GDT: 10/6/18 - 7:00PM EDT - Florida vs Tampa Bay

Master P

Registered User
Mar 31, 2016
19,515
26,012
Florida
The issue I have with splitting Kucherov and Stamkos is that...

Stamkos really isn't that good. I'm just going to put it out there, but I think if he was on a line with average talent (as opposed to Kucherov), he's put up like 55-65 points right now. He's good on the PP (although frustrating at times), but even strength he's just so mediocre.
I'm curious as to how much of that is due to him playing with Kucherov. I'd like to see them split up. Maybe Stamkos would feel more inclined to shoot rather than pass to Kuch. His shot is still deadly, he just never uses it.
 

DFC

Registered User
Sep 26, 2013
46,844
22,691
NB
The issue I have with splitting Kucherov and Stamkos is that...

Stamkos really isn't that good. I'm just going to put it out there, but I think if he was on a line with average talent (as opposed to Kucherov), he's put up like 55-65 points right now. He's good on the PP (although frustrating at times), but even strength he's just so mediocre.

Yeah, but Kucherov is very good, and having him constantly defer to Stamkos kind of gives us the worst of both worlds, I think. I think we could give Stamkos a lesser playmaker (Miller? Maybe Joseph?) and hope for the best.
 

CupsOverCash

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
16,353
7,092
I hope we try this.

Palat Point Kucherov
Miller Stamkos Joseph
Killorn Cirelli Gourde
Erne Paq Conacher
 

LightningStrikes

Champa Bay Lightning
Nov 24, 2009
26,063
9,772
You are the last person on this board that I would expect to post this
Well it’s just frustrating. We’ll be seeing the same sorry effort with the same sorry excuses after games that we’ve seen and read for way too long now. I was pretty critical during and after last season’s playoffs and was hoping both the team and Cooper have somehow learned something. Yet we see that very same team coast through their first regular season game like nothing has changed - on home ice to top it all off. It’s no surprise that it’s the new young players, Vasi and McD (who was meh when and after coming to TB) who were the only ones who had a good game. Meanwhile everybody else was showing no interest whatsoever. Sure they got two points after giving up 40+ SAG in a gimmick shootout. Awesome. I was expecting more. Still nobody’s taking responsibility and nobody is asking it. They have all the talent and that will (hopefully) be enough again to make it to the postseason. But where’s the heart? The effort? Seen Stamkos? Coop? Bleh.
 
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CupsOverCash

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
16,353
7,092
It just started guys. Stop overreacting. Give them a few games.

Generally I would agree. I think the worries are justified. This isnt year 1 of this team. Its been a long road now with the same guys and coaches and the same problem keeps happening. Coop needs to make changes or we will see more of the same.
 

TampaJay

Registered User
Jan 16, 2016
779
151
Well it’s just frustrating. We’ll be seeing the same sorry effort with the same sorry excuses after games that we’ve seen and read for way too long now. I was pretty critical during and after last season’s playoffs and was hoping both the team and Cooper have somehow learned something. Yet we see that very same team coast through their first regular season game like nothing has changed - on home ice to top it all off. It’s no surprise that it’s the new young players, Vasi and McD (who was meh when and after coming to TB) who were the only ones who had a good game. Meanwhile everybody else was showing no interest whatsoever. Sure they got two points after giving up 40+ SAG in a gimmick shootout. Awesome. I was expecting more. Still nobody’s taking responsibility and nobody is asking it. They have all the talent and that will (hopefully) be enough again to make it to the postseason. But where’s the heart? The effort? Seen Stamkos? Coop? Bleh.
The problem with Cooper is not his systems, or what he preaches, it’s that when the players don’t listen there is no accountability, at least for veterans, superstars, and favorites. The problem with a “player’s coach” is that they don’t have the gonads to healthy scratch aging vets (Girardi, Coburn, Callahan) when there are better younger, faster, players, or, the guts to hold the high paid stars accountable.

Stamkos and Kuch need to be split up and Stamkos needs to be moved to wing and told to be a sniper and not a playmaker. Cooper won’t because they would be mad at him. Stamkos’ passing would get a rookie sent to the AHL. I was watching TOR vs CHI and wondering who we would match up against Matthews and Tavares. It would have to be Point and Cirelli because Stamkos can’t hang defensively with either of them. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but Cooper hasn’t tried Stamkos on the wing since the new contract, I wonder if it was a point of negotiation. Cooper should send Stamkos out against Matthews (or Barkov, or any 1c) every shift until he agrees to move to wing. Of course, we’d lose games just to prove a point. Torts wasn’t trying to be MSL’s buddy, he was his boss.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
28,958
17,899
The problem with Cooper is not his systems, or what he preaches, it’s that when the players don’t listen there is no accountability, at least for veterans, superstars, and favorites. The problem with a “player’s coach” is that they don’t have the gonads to healthy scratch aging vets (Girardi, Coburn, Callahan) when there are better younger, faster, players, or, the guts to hold the high paid stars accountable.

Stamkos and Kuch need to be split up and Stamkos needs to be moved to wing and told to be a sniper and not a playmaker. Cooper won’t because they would be mad at him. Stamkos’ passing would get a rookie sent to the AHL. I was watching TOR vs CHI and wondering who we would match up against Matthews and Tavares. It would have to be Point and Cirelli because Stamkos can’t hang defensively with either of them. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but Cooper hasn’t tried Stamkos on the wing since the new contract, I wonder if it was a point of negotiation. Cooper should send Stamkos out against Matthews (or Barkov, or any 1c) every shift until he agrees to move to wing. Of course, we’d lose games just to prove a point. Torts wasn’t trying to be MSL’s buddy, he was his boss.

To add to that, MSL was a very responsible player under Torts. He floated a lot once he got that "untouchable vet" status under Cooper, so did Stamkos.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
15,750
8,070
Tampa Bay
Same story as last year when we started 1-1, before the team went on to comfortably score more goals than any other team this decade.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,610
28,847
Same story with firing Cooper
I mean... yeah. He should be fired. Should have been fired last year. Should have been fired the year before. Year before that - eh, the roster actually overperformed a bit in the playoffs but considering our regular season I still would have been fine moving on from him.
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
Generally I would agree. I think the worries are justified. This isnt year 1 of this team. Its been a long road now with the same guys and coaches and the same problem keeps happening. Coop needs to make changes or we will see more of the same.
can we at least wait until like the 5th game to say stuff like this

and btw, we won stop complaining
 

Lightning1995

Registered User
May 16, 2016
3,970
1,540
Yeah, the concern level seems a bit high for one game. I suspect things will look sluggish the next few games until the Lightning are able to find their game while others will have the benefit of more games under their belt. Hopefully Vassy stays hot.
 

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
15,750
8,070
Tampa Bay
I mean... yeah. He should be fired. Should have been fired last year. Should have been fired the year before. Year before that - eh, the roster actually overperformed a bit in the playoffs but considering our regular season I still would have been fine moving on from him.

I have no delusions that Cooper is an elite coach, but fire him and hire whom? Unless I am convinced that the solution is an improvement to the problem, the idea serves as simply a sponge to soak our frustrations.
 

These Are The Days

Oh no! We suck again!!
May 17, 2014
34,124
19,688
Tampa Bay
Some of you guys need some Barry Melrose and OK Hockey back in your lives again.

This is what they do. They coast along the regular season and save it for the playoffs. We got hurt vs Chicago in a year none of us were expecting a title and yet it's used as ammo to fire the coach. The following year we were walking wounded against the Pens and by the following Christmas we made Tampacuse jokes again and still came within a point of the playoffs. Say we did make it. We weren't winning the Cup that year. But let's indict Coop anyway for us not getting to the dance eh?

Last year? Yeah I was pissed. That is the only time in his tenure I would say he dropped the ball and even then I dispute the quality of that team vs a trap. But please stop throwing the previous 3 years around as if we were entitled to a Cup we never expected to win and were going to pull it off with a walking wounded lineup the following 2 years by some random miracle with Pittsburgh standing in our way both times. So much time has passed that all we can do is get mad at a single game anymore.

For me this is my last hurrah with Cooper not because I think he has done a bad job. But because what defines a truly great coach is to win it all with a great team. You basically do as expected ala Arbor, Bowman, Q etc. In no way am I comparing. But I want to see him take the next step. Either he takes the next step or his next step need to be out the door


I won't hold anything before last year against him. But enough time has gone by to where I can conclude that he's had enough time regardless of the circumstances
 

CupsOverCash

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
16,353
7,092
Some of you guys need some Barry Melrose and OK Hockey back in your lives again.

This is what they do. They coast along the regular season and save it for the playoffs. We got hurt vs Chicago in a year none of us were expecting a title and yet it's used as ammo to fire the coach. The following year we were walking wounded against the Pens and by the following Christmas we made Tampacuse jokes again and still came within a point of the playoffs. Say we did make it. We weren't winning the Cup that year. But let's indict Coop anyway for us not getting to the dance eh?

Last year? Yeah I was pissed. That is the only time in his tenure I would say he dropped the ball and even then I dispute the quality of that team vs a trap. But please stop throwing the previous 3 years around as if we were entitled to a Cup we never expected to win and were going to pull it off with a walking wounded lineup the following 2 years by some random miracle with Pittsburgh standing in our way both times. So much time has passed that all we can do is get mad at a single game anymore.

For me this is my last hurrah with Cooper not because I think he has done a bad job. But because what defines a truly great coach is to win it all with a great team. You basically do as expected ala Arbor, Bowman, Q etc. In no way am I comparing. But I want to see him take the next step. Either he takes the next step or his next step need to be out the door


I won't hold anything before last year against him. But enough time has gone by to where I can conclude that he's had enough time regardless of the circumstances

I dont think hes done a bad job. Ill say that some of the criticism he gets is warranted. Ill also say that the success the team has had isnt all because of talent. Coaches deserve credit for the teams success too as well as players deserve criticism as well as the coach does. Besides last year, I didnt have our team going as far as we did those years. The 1 year he didnt surpass my expectations was the year we missed the playoffs. Last year I expected a big bounce back from missing the playoffs. Cup was on the radar for sure. Expect it? Not quite but I think this year I have those expectations. Team should be better this year than last years team. With some proper coaching and the guys play their hearts out we should be a favorite. Anything less than that I think deserves criticism all around. Probably Coop should be fired if that happens again. Not because hes a bad coach but because at some point you need a new voice. That could come early this year if we start too slow.
 

Alan Wake

It's not a loop, it's a spiral.
Dec 14, 2017
4,148
3,973
ONE game in 11 days.

This schedule is cancer. Meanwhile, all we're hearing about in the meantime is Matthews and Tavares. Bitch of course that's all you hear because they're the ones getting games.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
28,958
17,899
can we at least wait until like the 5th game to say stuff like this

and btw, we won stop complaining

Says the most reactionary person on this site.

"Should the Lightning trade Kucherov after his disappointing playoffs"

Yeah, that's what I thought.
 
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HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,452
3,681
My issue with Cooper is his player development. Not sure which player you can say is what they are because of Cooper. Let's start in net with Vasilevskey, kid was the 1st goalie picked his draft and a 1st rounder, who with his pedigree was expected to be this good. Bishop was a good goalie he just never was on a team that would give him the chance, I really don't credit Cooper with that it was more Yzerman realizing how bad we in that department and bringing in a guy who just needed a chance. So in net he hasn't done anything special.

On defense it's really bad too. Hedman was here and fairly established, maybe Cooper gets some credit for letting him play to his strenghts more. Sergachev was a high pick so expected to be good and we haven't even seen Cooper get the best out of him. Dotchin flashed for a second but is gone, Gudas the same and has been better away from here, Barberio he made an Eddie Shore winner in the A but did nothing with in the pros and is doing well somewhere else, Koekkoek hasn't developed and might not be around longer. We've had to make a few trades and FA signings because he couldn't develop anyone.

For forwards he finally has some success, success that imInot sure is all on him. Kucherov was considered a top 15 talent if he wasn't Russian, so maybe he gets half credit for that. Johnson was a WJC gold medal winner, Memorial Cup winner, big time scorer in the WHL, sure Cooper gave him a chance to succeed but Johnson even though undrafted was a big time player before Cooper, so half credit. Palat I'll give him credit for, even though those who watched the Q saw he was actually the better player between him and Coutorier their dratt year albeit he was older, Cooper did well with him in the A and made him a top 6 player. Killorn was pretty polished when he turned pro and he really hasn't improved from there, kinda the same player he has been from day 1, so no credit since he didn't make him any better. Gourde was developed prior to coming up last year, Cooper gave him more a chance than anything he didn't develop him to me. Point was a top talent but his size was the issue for his draft position, he stayed in junior developing, Cooper I guess you can say helped turn him into a top 6 center but he had a hell of a player to work with. He's also had guys like Connolly and Panik who were 1st and 2nd round talent do better away from him. Gallant turned Marchessault into a legit player while Cooper mismanaged him as a 3rd liner. He did turn Paquette into a good 4th liner so he's got that on his record. Just not impressed with his development as a whole which is a big issue.
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
Says the most reactionary person on this site.

"Should the Lightning trade Kucherov after his disappointing playoffs"

Yeah, that's what I thought.
There’s a difference between jokes and legitimate calls for firing the coach after 1 game which we won
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
28,958
17,899
There’s a difference between jokes and legitimate calls for firing the coach after 1 game which we won

Citing criticism =/= wanting him fired after 1 game.

Just like how a "joke" =/= an opinion you're so wrong about you need to backtrack all the time.
 

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