Sportsnet: “All bets are off” in regards to Babcock

[Faltorvo]

I believe this to be correct. reading between the lines, dubas wanted to hire a coach on the same philosophical page as he, but was red-lighted by shanahan.

if this is true, then this disconnect makes a joke and a laughing stock.

what is this philosophy and how is babcock holding it back?

 

[Faltorvo]

Could be, but the reason you make the coaching change first is so that you can see if anything changes before you make a stupid mistake with your roster.

If you change the coach and things don't turn around and spiral out of control, then you definitely can consider some big shake ups to the top guys on the roster.

If you trade a guy like Nylander or Marner now and they tear it up for their new teams while we're left with scraps then we'll be kicking ourselves for years.

This roster on paper is much better than last years and we changed out 11 guys. Let's start with the obvious change and if things get worse then players will need to be moved.

well that's the thing, this team is not better on paper then last season

 

[francis246]

If a new coach comes, and the team comes back to life, how many of you GM critics will walk this back?

I still won't walk it back because the team is still constructed poorly. Just because the team performs well doesn't mean the roster construction wasn't mishandled.

The cap situation is f***ed. That is 100% on Dubas. The Barrie trade has been brutal and poor asset management. Kadri is a legit 20-30 goal scorer on a great contract for 3 more years. He also plays physical, no matter how you shape it we gave away the best asset in the deal so it's a loss.

 

[sparxx87]

Dubas didn't put this team in cap hell. He got us somewhat out of it.

This was always going to be the toughest year because of the 3rd Marleau year and our big players coming up.

Dubas had no choice but to unload Marleau and Zaitsev to make it all work, and he was able to find at least temporary stopgaps for the top 4 D so that we could contend this year.

Marners contract was an overpayment, fine, but his camp also ****ed us over big time by threatening that we couldn't go into December like we did with Marner. This forced Dubas to get a contingency in Clarkson to call the bluff and then they signed a day before the season started. So now instead of potentially unloading the last year of Horton and actually being able to accrue cap space with all these injuries, we had to add Clarkson and now our cap space at the deadline is non-existent.

Going into next summer we have a lot of space opening up with only Dermott and Mikheyev as RFA's. We'll be able to go after that top RHD and then hopefully develop a goalie by the time Freddie is up.

This whole Dubas put us in cap hell is way overblown. It was always going to be this way and could have been much worse.

Hate it or love it, the Tavares signing a year prior to key RFA’s was what upset the balance. It’s cost them their depth, their leadership, and this year, possibly the playoffs.


Tavares’ contract will be an albatross in its final few years and I can almost predict what’ll happen with Matthews at that point.


Dubas is the worst hire in the history of the franchise. You’ll see.

 

[robertmac43]

This road trip could bring on more pain then we are ready for. I hope the Leafs put in a good effort or Babs will likely not be coming home to Toronto with them.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Hayes had a good point yesterday; if Babcock is fired the new coach will be expected to save the season. Do we have someone capable of that sort of pressure mid-way through the year?

 

[Judas Tavares]

Hayes had a good point yesterday; if Babcock is fired the new coach will be expected to save the season. Do we have someone capable of that sort of pressure mid-way through the year?

I've been hearing the "Babcock takes the heat and pressure for others a lot" argument a lot. That should not be the reason he is kept around. Once he is gone, if there is heat to be given and pressure to be taken, those responsible for it should take it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

i agree with you , i'm just saying Dubas and a segment of this board will use it as an excuse to try to buy him another year if things don't turn around with Keefe behind the bench

Got it ... yeah likely ... well when I watch Marlies home games I really don't see more than 1 or 2 stretches per game and only when there are no other options. The Marlies play a very simple breakout. D to winger on hash to centre breaking up middle and centre carries it out. It is the traditional breakout which has been going on since I was a kid. If the lock gets played then winger fires back to defender and centre curls around and you go up other side of ice.
With Leafs personnel it would be great if defender passed it to one winger on hash giving the defender 2 options and then winger plays give and go with our defender and centre stays back as safety if puck gets taken away. Then let Rielly and Barrie make their plays with open ice. When you got 2 race horses like Rielly and Barrie it makes sense to use them for their god given skills.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

See it did for him when he had Lidstrom and Kronwall etc...so in his mind it has to work now...he is SUCH a mule. If it worked before it will work again...just be patient...

It only worked because he had world class skill and it helps when Z picked up the net too. Show me another example in NHL history of the 2 defenders behind goal line model with centre completing the triangle breakout ever working with Babs stretch pass system. Bottom line it does not work. It will never work again. The CAP has made it impossible to do it. People may not have picked up on this over the years but Rielly and Barrie do not have A1 grade hands. They are both speedsters yes. But they are only OK with hands.

 

[glue]

Seems that people hear what they want to hear when he speaks. Lots of proof on this very page.

I do agree that people do hear what they want to hear sometimes, especially right now given the circumstances. That said, I would have to disagree with you here because in this case, even if some folks are overboard on their hatred towards him, if you have to pick between him being humble and accountable vs him being arrogant and often using the word ‘we’ vs ‘I’....its easy to see why majority would side with that. And of course, I can only base it on what we hear in Media, we don’t know what he says secretly, so I can’t sit there and try and give him the benefit of doubt that maybe he’s different with his players. Logic would dictate though that he’s likely the same.

 

[Darch]

I usually am against firing a coach to shake up a team. But it's obvious that in this league, systems prime over talent. Toronto has all the talent in the world, now they need a coach that can get them to buy into a system for today's game.

 

[ACC1224]

I do agree that people do hear what they want to hear sometimes, especially right now given the circumstances. That said, I would have to disagree with you here because in this case, even if some folks are overboard on their hatred towards him, if you have to pick between him being humble and accountable vs him being arrogant and often using the word ‘we’ vs ‘I’....its easy to see why majority would side with that. And of course, I can only base it on what we hear in Media, we don’t know what he says secretly, so I can’t sit there and try and give him the benefit of doubt that maybe he’s different with his players. Logic would dictate though that he’s likely the same.

Seems like when he says 'we' there are many that say 'it is all him', 'ego'.
When he says 'I' many say 'it's all about him', 'ego' .

Just something I noticed. I know there are some that hang on every tweet posted but it's easy to take things out of context when highlighting one sentence from an interview.

Doesn't matter, he'll be gone soon enough and we can go back to ripping the players.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Seems like when he says 'we' there are many that say 'it is all him', 'ego'.
When he says 'I' many say 'it's all about him', 'ego' .

Just something I noticed. I know there are some that hang on every tweet posted but it's easy to take things out of context when highlighting one sentence from an interview.

Doesn't matter, he'll be gone soon enough and we can go back to ripping the players.

They're not wrong. He has a massive ego, whatever pronoun he uses on any given occasion isn't going to change that.

 

[SprDaVE]

This article from Tulloch is so good and goes into great detail about the systematic issues the Leafs have creating offence. I've been saying for awhile that they are handicapping themselves greatly by not activating their defence nearly enough, especially in the offensive zone. There's been a lot less carrying the puck and activating 5 players on the ice but moreso the abundance of just breaking out, dump the puck in and send 3 forwards.


Another thing, it's starting to become really clear that Hasktol has been putting his fingerprints onto the Leafs D and it's a trend that is hard to deny. This isn't a good trend and makes me question that hire quite a bit.

Want to blame something for the Leafs struggles? Look no...

Given Hakstol’s consistent pattern of influencing point shots, it feels a bit naive to consider this trend a coincidence. I reached out to Charlie O’Connor, The Athletic’s Flyers beat writer, to ask him why Hakstol’s teams have always played like this. He floated out a few theories:

1. He isn’t super opposed to point shots and didn’t actively preach against it.
2. He’s absolutely a defensive-minded coach more so than an offensive one, and he likely felt that point shots were less likely to result in transition chances against.
3. The Radko Gudas Effect.
4. He thought the Flyers forward corps was best served trying to score lots of dirty goals.

Those first two theories sound the strongest to me, especially now that we’ve seen Gudas’ shot attempts from the blue line drop considerably this season under Todd Reirden in Washington. With respect to the fourth point, I can’t imagine anyone looking at Toronto’s roster and saying to themselves, “You know what we need more of? Low percentage shots from the blue line.”

 

[biotk]

This article from Tulloch is so good and goes into great detail about the systematic issues the Leafs have creating offence. I've been saying for awhile that they are handicapping themselves greatly by not activating their defence nearly enough, especially in the offensive zone. There's been a lot less carrying the puck and activating 5 players on the ice but moreso the abundance of just breaking out, dump the puck in and send 3 forwards.


Another thing, it's starting to become really clear that Hasktol has been putting his fingerprints onto the Leafs D and it's a trend that is hard to deny. This isn't a good trend and makes me question that hire quite a bit.

Want to blame something for the Leafs struggles? Look no...

Yes - I posted about this article in the Tyson Barrie thread around the same time. It makes it clear that what the Leafs need are D who play like Colorado's Tyson Barrie. If only they find someone along those lines.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Oh I know man. And I got a serious problem with it too.

If you're gonna hitch your wagon to Babcock, then you go down with him. Put up or shut up. And I just know Dubas is going to have some year-end speech ready that would make any crooked politician proud.

For sure he is going to say that missing the playoffs is just part of the process for a young team as well as they just need to mature a bit and look at themselves in the mirror..blah blah blah.

I really don't have a lot of faith that Duby will fire this fool unless he has to...by that I mean going 3/10 or something over the next month. He preaches Patience all the time and if you have time you use it. I understand not wanting to do something drastic at a drop of a hat...but this has been going on since January of last year.

Can anyone find out the difference in scoring between the playoffs and regular season? How much of a drop is it? can't be more than 1/2 goal a game...so why are we neutering our offense just for that little difference?

 

[egd27]

Hate it or love it, the Tavares signing a year prior to key RFA’s was what upset the balance. It’s cost them their depth, their leadership, and this year, possibly the playoffs.

Tavares’ contract will be an albatross in its final few years and I can almost predict what’ll happen with Matthews at that point.

Dubas is the worst hire in the history of the franchise. You’ll see.

I can't believe how this gets ignored. This is a textbook example of buying something you can't really afford, then having to scramble and sacrifice to pay for down the road.

The post you responded to was borderline delusional.

 

[stickty111]

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Honest question: Why do people think Dubas has the authority to fire Babcock?

Babcock was hired by Kyle's boss, probably makes 6x more annually, and has thrown Dubas under the bus in front of the media multiple times.

If Dubas had any authority over that decision, Babcock would have been termed right after the Bruins series.

And at the end of the day, the fact the GM has no control over who his coach is has led to the predicament the team is facing right now.

I think that Babcock keeps getting these get out of jail cards. By that I mean the following: Kadri losing his shit 2x in 2yrs. This year it's all the new players on the roster...also the injuries as well. When you don't have a 100% team that would want playing...he gets the benefit of the above issues when grading his performance. I bet Duby wanted to ax him after the Boston series but Shanny stepped in and said no because of the above excuses. Babs even makes up his own excuses...Muzzin isn't right handed..etc..

 

[beastintheeast]

Hey Gilmour did such a great job in Kingston he should be head coach

 

[Stamkos4life]

Seems like when he says 'we' there are many that say 'it is all him', 'ego'.
When he says 'I' many say 'it's all about him', 'ego' .

Just something I noticed. I know there are some that hang on every tweet posted but it's easy to take things out of context when highlighting one sentence from an interview.

Doesn't matter, he'll be gone soon enough and we can go back to ripping the players.

Good point.

No matter what babs says or does, he is wrong. At least according to most around here.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I could understand keeping Babcock around for a little longer if the team was playing well and getting poor luck, or if they were convinced Babcock hasn't been given enough time to implement his system for the team, but I think everyone knows those aren't the case. They're playing awful hockey and getting badly outplayed most nights, and it's exactly how Babcock wants them to play. It's been time to move on for a while, and they already failed to react in a timely fashion. Let's see if it costs them the season

 

[kevsh]

Cody Ceci spent 6 years playing the Sens system.
Barrie spent 6+ years playing the Avs system.
It's ridiculous to assume that after 20 or so games they'd be completely comfortable under a new system and a new defensive partner.

The problems are much deeper than those two, though, so don't flame me for making excuses, just pointing out that many people (I believe me included) suggested this summer the Leafs would likely struggle early on with all the turnover on the roster. They also started the season with a brutal schedule, plus not having Hyman/Dermott early on and losing Tavares and now Marner.

Yes, they are bad right now and haven't been great in 2019 overall, but if management can show some (more) patience and just focus on getting the players more acclimatized with one another, they absolutely can turn it around this season. What they don't need is a desperation move like trading Barrie or firing Babcock right now.

If we get into early/mid December and there aren't at least strongly encouraging signs, then by all means, even if by then the playoffs are a longshot. A very strong second half run will give the team and fans optimism that they can win with this core and this coach.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Could be, but the reason you make the coaching change first is so that you can see if anything changes before you make a stupid mistake with your roster.

If you change the coach and things don't turn around and spiral out of control, then you definitely can consider some big shake ups to the top guys on the roster.

If you trade a guy like Nylander or Marner now and they tear it up for their new teams while we're left with scraps then we'll be kicking ourselves for years.

This roster on paper is much better than last years and we changed out 11 guys. Let's start with the obvious change and if things get worse then players will need to be moved.

I liken it to an analogy about a problem with your foot. Do you amputate the whole foot (players) when you could get away with just the toes first (coaches)? Trading a star player would be too drastic unless you see them play under a new coaching system...give them a chance to show you that it was the players at fault and not the coach before doing something stupid.

 

[Erdinger]

Until the Babs speaking in the 3rd person about himself comment yesterday I had never really paid attention that he does that when he's uncomfortable with the line of questioning. After Game 7 last April when asked about why Marleau was sent out at the end of the game I remember him saying something like "We thought it would be good to have Pat out there at that time" . I recall thinking to myself that was a bit odd. Given the time constraints I doubt he was conferring with Smith or Hiller about who he was sending out there.