GDT: 1/4/23 - 9:30PM EDT - Tampa Bay @ Minnesota
- Thread starter TheDaysOf 04
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LightningStrikes
Champa Bay Lightning
- Nov 24, 2009
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FinnLightning26
Death and no taxes
I think so. Offense hasn't been the problem so I don't know why Cooper just had to swap Cirelli and Paul.
Sky04
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2009
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Cause he's a meat and potatoes offensive guy, offense will come to him if he's playing his type of game, put him with guy like Stamkos and he just falters trying to make plays that aren't natural to him. Stamkos has been pretty damn quiet at ES since they swapped Paul/Cirelli.
Last year was Cirelli's best playoff, probably because he was tasked with defensive assignments. I think we will see him in that role again come playoff time. I know it throws out hierarchy of salaries out of whack, but Nick Paul seems to be a more effective 2C.
Thought I'd chime in....wasn't Cirelli just off 5 months recovering from shoulder surgery, you all knew he'd start fast and taper off, it's an adjustment being off 5 months, no training, not being aligned with your teammates. Cirelli was your 2C for 3 cup runs...and 2 stanley cups, this is proven, and i believe he played with Stamkos the entire 2020-2021 playoff run. Based on stats, Stamkos has 1 goal in 9 games, of only the last 3 he has played with Cirelli and has 1 of those goals, so the logic that his offense has dried up since he is with Cirelli is false. Having shoulder surgery affects your rhythm, your shot, it's an adjustment, I've seen it too many times over the years. Thought i saw some stats of how well team is doing upon Cirelli's return.
Cirelli's offense has always been a bit overrated. He was our 2C in the 2021 run (and probably the 2020 run) because we had the luxury of playing Yanni Gourde's line against the other team's best. Last year, as you probably remember, the Matthews line ate the Kucherov line alive... until we paired Cirelli with Point, matched them against Matthews, and then I'm pretty sure nobody on the Leafs' top line scored a point-per-game from then until the end of the series. And half of Toronto wanted Marner traded. Cirelli, not to mention Point, can do that to top guys. (See Barkov in the next round.)
In each of the last three years, Cooper has matched a defensive line against the other team's best. For two years it was Gourde, and last year it was Cirelli. I don't see us using Stamkos in that role, so I feel like we're gonna get away from Stamkos-Cirelli this year.
As for Cirelli's scoring, I don't think it's a coincidence that he puts up more points in the bottom-six. He is the epitome of a tweener center. I've always seen it like, we can either have an average 2C who's great defensively or we can have arguably the best 3C in the league. We have other options for 2C.
Thanks for the insight. Correct me if i'm wrong, i don;t think Tampa has ever had a problem finding goals, but the key to success for the Lightning the last 3 years was finding the players that will prevent goals. Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow types....in my opinion Cirelli is the most balanced of all those 4 players, able to drive offense and play solid defense...don't get me wrong, Cirelli is not a top offensive talent, but he will provide the offense in the most critical games, and play his best when it matters. He's on a team right now that will depend on him being defensively responsible, but I have seen his offensive game in junior, he led the OHL playoffs in scoring when he was traded to the Otters for the Memorial Cup run, probably choses to lie on the side of caution taking chances offensively. My team has always needed a player like Cirelli, we have the offense, we need the guys to prevent goals, we can all agree that defending a sure goal is just as good as scoring a goal.
Looking like another first round match up
Sky04
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2009
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Thanks for the insight. Correct me if i'm wrong, i don;t think Tampa has ever had a problem finding goals, but the key to success for the Lightning the last 3 years was finding the players that will prevent goals. Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow types....in my opinion Cirelli is the most balanced of all those 4 players, able to drive offense and play solid defense...don't get me wrong, Cirelli is not a top offensive talent, but he will provide the offense in the most critical games, and play his best when it matters. He's on a team right now that will depend on him being defensively responsible, but I have seen his offensive game in junior, he led the OHL playoffs in scoring when he was traded to the Otters for the Memorial Cup run, probably choses to lie on the side of caution taking chances offensively. My team has always needed a player like Cirelli, we have the offense, we need the guys to prevent goals, we can all agree that defending a sure goal is just as good as scoring a goal.
Looking like another first round match up
No... Tampa's biggest issue was always depth scoring/scoring drying up when it mattered most. Like DFC said, he can be an average 2C (below average offensively/above average defensively) or a really good 3C. If Cirelli is your 2C you're going to have troubles offensively, he's 79th in PPG among centers with 13+ games played, offense has increased significantly around the league where 50-55 point pace is among bottom tier 2C scoring while Cirelli averages lower than that.
Junior scoring doesn't mean anything, he has 34 points in 92 playoff games, his offense can't be relied on when it matters most, it's just a bonus.
Your team needs a player exactly like Cirelli, honestly, and even there, he's better on the 3rd line. He'd still get 18 minutes per night through tough defensive assignments and penalty killing. I sincerely mean it as no knock on him when I say everyone's better off when our bottom-six is built around him.Thanks for the insight. Correct me if i'm wrong, i don;t think Tampa has ever had a problem finding goals, but the key to success for the Lightning the last 3 years was finding the players that will prevent goals. Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow types....in my opinion Cirelli is the most balanced of all those 4 players, able to drive offense and play solid defense...don't get me wrong, Cirelli is not a top offensive talent, but he will provide the offense in the most critical games, and play his best when it matters. He's on a team right now that will depend on him being defensively responsible, but I have seen his offensive game in junior, he led the OHL playoffs in scoring when he was traded to the Otters for the Memorial Cup run, probably choses to lie on the side of caution taking chances offensively. My team has always needed a player like Cirelli, we have the offense, we need the guys to prevent goals, we can all agree that defending a sure goal is just as good as scoring a goal.
Looking like another first round match up
You're SORT OF wrong about the bolded part. And honestly I think this is a lesson the Leafs need to learn from teams like TB, who learned it from teams like CBJ and NYI. It's not that we find players who will prevent goals; it's that our star players do it just as good as our grinders. The least defensively responsible forward on our team is Kucherov, and he's about average defensively (he also seems to be the one guy with a full green light to make crazy plays that sometimes bite us, but usually work out). When you watch an average TB game in the playoffs, it looks a lot like a Barry Trotz or John Tortorella game, but with much, much more skilled players. Aside from Kucherov, we take pretty much 0 risk in the defensive zone, and will just let you skate circles around us... so long as you stay in places where you can't score. This leads to a lot of teams thinking they got unlucky to lose to us, because they had the puck the whole time. ...Okay, sure, but what most people don't realize is TB is trying to win every game 1-0. We do that by turning you into a perimeter team and letting you skate around in our zone. But eventually you're gonna make a mistake.
Side note: This style of play, IMO, was a double-edged sword last year when we weren't quite as talented as in the two years before. We took it to such and extreme that all the shot blocking and physicality beat us into the ground, and we were more/less zombies by the time the finals rolled around. Cirelli, for instance, was literally playing with both of his shoulders injured (thus the lay off).
Second, we actually do have a problem finding goals in the playoffs. We tend to use our depth to cancel out the other team and then rely a WHOLE lot on Kucherov and Point for scoring. Last year Kucherov and Stamkos (HM to Palat, who came up with some timely scoring.) But usually when we lose in the playoffs it's because we couldn't find offense when we needed it.
Ya let’s just consider the last 13 games after significant shoulder surgery being off for 5 months. His offense can’t be significant to anyones satisfaction without top PP time like all other 2c in the league, not a fair comparison, just my opinion. He’s been in that role for 3 cup runs and you’ve won 2 cups, not sure why anyone thinks he isn’t a 2c. He’s a clutch player always has been
Felonious Python
Minor League Degenerate
- Aug 20, 2004
- 30,744
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Yes we probably do,
ya we definitely need someone like him, he would most likely be a 18-20 mins a night player for us and we are playing a more complete game… not so much tonight though. I guess every team needs to find that balance of offense defence with some luck along the way, if you can’t find the extra offense, then playing solid defence could balance that. You guys losing Point last year really hurt, hard to overcome major injuries in playoffs.
I think it’s Tampa or Toronto out of the East this year. I really think if your Leafs get out of the first round a run will follow. I don’t buy Boston or Carolina, we will see.
Our last game against the Leafs was pretty scary honestly. Even the stars were playing a low risk game and waiting for mistakes. That's pretty much what we do when it matters.
I think each of the 4 teams you mentioned are all very competitive and well balanced, it's a coin flip, will depend on who is the healthiest or gets the lucky bounces. For leafs regular season is somewhat important, but playoff success is the priority for this group right now. Hard to see them go 4 rounds without having to have any historical success beyond 1 round, but you never know.
At our best, I believe we were the fastest team in the league, but balanced with grit and toughness (I hesitate to say size, since our best moments happened with medium sized guys on the ice). I think last year we leaned a little too hard toward grit and toughness, which made us over-dependent on the defensive structure. Got us all the way to the final, but we arrived a shell of ourselves.
We seem faster this year. Having a healthy Point helps a lot, and that will obviously help in the playoffs. Point plays such a hard-nosed game in the playoffs that it might be hard to keep him fully healthy throughout the playoffs (in 2021 he was well on his way to a Conn Smyth before playing through an injury for the last 6-8 games). Hagel without a broken foot and in a big role helps a lot too (with team speed).
It honestly feels like we got pretty lucky with Hagel, Paul, and Perbix all panning out. If we stay a little healthier in the playoffs (or, knock on wood, a lot healthier), we could be significantly better than last year's playoffs.
