‘Game management’ at the root of NHL’s officiating issues

[DarenX]

That is what we have now, you say soft calls for one team are not called on the other, but you have no way of knowing that, you only know what you see whether in person, or on TV after 7 replays from various angles, slowed down.....

And I have yet to hear any coaches or players, saying officials are ruining the integrity of the game, past or current.

Not a single player or coach, as far as I know have said word for word refs are ruining the integrity of the game. What all of them are saying though, is they understand that every game has its own feel and based on that is what is called, refs have a hard job and they do prefer a fluid, 5vs5 game as much as possible. They are all also following up with they just want it to be consistent, whats called in the first should be called in the third, its the only thing that is frustrating to them as a player or a coach. Each game can be reffed differently, as long as it is consistent. That is what integrity is. If the playing field is equal during that one game, may the best team win.

To the point on our biased opinions, I will say this. I dont ever go back on replay to look and find non calls. I am referring to the infractions that are pretty obvious, weather soft or not directly effecting the play. They are the best at this job, although they are only human and mistakes do happen, I think you are giving them way more leash then required. They are NHL refs, they see 2 to 4 times as much as the rest of us. If I see 10 possible penalties, they see 20 or 40.

 

[golfortennis]

But they have asked multiple players and coaches... All the interviews I have seen they said they just want it to be consistent in the game. Like every interview I have seen.

Did you read my original post? I also dont want every thing to be called exactly by the book, I want a tough, fast, hard game. I want a consistent game though, if your gonna call soft calls in the first, call them in the third. If it goes into OT let both teams know prior, whistles will be less but dont over step. That to me is closer to equal that we have now. When I refer to consistency, that is what I am talking about... What frustrates me the most is soft calls for one team are not called for the other, weather its same period or end of game. That is what ruins the integrity of the game and that is what the coaches and players, current and past have been saying.

Going back to Mick Kern, he was saying careful what you wish for, and I can see that. I would say I agree with most of what you are saying, but I would add that the game needs to be called in such a way that skill gets rewarded, and trying to "get away with a ton because they can't call them all" is not. The DPE was the biggest result of what I am referring to. If you can't skate, you're going to be shown as a weakness. Anyone can hit a guy without the puck, it takes skill to actually separate a man from the puck when he still has it. That should be rewarded, the former should not. And you should not be allowed more leeway for it based on score, penalties, etc.

I would caution though, that things need to be called closer to the rule book than not. The refs were consistent in the DPE. Everything goes is consistent, but it's not right, and frankly it's not entertaining. It also negatively impacts those teams that actually play hockey rather than wrestling on skates. Just like a "consistent" strike zone in baseball that calls pitches 6 inches off the plate is no good, letting it all go is still bad.

 

[Pez68]

Those teams also probably draw a lot more anyway by virtue of having the puck a lot and attacking the net as opposed to playing on the perimeter.

I don't know. I know it's odd for a team considered "skilled" like Tampa looks like they may lead the league in minors taken this year, and were close to the top last year as well. Although I think a bit of our reputation is a holdover from a different time and we play a bit more in your face than a pure east-west game.

Anyone that has played Tampa knows why they are the most penalized team. They get away with just as many as they take, too. What's shocking is that ....teams that play them, somehow always take just as many. When you look at the egregiousness of the penalties, most of the time they aren't even close.

It actually benefits teams to play as chippy and as close to the line as possible. Because chances are, most of it isn't getting called anyways.

 

[Confused Turnip]

Anyone that has played Tampa knows why they are the most penalized team. They get away with just as many as they take, too. What's shocking is that ....teams that play them, somehow always take just as many. When you look at the egregiousness of the penalties, most of the time they aren't even close.

It actually benefits teams to play as chippy and as close to the line as possible. Because chances are, most of it isn't getting called anyways.

I mean, if the rule were officially "every time a minor penalty is committed by either team, both teams will go on a powerplay at a random point in the game", which is how it de facto works today, how would you go about coaching in that environment? One of the best tactics will always be obstruct 5v5 to the point of unplayability and drill special teams all day.

 

[Pez68]

I mean, if the rule were officially "every time a minor penalty is committed by either team, both teams will go on a powerplay at a random point in the game", which is how it de facto works today, how would you go about coaching in that environment? One of the best tactics will always be obstruct 5v5 to the point of unplayability and drill special teams all day.

If you're a more talented team, you do exactly what I said. Look at Detroit when they were at the top. There's not a team in the league that got away with more obstruction or interference than they did. Because refs, by trying to be "fair", are actually accomplishing exactly the opposite.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I mean, if the rule were officially "every time a minor penalty is committed by either team, both teams will go on a powerplay at a random point in the game", which is how it de facto works today, how would you go about coaching in that environment? One of the best tactics will always be obstruct 5v5 to the point of unplayability and drill special teams all day.

You've just described the Boston Bruins and Tampa Bay Lightning

 

[cbcwpg]

I mean, if the rule were officially "every time a minor penalty is committed by either team, both teams will go on a powerplay at a random point in the game", which is how it de facto works today, how would you go about coaching in that environment? One of the best tactics will always be obstruct 5v5 to the point of unplayability and drill special teams all day.

That's what I would do if I had a PP with the talent. If you had a PP running at better than 30%, you should play every game to have a 5 on 5 stalemate, and win it on the PP.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Montreal Typical, forgot about that. He was right to be pissed all the blown calls in that series went one way.

I'm assuming the guy who said he never heard of a coach or player criticizing a ref has also never heard of a man named Tortorella. Yeah players and coaches don't speak out often because when they do they end up getting fined by the league and losing their next several games to flagrantly biased punishment officiating, if anything the fact that they speak out at all in those circumstances is proof of how bad things are.

Interesting, I say I have yet to hear of any coach or official say officials are ruining the integrity of the game....and both of you come out with coaches being pissed and criticizing the referees... my next response is...I like lions, because that has as much to do with what you posted.......as what you posted in response to mine.

Coaches and players get pissed every game at the officials...hell you heard Laviolette bitch about not calling a penalty that he acknowledges the official didn't see......think about that one for a bit....

Neither clip has anything to do with the integrity of the game being harmed by officials....

 

[McShogun99]

Interesting, I say I have yet to hear of any coach or official say officials are ruining the integrity of the game....and both of you come out with coaches being pissed and criticizing the referees... my next response is...I like lions, because that has as much to do with what you posted.......as what you posted in response to mine.

Coaches and players get pissed every game at the officials...hell you heard Laviolette bitch about not calling a penalty that he acknowledges the official didn't see......think about that one for a bit....

Neither clip has anything to do with the integrity of the game being harmed by officials....

The players and coaches won’t say anything bad about the referees because they know that the referees will take it out on their team after that.

 

[Confused Turnip]

Interesting, I say I have yet to hear of any coach or official say officials are ruining the integrity of the game....and both of you come out with coaches being pissed and criticizing the referees... my next response is...I like lions, because that has as much to do with what you posted.......as what you posted in response to mine.

Coaches and players get pissed every game at the officials...hell you heard Laviolette bitch about not calling a penalty that he acknowledges the official didn't see......think about that one for a bit....

Neither clip has anything to do with the integrity of the game being harmed by officials....

Safe to summarize this post as "neeener neeeener wrong word used called it neener I win didn't say integrity neeeneer meant integrity and was talking about integrity didn't say integrity neener integrity neeener i winner neeneer"?

Earlier in this thread I replied to you and asked some honest polite questions, even mentioned that I appreciated your willingness to engage straight like you seemed to be at the time.

Now that you've totally ignored that post, skipped over all the important questions in it, and moved on to this kind of behaviour I take it back. My mistake.

 

[Lacaar]

I don't think the integrity of the game is at stake. Not in the terms of fair play in most cases.
The refs feel they need to manage the game because the NHL mandates it. The gm's don't want everything called, they want the refs to get a feel for the game and make calls based on that.
I actually feel they do a decent job considering.

But there's a price to pay for this And it's fan confusion and alienation.

We keep getting told we're not down there and seeing their angles or that we don't know how the game is feeling at ice level.
We aren't.. So when I see a penalty that's called or missed I can either be frustrated and mad because it looked like a weak call or a missed call.
Or apathetic and just shrug my shoulders and think it must be called or missed for some reason that I, as a lifelong hockey fan can't understand.

I can deal with missed calls or bad calls if I believe the ref actually missed them or miss called them. But I can't really believe that knowing they manage the games. I have to believe they decided to ignore it or as Tim Peel stated.. "wanted to give them a penalty"
Basically I as a fan don't know why a penalty was called or missed because I don't know if the Ref is managing the game or missed it.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The players and coaches won’t say anything bad about the referees because they know that the referees will take it out on their team after that.

Except, you clearly saw two examples of it......right?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Safe to summarize this post as "neeener neeeener wrong word used called it neener I win didn't say integrity neeeneer meant integrity and was talking about integrity didn't say integrity neener integrity neeener i winner neeneer"?

Earlier in this thread I replied to you and asked some honest polite questions, even mentioned that I appreciated your willingness to engage straight like you seemed to be at the time.

Now that you've totally ignored that post, skipped over all the important questions in it, and moved on to this kind of behaviour I take it back. My mistake.

That wasn't me.....but sure, let's engage, what are those questions again?

 

[Lacaar]

Another thing that frustrates me with officiating (that's actually getting better I think) , is this idea that once a penalty is called it's in stone and the Ref never makes a mistake.

Kerry Fraser was on tsn 1260 in Edmonton earlier this week telling a story about a make up call he made.

It was an overtime game and a player from Edmonton was chasing the opposing player behind the net. The opposing players skate clipped the net and he fell.. Oiler got a tripping call against him from the other Ref. Kerry knew it was the net that caused the trip.
So Kerry said he fortunately got to make a quick makeup call of the following faceoff as their was a bit of interference on it so he called the opposing player for it. Interference that would he never would have called in normal circumstances.

I understand his reasoning in that sense.

But I don't understand the reason for the original call going through. Why when a ref makes a call that's a mistake can't Kerry just have a discussion with the other Ref and say.. "Hey that player tripped over the net etc."
They discuss. Let the players/teams/fans know there was no penalty on the play. Then continue play 5 on 5. If you want us to know you're human and make mistakes.. admit to your mistakes.

This image that refs can't make a mistake is bs. If a ref blows a call.. the linesmen and other ref should be able to always... always... always be able to discuss and resolve.

I've seen this happen sometimes and I think it should happen more often. I feel it doesn't because they know the ref was trying to manage the game. What's the conversation like.. exactly what Tim Peel said likely.
"I know it was week, but I wanted to give x team a penalty"

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I don't think the integrity of the game is at stake. Not in the terms of fair play in most cases.
The refs feel they need to manage the game because the NHL mandates it. The gm's don't want everything called, they want the refs to get a feel for the game and make calls based on that.
I actually feel they do a decent job considering.

But there's a price to pay for this And it's fan confusion and alienation.

We keep getting told we're not down there and seeing their angles or that we don't know how the game is feeling at ice level.
We aren't.. So when I see a penalty that's called or missed I can either be frustrated and mad because it looked like a weak call or a missed call.
Or apathetic and just shrug my shoulders and think it must be called or missed for some reason that I, as a lifelong hockey fan can't understand.

I can deal with missed calls or bad calls if I believe the ref actually missed them or miss called them. But I can't really believe that knowing they manage the games. I have to believe they decided to ignore it or as Tim Peel stated.. "wanted to give them a penalty"
Basically I as a fan don't know why a penalty was called or missed because I don't know if the Ref is managing the game or missed it.

As a fan, does it matter WHY a penalty was called or not called? Be it game management, or he simply didn't see it, it's still a "missed call" right? And there's a plethora of reasons why it was not called, A. didn't see it, B. didn't affect the game, wasn't injury potentional, or wasn't Blatant. C. didnt come to the standard that was either already set, or talked about in the room prior....

 

[Lacaar]

As a fan, does it matter WHY a penalty was called or not called? Be it game management, or he simply didn't see it, it's still a "missed call" right? And there's a plethora of reasons why it was not called, A. didn't see it, B. didn't affect the game, wasn't injury potentional, or wasn't Blatant. C. didnt come to the standard that was either already set, or talked about in the room prior....

Like I said if you want fan apathy to be part of the game then that's ok. Heck that's what happens now and I still love the game. We've likely all come to accept it.
We don't like it.. but it's accepted.

I think what I'm trying to point out is that fans aren't engaged in that aspect of the game in a sense. We don't know what a penalty is in the NHL (if it's not a high stick or a puck shot over the boards.)
It's like I'm kind of only watching 80% of the game and I can't understand the other 20%?

My son asks me why wasn't that called. Usually I just say.. I dunno son.. the ref didn't feel like it or missed it. You just need to watch the game and if a penalty is called then just accept it's penalty time or what not.

NHL fans have grown to accept this. New fans get confused.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Vegas says no bueno.

No doubt they do!

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

As a fan, does it matter WHY a penalty was called or not called? Be it game management, or he simply didn't see it, it's still a "missed call" right? And there's a plethora of reasons why it was not called, A. didn't see it, B. didn't affect the game, wasn't injury potentional, or wasn't Blatant. C. didnt come to the standard that was either already set, or talked about in the room prior....

Not overly but when you see blatant injurious potential stuff let go (literally right in front of them) and chintzy stuff that actually doesn't even fall under their own rule book called, there's an issue.

 

[TKB]

This is the absolute definitive piece of information.
Compare home/away in any situation, and you find that the away team is more likely to go on the PK next.
Compare ahead/behind in score and you find the team that is ahead is more likely to go on the PK next.
Compare (more PK time already vs less PK time already) and you find that the calls make the penalties even out.

This is obviously BAD. It means the refs are adjusting their calls according to the game situation, and it is undeniable.

The problem with this is simple to state:
Hockey is a game in which the team with more energy does better. If you give the team which is losing an encouragement to their energy level, you manipulate the outcome.

How many times does a team which is goal behind early in the 3rd period score on the PP and go on to win the game? Worse, how many times does a PP goal when a team is down by 2 goals turn the momentum and lead to an OT game? Given that the penalty call which put them on the PP is suspect (according to the chart), that means that the refs "game management" manipulates the standings. This affects the financials of the teams in the league because making the playoffs or not can make a big difference in the bottom line at the end of the year.

This is obviously very bad.

It's hard to believe that some of the owners don't think about this.

You never answered the question. What should the number be? Can you think of any reason the home team in a tie game with penalties even is more likely to draw the next penalty?

I know I can. I can't tell you how much that should move the needle from 50/50, there is a definite edge.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

You never answered the question. What should the number be? Can you think of any reason the home team in a tie game with penalties even is more likely to draw the next penalty?

I know I can. I can't tell you how much that should move the needle from 50/50, there is a definite edge.

One would think that a more skilled team would draw more penalties than they get called for. You'd also imagine that a more skilled team is more likely to be winning. With such a set of assumptions one would think it'd be more likely that the team winning would be more likely to draw the next penalty than the team that is losing.

However, the data shows that losing the game makes it more likely you get a power play. That's backwards, and suggests the refs are either being told to keep games close, or are all inclined to do so of their own initiative.

And we're not just talking about single games, we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of games over a decade. There's enough of a sample size that trends emerge.

 

[TKB]

I appreciate how you're engaging here, so thanks for that. I'd love to hear your explanation for some of the score and penalty differential effects data. Stuff like teams with 2 fewer penalties against being twice as likely to take the next penalty is not a small effect, it's enormous.

Starting with the home team tie game penalties even - I don't know exactly what the number should be, but I would expect it to be less than 50% based on the home team last change advantage and the potential to create line mismatches.

For score differential, from what the math guys tell me, the losing team outshoots the leading team. In that scenario it is not unreasonable to expect the losing team to draw more penalties as they are pressing the action.

As for penalties taken, there are a couple of factors. First is another mismatch scenario. The first shift after a PP often sees a mismatch as the PK team sends out its top line against an ad-hoc or checking line.

Second is the reality of the gray area penalties. The black and white calls should be made regardless of who is taking the most penalties. The gray area calls are a different ball game. While nothing should be set in stone, if one team has had 2 or 3 gray area calls go in their direction a good referee should be aware of that and take that into consideration on the next gray area call/noncall. This does not mean the next gray area call is automatically going the other way and it does not mean the next black and white call will be ignored. The reality is that a lot of calls fall into the gray area and should be expected to be more balanced than black and white calls.

Again, I don't know what the numbers on this chart should be, is which is why I asked the question. But I am a bit surprised that the math guys don't seem to have taken any factors into consideration and are just assuming that the number should be 50/50 across the board.

 

[canuckster19]

Not a single player or coach, as far as I know have said word for word refs are ruining the integrity of the game. What all of them are saying though, is they understand that every game has its own feel and based on that is what is called, refs have a hard job and they do prefer a fluid, 5vs5 game as much as possible. They are all also following up with they just want it to be consistent, whats called in the first should be called in the third, its the only thing that is frustrating to them as a player or a coach. Each game can be reffed differently, as long as it is consistent. That is what integrity is. If the playing field is equal during that one game, may the best team win.

To the point on our biased opinions, I will say this. I dont ever go back on replay to look and find non calls. I am referring to the infractions that are pretty obvious, weather soft or not directly effecting the play. They are the best at this job, although they are only human and mistakes do happen, I think you are giving them way more leash then required. They are NHL refs, they see 2 to 4 times as much as the rest of us. If I see 10 possible penalties, they see 20 or 40.

That's shady too, how can players have any kind of consistency when the game is reffed differently game to game. The league can manipulate this as well by choosing refs who may call more or fewer penalties in a playoff series and could screw a team that might be better at special teams than their opponent or vice versa.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

If fans of the penalized team need to cry about something they can cry about their players. Thats how it should be and it’s based on the performance of the players. Not every single game fans of BOTH teams cry about unfair officiating.

I used to referee hockey for 10+ years and I always tried to keep things as accurate as possible. But I couldn't stomach the anger and hatred you receive from teams that without fail will claim you are trying to fix the game against them. I remember a game where the first 6 penalties went against team A and then team B took 3 straight, to which team B had an absolute meltdown. It takes a certain person not to take that personally. I would hope that somebody who has made it to the highest level is that kind of person. You almost just need to be a robot out there and tune out your human instincts, because human instincts will fight with you against calling penalties on a team thats down 6-0 and is already starting to goon it up.

There's also not as much black and white in calling a game. Every potential penalty falls into a spectrum. If its 100% a trip, its an easy call. I remember so many times where I would be debating on if something actually was bad enough to call and then it was too late, as if you put up your hand after a couple seconds it looks like you're being coerced into calling it. Reffing is far more dynamic of a job then most people realize, and this is true in all sports. Fans of sports across the world will claim that theirs is the worst called league out there.

I'm not defending game management. I think its widespread and its probably bad for the sport. But I see where it comes from. I probably partook in it too which is why I'm glad I hung up the whistle, outside of recreational mens league where I'm simply trying to get through a game without an injury to myself or any players.

I do think that game management is for the casual fans. Hardcore fans here don't want that crap. But if you've ever been to a game you'll immediately see how shockingly unknowledgeable people are about the rules. If their team has 10 penalties against them, they will be ticked off no matter what those penalties were and will be less likely to spend their dime on the NHL.

 

[BritainStix]

Anyone that doesn't believe the game is managed by the refs is so far removed from the game it's unreal.

No other sport of the planet is officiated like this. It's awful.

 

[stealth1]

From reading a lot of the responses on here many don't understand what game management is. Calling penalties depending on score and to make sure each team has the same amount is the type of game management that is going on. If you look at box scores of almost every game the power plays are almost even every game.

I know many here hated it but the season after the lockout was the best. While there was a lot of penalties called, the fast skilled players got to show of their skill nightly. Unfortunately the owners want parity so bad they try to artificially create it. Between keeping games close by the way they call them and the stupid point system.