10 months later...who was to blame for the loss of last season?

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dpetri2000 said:
"Mandrake, (The Lock Out) is the greatest Communist plot ever concieved"
"lack of essence."

Are you saying Goodenough only drinks rain water or distilled water and pure grain alcohol?
 

Evilo

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Benchguy said:
I hope no one forgot the now famous comment made by Jose Theodore back in november 2004 :"If there is a salary cap in the NHL, I won't ever play there again!"
He actually didn't lie. He is not really "playing" in the salary cap NHL.
 

FlyerFan

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The lockout and cancelled season was simply a power play by the owners to wrest negotiating power away from the union. In other words, it was a form of negotiation by the owners.

It's as simple as that.
 

NYIsles1*

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The Nemesis said:
The owners are to blame because they spent the money that caused teams to put one foot into their financial graves. If they hadn't offered some of those ridiculous deals, none of this would've happened. Their shortsighted approach to outbidding the competition meant that they didn't know or didn't care that every dollar they through at an overpriced free agent was helping to bury other clubs and create the multi-tiered playing field that was killing the game

You kind of answer your own comments here, it's easy to say owners esculated salary but that was the cba and fans wanted the money spent and needed to so folks would pay for tickets. You cannot explain to your fan-base your playing for two-three years down the road waiting for a new salary structure.

This is where you got it completely right..

The players are to blame because they weren't willing to accept the fact that their gains from the last CBA were an abhorration, and that continued success for them under that system could only lead to the degredation of the league as a whole.

They were shortsighted because in their insistance that the old CBA's system was fine, they were ignoring the downswing of so many teams with money issues. It may not be their job to prop the owners up, but they should know that if the league isn't healthy enough to live, they won't have a place to work.

The negotiators are to blame because they decided it was better to play a game of chicken rather than actually negotiate. Both sides spent so much time dug into their positions that they couldn't see the solution that stared them in the face for practically the entire negotiation period. Their shortsighted approach to negotiating caused them to be concerned only with trying to stick it to the other side rather than working together.

I disagree with this in terms of the owners, they drew the line as to what had to happen for this business to continue to operate, the NHLPA wanted no part of any hard cap and never came close to what the owners had to have to make the business functional.

Let's also call a spade a spade, Goodenow had no problem trading jobs/teams to keep his open market, he wanted his labor victory and he wanted to win more than negotiate any deal and after 95 got too big of an ego. No doubt he would have forced replacements, dragged it into court and maybe forced another season cancelled before he compromised on a cap. He saw the real numbers and wanted no part of them and was not realistic in terms of what had to happen.
 
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BobbyClarkeFan16

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I think the only problem people should have with this system is that if you're an organization that has really built through the draft, you're going to get punished for it. You're going to end up losing great players because you won't have enough salary cap space to pay them. It means that some team that is always in the doldrums can come along and pluck your talent at no cost. That I'll always have a problem with. So, great drafting teams are going to have to be even greater at drafting and even more shrewd when it comes to the money aspect of it.

You know, the funny thing is that someone said that this system will now make financial troubled teams stable and viable. It's funny how the losing teams are still the same losing teams and it's funny that the franchises that continue to lose money are still losing money at the same rate. I'm sure next CBA negotiations, there will be a hard cap in place with no chance for it growing as revenues grow.
 

12# Peter Bondra

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Benchguy said:
I hope no one forgot the now famous comment made by Jose Theodore back in november 2004 :"If there is a salary cap in the NHL, I won't ever play there again!"

Anyone knows other GREAT comments like that
Wasnt that said by Esche or McCabe? I dont remember Jose saying that. :dunno:
 

SGY19

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BobbyClarkeFan16 said:
I think the only problem people should have with this system is that if you're an organization that has really built through the draft, you're going to get punished for it. You're going to end up losing great players because you won't have enough salary cap space to pay them. It means that some team that is always in the doldrums can come along and pluck your talent at no cost. That I'll always have a problem with. So, great drafting teams are going to have to be even greater at drafting and even more shrewd when it comes to the money aspect of it.

You know, the funny thing is that someone said that this system will now make financial troubled teams stable and viable. It's funny how the losing teams are still the same losing teams and it's funny that the franchises that continue to lose money are still losing money at the same rate. I'm sure next CBA negotiations, there will be a hard cap in place with no chance for it growing as revenues grow.


I really don't see what has been accomplished with this salary cap system. Teams are still losing money and there is even less parity in the league. The difference between the top and bottom teams is even bigger this year than the previous. In the 2003-2004 season the top team had 109 points and the bottom team had 56 points. This year the top team has 122 (after tonight's win) and the bottom team has 55 points. Detroit is still the same top team. Fan support is down also, at least with the Red Wings. The Red Wing home games are always half empty.
 

cecilnyr

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Jun 28, 2005
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Everyone is to blame...I do find it funny though how revenues are suddenly forecast to be above the previous total revenues. The owners just played the game better than the players did and got what they wanted.

But the players also got something self satisfying, they were right in saying the owners weren't declaring all the revenues and hid things ala Bill Wirtz and his suite sales under a different company which was owned by him anyway but did not count towards the NHL revenues... They got the owners to include revenues that they were not required to report under the old URO formula
 

GSC2k2*

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cecilnyr said:
Everyone is to blame...I do find it funny though how revenues are suddenly forecast to be above the previous total revenues. The owners just played the game better than the players did and got what they wanted.

But the players also got something self satisfying, they were right in saying the owners weren't declaring all the revenues and hid things ala Bill Wirtz and his suite sales under a different company which was owned by him anyway but did not count towards the NHL revenues... They got the owners to include revenues that they were not required to report under the old URO formula
There were no such findings as seat sales under different companies, etc. You have no basis foir making such charges.

According to the NHLPA, there was an amount added to revenue. What is far more likely is that, as opposed to "suite sales under a different company" and other matters which are simple ABC stuff to any accountant (and, I believe based on the old CBA engagement procedures set forth in the URO's were probably fully captured, since the URO's took affiliated entities into account), the extra revenue was more a negotiated agreemetn on certain allocations which are inherently subjective (i.e. the allocation of ad and suite money between tenants in multi-purpose stadia). There is no basis whatsoever for saying the NHLPA was "right".
 

GSC2k2*

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SGY19 said:
I really don't see what has been accomplished with this salary cap system. Teams are still losing money and there is even less parity in the league. The difference between the top and bottom teams is even bigger this year than the previous. In the 2003-2004 season the top team had 109 points and the bottom team had 56 points. This year the top team has 122 (after tonight's win) and the bottom team has 55 points. Detroit is still the same top team. Fan support is down also, at least with the Red Wings. The Red Wing home games are always half empty.

What a giant pantload that is.

As for which teams are actually losing money, I guess I must bow to your much superior knowledge, as you are clearly an accountant working on the files of NHL teams. :bow:

"Fan support is down". "Half empty". :dunno: I guess people can just make s*** up on the board and people can say "whatever". The Wings are selling 20 k seats a game.

Yep, the CBA must definitely be a failure since it did not flip the standings completely from the previous system IN ITS FIRST YEAR. :help:

Man, if you cannot see what has been accomplished, then you are either blind or you are Blamebettman posting under an assumed name.
 

oilers_guy_eddie

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SGY19 said:
I really don't see what has been accomplished with this salary cap system. Teams are still losing money and there is even less parity in the league. The difference between the top and bottom teams is even bigger this year than the previous. In the 2003-2004 season the top team had 109 points and the bottom team had 56 points. This year the top team has 122 (after tonight's win) and the bottom team has 55 points. Detroit is still the same top team.
Well, I guess a salary cap doesn't make dumb GMs any smarter. And this years results seem to show that smart GMs can put together elite teams without having a payroll $40 million higher than the opposition, too.

SGY19 said:
Fan support is down also, at least with the Red Wings. The Red Wing home games are always half empty.
Really? ESPN says that every Wings home game has attendance of 20,066:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/schedule?team=det

Is 20,066 a half-full building? Did they dramatically expand the Joe during the lockout? hmm
 

AdmiralPred

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oilers_guy_eddie said:
SGY19 said:
Fan support is down also, at least with the Red Wings. The Red Wing home games are always half empty.
Really? ESPN says that every Wings home game has attendance of 20,066:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/schedule?team=det

Is 20,066 a half-full building? Did they dramatically expand the Joe during the lockout? hmm

Ach, he is a half-empty guy. :sarcasm: The Wings should continue to have a strong team for a few more seasons. Out with the old and in with the youth, and great youth on top of that.
 

kdb209

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gscarpenter2002 said:
cecilnyr said:
Everyone is to blame...I do find it funny though how revenues are suddenly forecast to be above the previous total revenues. The owners just played the game better than the players did and got what they wanted.

But the players also got something self satisfying, they were right in saying the owners weren't declaring all the revenues and hid things ala Bill Wirtz and his suite sales under a different company which was owned by him anyway but did not count towards the NHL revenues... They got the owners to include revenues that they were not required to report under the old URO formula
There were no such findings as seat sales under different companies, etc. You have no basis foir making such charges.

According to the NHLPA, there was an amount added to revenue. What is far more likely is that, as opposed to "suite sales under a different company" and other matters which are simple ABC stuff to any accountant (and, I believe based on the old CBA engagement procedures set forth in the URO's were probably fully captured, since the URO's took affiliated entities into account), the extra revenue was more a negotiated agreemetn on certain allocations which are inherently subjective (i.e. the allocation of ad and suite money between tenants in multi-purpose stadia). There is no basis whatsoever for saying the NHLPA was "right".
The no-luxury-suite-revenue-at-the-United-Center claim was a lie propageted by the PA. It was explicitly repudiated by Lynn Turner (Levitt's chief accountant) in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. This claim came up many times duringthe lockout and was shot down many times.

From an old post of mine:

OK. I guess I will have to drag out that Lynn Turner quote again:
This zero dollars for luxury boxes at the United Center keeps coming up. It's pure BS. Lynn Turner (the head of Levitt's accounting team) has specifically repudiated that claim.
From the post-gazette:
Accused of failing to disclose luxury box revenues in former U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission chairman Arthur Levitt's report of NHL finances in February 2003, Wirtz was cleared of any wrongdoings by another member of the commission.

"Let me say without reservation that when the Levitt Report was done, it was ensured that all hockey-related luxury box revenues were included in the reported revenues," former commission chief accountant Lynn Turner wrote in an e-mail to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "Unfortunately, the players have refused to accept Mr. Levitt's written offer to sit down with them and take them through the numbers. This has led to such uninformed statements."

The accusation was made by Penguins defenseman Brooks Orpik, who told the newspaper Wirtz "declared no revenue from luxury boxes at the United Center in Chicago."

Oddly enough, this thread/post doesn't come up when using the HFBoards forum search, but Google finds it in the HFBoards archives.

It would be really useful if HFBoards search included its archives - which is where the bulk of the CBA/Lockout posts now reside.
 

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