“There wasn’t much but I wanted a penalty against Nashville” UPD Tim Peel early retirement PART 2

Doc McKenna

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I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."


I'm going to be conservative and say 80% of this board has never officiated even one game in any sport, at any level. Everyone should have to referee about 40 or so games, from about 10-12 level up, and then come back and talk about how easy officiating is. I'll wager that at least 95% of them will say "I'll never officiate anything ever again."
Or make up an excuse as to why reffing can be factually checked to see how kuch game management happens.

Everyone on this forum knows; your team has had 4 poweplays through 2 periods, and the other team had none, there is going to be a terrible evenup call coming. Even if there is an easy blatent slash, trip, crosscheck that didnt happen to your team in the first.

Ot everones favourite, how is that not a penalty in the third but it was in the first.
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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You see its unfair that Johnny is so small its his momentum that made him fall so violently towards the boards. If he was bigger he could brace himself better and the hit would not look as bad.
So hits from behind into the boards are cool? Cool. HoCKEy!1!

Should players just let Johnny be in the corners. You see, every touch that comes towards him will make him fall. That would mean that he could do whatever he wanted to, because no one could touch him.
 

Number8

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Cannot imagine for a moment why any of us should be concerned about game management as part of refereeing. I mean other than us fans, who cares about games, spreads, and things like that?

And no, I’m not suggesting I know games are fixed. Nothing of the sort. What I am suggesting very very strongly is that the optics are truly putrid. Embarrassingly so.
 

TruePowerSlave

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I bet a lot of posters here and fans in general couldn't handle games being called right. They would adjust eventually but we would see a million threads of salty tears.

Usually when a team gets a few more penalties than the other you see a bunch of fans immediately blame the loss on the refs. Now imagine the response when the other teams is on the PP constantly and the other gets nothing. Also imagine that happening in game 7.
 

ChuckLefley

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I bet a lot of posters here and fans in general couldn't handle games being called right. They would adjust eventually but we would see a million threads of salty tears.

Usually when a team gets a few more penalties than the other you see a bunch of fans immediately blame the loss on the refs. Now imagine the response when the other teams is on the PP constantly and the other gets nothing. Also imagine that happening in game 7.
When you get a partial clip, with no context like this, people freak out and immediately go to the worst case scenario. The board is now filled with threads that are essentially about the NHL fixing games (if that is really happening how come we haven’t had Toronto in the Finals). People are claiming every rule is 100% black and white and thus must be called as such. Of course those people don’t remember coming back from the missed season, when this place (and every other hockey board) was filled with threads about how the refs were killing the sport by calling every possible infraction.
 
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Ted Hoffman

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Or make up an excuse as to why reffing can be factually checked to see how kuch game management happens.

Everyone on this forum knows; your team has had 4 poweplays through 2 periods, and the other team had none, there is going to be a terrible evenup call coming. Even if there is an easy blatent slash, trip, crosscheck that didnt happen to your team in the first.

Ot everones favourite, how is that not a penalty in the third but it was in the first.
The comment wasn't raised at whether game management happens. It does, I've said it, it's kind of obvious that it does. The comment was raised at the notion of the league dictating game management to the officials and the notion that some people thing officiating is so, so easy, even a caveman's caveman could do it. I'm a longtime critic of how officiating is done, and that the things you point out occur. I also have 20+ years experience officiating baseball, basketball and hockey, so I've got personal experience of what it's like to call games, how you have to communicate with the other official, being in proper position, etc. to draw from, which is why I'll ask things like "how can 2 officials who supposedly are in proper position both be looking at 2 guys 9 feet in front of one of them and one of them isn't looking off the puck at what's going on elsewhere." It's why I'll ask why an official 120 feet away looking through a few players will call a penalty on a play where the other official with a good look at it from 15 feet away decides not to call something. Someone there is not doing their job right.
 

Martin Skoula

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Oct 18, 2017
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I bet a lot of posters here and fans in general couldn't handle games being called right. They would adjust eventually but we would see a million threads of salty tears.

Usually when a team gets a few more penalties than the other you see a bunch of fans immediately blame the loss on the refs. Now imagine the response when the other teams is on the PP constantly and the other gets nothing. Also imagine that happening in game 7.

Your team should probably take less penalties in that scenario.

I don't see how that's worse than one team being allowed to get away with murder if they play against a team that doesn't draw or take many penalties in a game 7. Likewise I don't see how that's worse than your team getting called for phantom penalties just because the refs need to even up the numbers against a team that actually deserved to be down 7-0 in penalties.
 

Number8

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When you get a partial clip, with no context like this, people freak out and immediately go to the worst case scenario. The board is now filled with threads that are essentially about the NHL fixing games (if that is really happening how come we haven’t had Toronto in the Finals). People are claiming every rule is 100% black and white and thus must be called as such. Of course those people don’t remember coming back from the missed season, when this place (and every other hockey board) was filled with threads about how the refs were killing the sport by calling every possible infraction.
For me the issue is not the perception that the NHL is somehow “fixing” games so that Team A does better than Team B. I don’t for a second believe that to be true. After all Bettman reports to the owners.

Rather the problem is the NHL establishing high profile partnerships with several high profile gambling outfits. I thought that was foolish to begin with. Lots of money, yes. But foolish.

When you let the fox into the henhouse like that you have to live with the perceptions that go along with it. The optics of “game management “ when Bally’s is at the table are terrible.

NHL fixing games to benefit/detriment of owners who control the Commissioner? Defies common sense.

NHL managing games because the “book” is heavy? Yes, that makes sense. I don’t think it’s happening personally, but I could see the argument being made.

If I did huge legitimate business with Jeffrey Epstein but had NOTHING to do with the underage girls, I’d have ditched him like a bad habit once he was indicted. Don’t care how much money was involved in my legitimate business dealings. Don’t trouble trouble.
 

Zippgunn

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May 15, 2011
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Just want to remind everyone that Burrows was crucified in the media a decade ago for calling out Auger, and publicly ridiculed by Ron MacLean for having the balls to stand up to this bullshit.

Burrows was the biggest BS artist in the league and MacLean simply provided lots of video evidence to back up his charge of AB being a terrible play actor.
 

Zippgunn

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I wish it was Sutherland, that dude despises the Canucks for some bizarre reason, especially in playoff games. When a fanbase starts to become too familiar with a ref’s name, you know he’s a problem.

The Canuck fanbase whines about any ref that works any of their games.
 

Nucker101

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Apr 2, 2013
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The Canuck fanbase whines about any ref that works any of their games.
Any decent sized fanbase does, Sutherland is just another level. Pretty sure the Canucks record back when they were an elite team with Sutherland officiating was way worse than their typical performance. That was an easy team to hate for any neutral party so I’m sure some refs had some bias against them, it’s just human nature.

If you truly believe all these refs are in robot mode during games than I don’t know what to say.
 

TheNumber4

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Nov 11, 2011
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I bet a lot of posters here and fans in general couldn't handle games being called right. They would adjust eventually but we would see a million threads of salty tears.

Usually when a team gets a few more penalties than the other you see a bunch of fans immediately blame the loss on the refs. Now imagine the response when the other teams is on the PP constantly and the other gets nothing. Also imagine that happening in game 7.

Players, Teams, and Fans will adjust to the new reality. Maybe for a short while there'll be a crazy amount of penalties, but then teams could you know actually have their coaching and gameplans work based on their efforts to clamp down on penalties. Players performance should determine the amount of penalties a game as, its as simple as that, NOT the thoughts and feelings of whatever randomly assigned Game Manager you get that night.
 

TheNumber4

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For me the issue is not the perception that the NHL is somehow “fixing” games so that Team A does better than Team B. I don’t for a second believe that to be true. After all Bettman reports to the owners.

Rather the problem is the NHL establishing high profile partnerships with several high profile gambling outfits. I thought that was foolish to begin with. Lots of money, yes. But foolish.

When you let the fox into the henhouse like that you have to live with the perceptions that go along with it. The optics of “game management “ when Bally’s is at the table are terrible.

NHL fixing games to benefit/detriment of owners who control the Commissioner? Defies common sense.

NHL managing games because the “book” is heavy? Yes, that makes sense. I don’t think it’s happening personally, but I could see the argument being made.

If I did huge legitimate business with Jeffrey Epstein but had NOTHING to do with the underage girls, I’d have ditched him like a bad habit once he was indicted. Don’t care how much money was involved in my legitimate business dealings. Don’t trouble trouble.

Your argument is based on the assumption that all teams/owners have the same amount of power. That is not how it works in the real world. You think Arizona has as much pull in this league as the number 1 revenue generating team in the league in the Leafs? There's no way.
 

PattyLafontaine

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Apr 5, 2006
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The comment wasn't raised at whether game management happens. It does, I've said it, it's kind of obvious that it does. The comment was raised at the notion of the league dictating game management to the officials and the notion that some people thing officiating is so, so easy, even a caveman's caveman could do it. I'm a longtime critic of how officiating is done, and that the things you point out occur. I also have 20+ years experience officiating baseball, basketball and hockey, so I've got personal experience of what it's like to call games, how you have to communicate with the other official, being in proper position, etc. to draw from, which is why I'll ask things like "how can 2 officials who supposedly are in proper position both be looking at 2 guys 9 feet in front of one of them and one of them isn't looking off the puck at what's going on elsewhere." It's why I'll ask why an official 120 feet away looking through a few players will call a penalty on a play where the other official with a good look at it from 15 feet away decides not to call something. Someone there is not doing their job right.


The problem here is people are conflating multiple issues. I’ve done plenty of officiating in multiple sports including soccer, baseball, freestyle wrestling, and Greco Roman wrestling.


The game flow is not what people are complaining about. The issue lies in creating a deliberate mandate to keep Power Plays even and to ensure parity.

Anyone arguing that this is not happening in the NHL doesn’t understand how big of an outlier exists in the statistical data that shows that what occurs in the NHL isn’t possible without manipulation.

Peel is being used as a shield to fend off the real issues with the NHL officiating, specifically the directives issued by the NHL itself, which is match fixing.

This does need to be investigated by an independent body. Unfortunately since Congress in the US caters to big business they won’t be interested.
 

Number8

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Your argument is based on the assumption that all teams/owners have the same amount of power. That is not how it works in the real world. You think Arizona has as much pull in this league as the number 1 revenue generating team in the league in the Leafs? There's no way.
Fair enough, I agree the power structure is not the same for all. However, if you think Arizona (who's franchise is worth $285 Million) wouldn't step up and cry foul either directly or via legal means if there was evidence of egregious cooking the books, you and I will agree to disagree.

We are not talking about the typical "Have's" and "Have Not's" power struggle.

In this case the "Have Not's" carry huge wealth and will not simply stand by and let someone diminish the value of that asset if they think the League is trying to cook the books. I would argue that that is a better example of how it works in the real world.
 

Svechhammer

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Cannot imagine for a moment why any of us should be concerned about game management as part of refereeing. I mean other than us fans, who cares about games, spreads, and things like that?

And no, I’m not suggesting I know games are fixed. Nothing of the sort. What I am suggesting very very strongly is that the optics are truly putrid. Embarrassingly so.
I mean hell, as of tomorrow Bally's is a regional broadcasting partner for a significant portion of the league. I can't imagine they enjoyed seeing this Tim Peel thing play out like it did, calling into question how 'straight up' the league actually allows the games to be played, right before their name got put on it.
 

Leonardo87

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Ducks would love to see some of this so called parity or game management as people put it. Over the last 10 years the Ducks have been a victim of biased reffing and uneven calls.

It’s not even close to how bad the Ducks have gotten the uneven calls over the past decade compared to other teams.
 

Number8

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I mean hell, as of tomorrow Bally's is a regional broadcasting partner for a significant portion of the league. I can't imagine they enjoyed seeing this Tim Peel thing play out like it did, calling into question how 'straight up' the league actually allows the games to be played, right before their name got put on it.
Exactly. League can't get out of their own way on this. Just "firing" Peel and then sticking head in the sand is a lousy way to deal with this.
 

bobc222

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Mar 10, 2017
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Bingo. There is simply no way to use the official rulebook to call penalties without resulting in an exodus to the penalty box. In any hockey league, let alone the NHL, where players have fine-tuned the art of minimizing, and drawing, calls to a fine art.

NHL refereeing is simply excellent. Despite missed calls both directions that get noticed.

So? Why ought we avoid that happening?

In the short term, even if we concede this to be true, there's a strong argument that the game would adapt (see Juniors, Europe etc).
 

DropTheGloves

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Sep 18, 2020
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Ducks would love to see some of this so called parity or game management as people put it. Over the last 10 years the Ducks have been a victim of biased reffing and uneven calls.

It’s not even close to how bad the Ducks have gotten the uneven calls over the past decade compared to other teams.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

...

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

Ted Hoffman

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The game flow is not what people are complaining about. The issue lies in creating a deliberate mandate to keep Power Plays even and to ensure parity.

Anyone arguing that this is not happening in the NHL doesn’t understand how big of an outlier exists in the statistical data that shows that what occurs in the NHL isn’t possible without manipulation.

Peel is being used as a shield to fend off the real issues with the NHL officiating, specifically the directives issued by the NHL itself, which is match fixing.

This does need to be investigated by an independent body. Unfortunately since Congress in the US caters to big business they won’t be interested.
1. The absolute last thing I want is Congress investigating this. We'll have 10 hours of hearings, 5 hours of performative outrage over things that aren't hockey, 4.5 hours of story-telling about someone's grandkid playing hockey or going to a hockey game or questions having nothing to do with the topic at hand ["So, Commissioner Bettman ... why is the price of hot dogs at the game so high? I can buy a package of hot dogs and buns at the store for so much cheaper, what are you doing about this high cost inflicted on consumers?" "Commissioner Bettman, what are your thoughts on student loan forgiveness and how would that help the sport of hockey and fix the problems we're talking about today?"] ] if it's even related to hockey at all ["Commissioner Bettman, does this dress make me look stupid?" "Commissioner Bettman, I know you oversee a sport that deals with billions of dollars so you know a lot about money. I was recently approached by someone about a 'reverse mortgage' - can you explain that to me?"]

2. I'll ask you the same question no one else seems to be able to answer: where is the evidence of these directives on officiating being issued by the NHL? It keeps getting lobbed out as fact, and I keep asking for any kind of proof and everyone goes silent about it.

3. You should probably understand what match fixing is in a legal context before you attempt to allege it - and then if you're going to allege it, provide ... what's the word? Proof.

4. You should also probably understand what "an outlier ... in the statistical data" really means before alleging it. Also, proof that it really is an anomaly instead of claiming it is. [Hint: research what a Poisson process is, understand how it's impacted by a Bernoulli process, then get back to us.]
 
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Leonardo87

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penalties.png
 

Ted Hoffman

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So? Why ought we avoid that happening?

In the short term, even if we concede this to be true, there's a strong argument that the game would adapt (see Juniors, Europe etc).
Let me give an example.

In basketball, hand-checking is supposed to be a foul. If you're defending the ball carrier and you're hand-checking them, it should be a foul because you're trying to impede their progress and it should be a foul. If you're off the play and your hand is on another player and they're standing there, you're technically hand-checking them but it shouldn't be a foul because you're not impacting the play. If your hand-check keeps them from getting to a position to receive a pass, then it's a foul and should be called. Do call the hand-check that's to a guy's face, though - that's beyond what is acceptable.

Call the things that impact the play or are very likely to impact a future play. Call the otherwise major, clearly over-the-line stuff that shouldn't happen everywhere. Don't call Every. Little. Thing. That happens.
 
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