GDT: 10/18/2019 Game 8: Detroit Red Wings @ Edmonton Oilers (9pm EST)

MBH

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His career was riddled with injuries. We chose him over Hossa. We would never choose Mantha over prime Hossa....

Maybe.
If were up against the cap and could save a million.

Look, Frazen over Hossa... it was a bad decision at the time and history went out of its way to prove it.
But forget that.

You're comparing a 30-year old Franzen with Mantha, 25.

Mantha, through 225 games at the age of 25: 74-71-145. 3803 minutes.
Franzen, through 221 games at the age of 28: 49-35-84. 3348 minutes.

Now, Mantha has to take that next step - the way Franzen became a 30-goal man and beastmoded a couple playoff rounds.
But there are a lot of similarities.

As for Franzen being a Selke nominee. It was a function of his role early. He didn't receive any votes once he became a goal scorer - nor did he deserve them.
 
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SoupGuru

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I'm not sure I understand your point. You're saying Franzen earned Selke votes early in his career and that shouldn't matter. But his scoring early in his career should be compared even when you say his role was different?

You're comparing the offensive stat sheet of a grinder and defensively minded guy to a one-dimensional scorer playing on the first line with a ton of o-zone starts and PP time. That comparison isn't going to be useful other than to illustrate that even with that role, it's remarkable that Franzen found a way to be relevant on the stat sheet.
 

Hen Kolland

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I'm not sure I understand your point. You're saying Franzen earned Selke votes early in his career and that shouldn't matter. But his scoring early in his career should be compared even when you say his role was different?

You're comparing the offensive stat sheet of a grinder and defensively minded guy to a one-dimensional scorer playing on the first line with a ton of o-zone starts and PP time. That comparison isn't going to be useful other than to illustrate that even with that role, it's remarkable that Franzen found a way to be relevant on the stat sheet.

The Selke votes are like a fun fact, but really pretty worthless. Cool, he accumulated 24 votes over 3 years, and his best performance of 11 votes comes when the winner any given year was collecting almost 1000. 1% of the votes needed to win the trophy does not move the needle at all.

Pick whoever you want, I’ll take Mantha because physically he is the superior athlete from my eye test, with the same play style.
 

Nemesis Prime

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Yeah, I don't know anyone who'd seriously take Franzen over Mantha. Given the supporting casts each has played with, you're seeing one guy do just as well with a lot less. Both streaky as hell, though.
 

MBH

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Yeah, I don't know anyone who'd seriously take Franzen over Mantha. Given the supporting casts each has played with, you're seeing one guy do just as well with a lot less. Both streaky as hell, though.

I don't think the Franzen vs Mantha thing is something that easily goes one way or the other.
Right now, I'd give Franzen a slight edge, based on peak performance and playoff performance.
But Mantha has a better slapper. He's bigger. and he's still got room to grow.
 

lomekian

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You are insane. Franzen, any day of the week.
Franzen at his peak was better than what we've seen from Mantha (apart from Mantha's last few months). Franzen didn't reach the start of his peak until he was 28 and a half in those playoffs, and was on a much better team at the time. He had 5 and a bit great years. Mantha at 25 has been a much better offensive player than Franzen was until the 2008 playoffs when he was 28 1/2. We don't know how Mantha will pan out, but if his form since March can be maintained, he'll be much better than Franzen, even though Franzen didn't get enough credit much of the time.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Just to clarify, the post that started this whole debate said Mantha over prime Franzen, which makes the choice right now pretty clearly Franzen. But hopefully we haven't seen prime Mantha yet.

More to the topic, goal scorers are streaky. I'm fine with that. What's bad is when they disappear for multiple games in a row. I'll be happy if Mantha is a factor and getting scoring chances even if they're not going in.
 

Hen Kolland

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Why does anyone even care about Franzen over Mantha at any age? Franzen is done. He no longer plays hockey.

There is really no use in looking backward other than starting arguments.

WELL SOME PEOPLE JUST LIKE TO ARGUE, GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT?

It is a pointless conversation, but it stemmed from someone suggesting Mantha should never sign a contract for more than $6M, and that’s is what we like to call a terrible opinion.
 
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Steve Yzerlland

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WELL SOME PEOPLE JUST LIKE TO ARGUE, GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT?

It is a pointless conversation, but it stemmed from someone suggesting Mantha should never sign a contract for more than $6M, and that’s is what we like to call a terrible opinion.
We? Lol.
 

Hen Kolland

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Yes, most of us realize that the entire NHL unrestricted free agent market has a major influence over the contract value of players. Not your personal opinion on a player. If Mantha puts together a 30+ goal, 60 point season that he is absolutely capable of and trending towards, he will get more than $6 million easily because that’s what the market dictates. Look at Kyle Connor’s contract as evidence as to how players get paid in this era.
 

ricky0034

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Agreed.

Some felt 8 yrs for $7 million was a good idea :confused:

So far - nobody IMHO has shown that they're 'better', or worth more than Larkin.

the Larkin contract is all RFA other than 1 UFA year

a hypothetical 8 year Mantha deal only has 1 RFA year and then the other 7 are UFA,also Mantha is arbitration eligible this summer

their situations aren't even remotely comparable
 

FMichael

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the Larkin contract is all RFA other than 1 UFA year

a hypothetical 8 year Mantha deal only has 1 RFA year and then the other 7 are UFA,also Mantha is arbitration eligible this summer

their situations aren't even remotely comparable
I wasn't comparing their rfa vs ufa status - I was more or less comparing the fact that Larkin is still our best player on the team, and the idea of paying Mantha more $$$ than Larkin is not a good idea.

And yeah - depending on the remainder of the season - I can see Mantha, and probably AA go thru arbitration if they feel Yzerman's offer/s aren't fair...I can see lil'Bert being the only one who'll sign without any issue.
 

Bondurant

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Yeah, I don't know anyone who'd seriously take Franzen over Mantha. Given the supporting casts each has played with, you're seeing one guy do just as well with a lot less. Both streaky as hell, though.

Once Mantha loads up the rocket fuel and kicks down the cockpit door he will feel the power of the Wings fans flowing through his veins.
 
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Mlotek

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Mantha is a poor man's Franzen minus the concussions. Very streaky. He shouldn't get north of 6 per.
While I agree with you on principle, the reality is shooters get paid in the NHL.

Perfect comparable, IMO, is Evander Kane. Twice hit 30 goals in his career, never broke 60 points has a 7 year deal worth $7 million per.

If Mantha even hits 30, I could easily see an arbitrator giving him north of 6.
 

ricky0034

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I wasn't comparing their rfa vs ufa status - I was more or less comparing the fact that Larkin is still our best player on the team, and the idea of paying Mantha more $$$ than Larkin is not a good idea.

And yeah - depending on the remainder of the season - I can see Mantha, and probably AA go thru arbitration if they feel Yzerman's offer/s aren't fair...I can see lil'Bert being the only one who'll sign without any issue.

but if you just ignore context entirely saying "Larkin shouldn't make more than Mantha" is nothing more than a vague platitude at best

there's not a doubt in my mind that if Mantha has a good season he's gonna be making more than Larkin is next year,should Larkin make more than even a hypothetical 65-70 point Mantha in a vacuum? yeah I don't think most people would disagree with that but we don't live in a vacuum. if Larkin had signed his contract under the same circumstances that Mantha is gonna be signing his under he would be making 8.5m not 6.1
 

RedWingzz

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We should give Svech and Zadina a look and send down Hirose and Ehn.

Zadina has 1 point and is -5 in 5 games for GR. He absolutely does not deserve a call-up. If he can't produce in the AHL, he won't produce here, and there is no use playing him 8 minutes a night on a 4th line. He needs to stay in GR for the whole season and actually do something before getting recalled.
 

FMichael

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but if you just ignore context entirely saying "Larkin shouldn't make more than Mantha" is nothing more than a vague platitude at best

there's not a doubt in my mind that if Mantha has a good season he's gonna be making more than Larkin is next year,should Larkin make more than even a hypothetical 65-70 point Mantha in a vacuum? yeah I don't think most people would disagree with that but we don't live in a vacuum. if Larkin had signed his contract under the same circumstances that Mantha is gonna be signing his under he would be making 8.5m not 6.1
Unless Mantha has an impressive season, and he goes to arbitration - I don’t see Yzerman paying him more than $6 million per season.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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Yes, most of us realize that the entire NHL unrestricted free agent market has a major influence over the contract value of players. Not your personal opinion on a player. If Mantha puts together a 30+ goal, 60 point season that he is absolutely capable of and trending towards, he will get more than $6 million easily because that’s what the market dictates. Look at Kyle Connor’s contract as evidence as to how players get paid in this era.
Mantha is still a RFA
 

Steve Yzerlland

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Jul 18, 2018
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Agreed.

Some felt 8 yrs for $7 million was a good idea :confused:

So far - nobody IMHO has shown that they're 'better', or worth more than Larkin.
Not on this team for sure. AA is my favorite player and I think the second best on the team despite his slump and he isn't close to Larkin in terms of $ value
 

Ezekial

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Mantha is still a RFA
But if he gets a 5 year deal like Larkin it will buy more UFA years than Larkin's did making the AAV higher. Just because Larkin is our best player doesn't mean the contracts around him won't change. MacKinnon makes 6.3 million and Rantanen makes 9.25 million, is Rantanen 1.5x a better player than Mack?
 
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Hen Kolland

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Mantha is still a RFA

This negotiation, unless it’s for one year, will not be considered an RFA deal by Mantha and his team. You might not like it, but this is a contract that will eat most of, if not all of Mantha’s prime years if there is term on it, and he will aim to be paid as such.

It’s okay to dig your feet in and take the stance you have, but you have to anticipate that it’s going to cause more problems than it will solve. Drawing a hard line in the sand on how you want to do business financially with players will potentially burn bridges with drafted and developed players, and create a hurdle to being heard by the UFAs who would otherwise entertain offers from Detroit. Until we have a gold mine of can’t miss prospects who can just come up and replace players, we have to be willing to play the game of negotiating contracts.
 

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