna winning goalie from Europe off the waver wire. Holland never traded, and he lost out on notable available UFA.

So players like Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Larkin, Hronek, Cholowski, Svechnikov were players all acquired in seasons where the team was geared up to "go for it" but didn't toss away the draft capital that they owned. I don't want to call you a liar, but the fact of the matter is the Wings were able to get players into the organization who look like the start of a new core despite still filling out the roster with stop gap veterans and making playoff pushes.

You are right, we don't know what happens with players like Jurco who didn't get their chance over veterans, but in the same breath, players like Larkin and Athanasiou and Mantha have come along and forced the issue. Their play put Holland in a position where he no longer needed to chase stop gaps; Jurco never forced the issue. His development stagnated on its own, and the aftermath was him phasing out.

 

[Retire91]

So players like Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Larkin, Hronek, Cholowski, Svechnikov were players all acquired in seasons where the team was geared up to "go for it" but didn't toss away the draft capital that they owned. I don't want to call you a liar, but the fact of the matter is the Wings were able to get players into the organization who look like the start of a new core despite still filling out the roster with stop gap veterans and making playoff pushes.

You are right, we don't know what happens with players like Jurco who didn't get their chance over veterans, but in the same breath, players like Larkin and Athanasiou and Mantha have come along and forced the issue. Their play put Holland in a position where he no longer needed to chase stop gaps; Jurco never forced the issue. His development stagnated on its own, and the aftermath was him phasing out.

I don't want to sound like I am not giving credit here, that is not what I mean. Holland and his scouting group deserve credit for collecting those players. However aside from Mantha and Larkin which were both first round picks. The other players on there could be found and compared to most any other organization around the NHL. So you have two first round picks developing about 10 - 15 slots above where they were picked. I mean that is awesome but its also not amazing. I think people need to take the homer glasses off on some players. You need 'elite' players to win a cup and players with the best chance to be elite in the NHL are usually gone by 5th over all. The best players we have showing elite potential in that list are Larkin and Mantha, but when you compare those players to other league leaders are they Daytsuk, Zetterberg elite?

That's the problem, at a certain point you knew Daytsuk and Zetterberg were going to be the undisputed top talent in a new core. If this rebuild is in its 6th year as some are saying I would argue this team still does not have its clear number 1 and number 2 elite player. As good as Larkin and Mantha are the likelyhood of bringing in even better talent with a top 5 pick is pretty high. That is not a knock on them or holland that is just being pragmatic

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm pretty sure if we had that roster, you'd sit here writing up some other alternate-reality roster and say you'd prefer that. Because that roster would still suck, badly.

I agree. That roster is not a good one. There is the same amount of good NHL talent on that roster as there is on the current roster. I think it might be something like we should have kept around Zach Gallant or Dylan Sadowy or whoever.

That's debateable.

But right now for our team, I'd prefer this over what we've got.

Athanasiou Larkin Mantha
Bertuzzi Jarnkrok Jurco
Jurco Sheahan Pulkkinen
Helm Glendening Abdelkader

Dekeyser-Green
XO-Hronek
Cholowski-Marchenko

Mrazek/Whoever

The first line would still be BLM. They'd still be good.
AA would still be on the roster, he's good.
But Jarnkrok is a 4th line C and you have him up at 2C. Jurco washed out and is only in the NHL because Holland saw something he liked that he could try to recapture for a pittance. Jurco is also apparently being double shifted on this roster.
Sheahan was given a boatload of chances here. He wasn't any good. He's also still only hanging on in the NHL in Edmonton with Holland. He was okay in Pittsburgh where they had some good talent he could play with.
Pulkkinen is completely washed out and was worthless as an NHLer after he had that hot couple of weeks before everyone realized to pressure him so he couldn't get his slow shot off.

XO was too slow. He's a bad, at best, bottom pairing guy with Montreal. Marchenko, is Marchenko still even playing? No, Marchenko is out of hockey. When you really look at it... there are about five players on this roster that you "prefer" who are AHL players, full stop. There are a further 4 that are either bottom pairing or 4th line Cs/wings at best.

I mean, I guess you can have the opinion that you'd rather the team ice a far inferior roster. It's silly and counterproductive to trying to build a contender to willfully build an abysmally ****ty team, but you do you, I guess. By your own admission, you'd have to pay a premium to get anyone to sign here to improve it, so any of the cap "savings" you get from icing this roster with literally no upside would amount to nothing, because you'd then be signing a Tyler Myers type for 6-7M when you want to start considering trying to build.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The big difference between Boston and Detroit is Boston has drafted well while our NA scouting and drafting has been flat out awful for nearly 20 years. Look where Boston is finding most of their core talent:

McEvoy: 14th overall
Carlo: 37th overall
Pasternak: 25th overall
Marchand: 71st overall
Krejci: 63rd overall
Bergeron: 45th overall

They hit with draft picks in the middle of the first round through the third round. Pasternak and Krejci weren't in NA when drafted but they were picked in early rounds where we typically only draft out of NA while giving Hakkan picks outside of the first two rounds. Our drafting and development on defense in particular has been gawd awful.

 

[MBH]

I'm pretty sure if we had that roster, you'd sit here writing up some other alternate-reality roster and say you'd prefer that. Because that roster would still suck, badly.

I guess I don't honestly care about the kinds of assumptions you make about what I might think.

 

[MBH]

The big difference between Boston and Detroit is Boston has drafted well while our NA scouting and drafting has been flat out awful for nearly 20 years. Look where Boston is finding most of their core talent:

McEvoy: 14th overall
Carlo: 37th overall
Pasternak: 25th overall
Marchand: 71st overall
Krejci: 63rd overall
Bergeron: 45th overall

They hit with draft picks in the middle of the first round through the third round. Pasternak and Krejci weren't in NA when drafted but they were picked in early rounds where we typically only draft out of NA while giving Hakkan picks outside of the first two rounds. Our drafting and development on defense in particular has been gawd awful.

Boston has taken incredible heat for the the year they skipped on Barzal with three straight picks. But they've done a good job staying near the top.
The test for them will be, can they replace Bergeron and Marchand when their time comes.

 

[odin1981]

So players like Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Larkin, Hronek, Cholowski, Svechnikov were players all acquired in seasons where the team was geared up to "go for it" but didn't toss away the draft capital that they owned. I don't want to call you a liar, but the fact of the matter is the Wings were able to get players into the organization who look like the start of a new core despite still filling out the roster with stop gap veterans and making playoff pushes.

You are right, we don't know what happens with players like Jurco who didn't get their chance over veterans, but in the same breath, players like Larkin and Athanasiou and Mantha have come along and forced the issue. Their play put Holland in a position where he no longer needed to chase stop gaps; Jurco never forced the issue. His development stagnated on its own, and the aftermath was him phasing out.

Jurco's back injuries did him in for his time here. He is a guy that you take a chance on however with a 900k contract like kh did in edm as a reclamation project because if he is fully healed up he will be a big plus when you figure what he is signed for.