Zubov vs. Hatcher

[ESH]

Only taking into account when they played together for the Stars, who was the better defenseman? They both played huge minutes for some great Stars teams over the years, though obviously used a bit differently. Zubov was the offensive catalyst from the backend, getting easier defensive matchups and being put into more offense-oriented situations. Hatcher was the big, strong shut-down defenseman who matched up against top lines. I don't think they actually played very much together. As I understand it the pairings were mostly Hatcher-Matvichuk and Sydor-Zubov. Were there any seasons they actually spent significant time together? I feel like Zubov will be the very popular choice to the original question, but their Norris/AS voting is quite similar. Hatcher was actually 3rd in Norris voting in 2002-2003, which was also one of Zubov's best years as a Star and he only finished 8th (though they were 4th and 5th in AS voting that year). Zubov was probably at his best in the 2005-2006 season, but Hatcher was onto different teams by then, so please don't take that season into consideration.

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[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Hatcher was a little better when they played together, but Zubov was much better outside those years.

Hatcher was the only stay at home defensmen other than Scott Stevens to finish high in awards voting during that era.

 

[ESH]

I think Hatcher was a little better when they played together, but Zubov was much better outside those years.

Hatcher was the only stay at home defensmen other than Scott Stevens to finish high in awards voting during that era.

The dead puck era was probably the perfect time for Hatcher to play, while I think the current NHL might just be the perfect time for Zubov. With game as fast as it's ever been and transitions becoming more and more important, Zubov would be every coach's dream making smooth passes from the backend.

 

[jetsfan91]

Zubov. It's really not that close.

 

[Hobnobs]

The dead puck era was probably the perfect time for Hatcher to play, while I think the current NHL might just be the perfect time for Zubov. With game as fast as it's ever been and transitions becoming more and more important, Zubov would be every coach's dream making smooth passes from the backend.

I was going to say that as well. Hatcher played under perfect circumstances for him and Zubov did not. Yet Zubov continued to steadily shined as Stars (and the leagues) premier all-around offensive defensemen.

However I dont think you can say "its not close". It is close for the same reasons I mentioned and for Stars only I say its wash. They were equally important for that club.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think Hatcher was a little better when they played together, but Zubov was much better outside those years.

Hatcher was the only stay at home defensmen other than Scott Stevens to finish high in awards voting during that era.

Does Chelios count? If so, Chelios too.

 

[Regal]

I'd say Zubov was a little better during this time despite it being the perfect time for Hatcher. I think Hatcher's reputation was arguably higher, but the value on size and physicality and the bias against less physical offensive players in terms of evaluating their defensive play was a big part of that. Zubov might not have been as good defensively, but he controlled the game more at even strength and was a great PP quarterback

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Does Chelios count? If so, Chelios too.

Yeah, I think Chelios would from his latter Chicago and early Detroit years.

Konstantinov would count as well. Finished 2nd and 4th in Norris voting his final two seasons despite not being a PP guy. He did play for an offensive, possession unit obviously though.

Hatcher and Stevens were probably in a different tier of stay at home though.

 

[MadLuke]

Was thinking about Chara, but he is a bit harder to pin point, he was playing in front of the net on the powerplay after all.

 

[Neutrinos]

I think Hatcher was a little better when they played together, but Zubov was much better outside those years.

Hatcher was the only stay at home defensmen other than Scott Stevens to finish high in awards voting during that era.

Konstantinov?

 

[Eisen]

It bugs me that a guy like Hatcher is on the same level as Zubov. Nothing against him personally, but he examplifies an unattractive style of hockey. Still, there is no denying he was very effective at that time.

 

[sr edler]

What kind of usage and ice time did Hatcher have in the 96 World Cup?

I see he got 3 goals and 5 points in 6 games which is good for a defense-first defenseman.

Then in 10 best-on-best Olympic games in 98 and 06 he had 0 points.

 

[tony d]

Went with Sergei Zubov.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if we are only talking the years they were teammates, so excluding zubov's big NYR year, his year on mario and jagr's PP, and his career '06 season, maybe one thing to take into consideration is how to quantify their respective contributions to their team.

and this is in no way scientific, but fwiw:

season | overall rank | GF rank | GA rank | PP rank | PK rank | goals behind #1 | goals against ahead of #1 or goals against behind #2
1997 | 2 | 7 | 3 | 18 | 14 | 33 | 16
1998 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 14 | 1
1999 | 1 | 8 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 32 | -7
2000 | 6* | 21 | 3 | 19 | 1 | 67 | 19
2001 | 5 | 10 | 2 | 6 | 4 | 54 | 3
2002 | 17 | 15 | 18 | 8 | 26 | 39 | 44
2003 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 24 | 3
2004 | 11 | 20 | 2 | 18 | 4 | 68 | 9

* tied for 5th, but lost tie-breaker

dallas was sometimes a good offensive team, but it was always a top three defensive team in the league (other than the disastrous '02 season). special teams paint a less stark picture.

yes yes, hitchcock, system, hall of fame goalie, and so on. but this information isn't meaningless either, is it?

 

[BenchBrawl]

If I'm starting a team, in an era of unknown style, I'd take my chances with Derian Hatcher ahead of Sergei Zubov.I like the unique combination of skills Hatcher brings (leadership, toughness, nastiness, fighting, size, elite defense, PK'ing).I think he's a very useful piece to start an eventual championship team with, but in fairness so is Sergei Zubov.

 

[Rebels57]

I was going to say that as well. Hatcher played under perfect circumstances for him and Zubov did not. Yet Zubov continued to steadily shined as Stars (and the leagues) premier all-around offensive defensemen.

However I dont think you can say "its not close". It is close for the same reasons I mentioned and for Stars only I say its wash. They were equally important for that club.

Hatcher managed to have 1 more excellent season in 07-08 for the Flyers team that went to the ECF, and there was some wide open hockey being played that season. It was the season that included the moment Hatcher knocked out Crosbys teeth and drug him down the ice with his stick. That basically lighted the match for the modern-day Flyers-Penguins rivalry.

 

[Hobnobs]

Hatcher managed to have 1 more excellent season in 07-08 for the Flyers team that went to the ECF, and there was some wide open hockey being played that season. It was the season that included the moment Hatcher knocked out Crosbys teeth and drug him down the ice with his stick. That basically lighted the match for the modern-day Flyers-Penguins rivalry.

Im not saying Hatcher was bad outside the DPE but comeon. DPE was the perfect era for any big bodied defensive defenseman.

 

[Rebels57]

Im not saying Hatcher was bad outside the DPE but comeon. DPE was the perfect era for any big bodied defensive defenseman.

Agreed. He was a behemoth.

 

[Hackett]

This is comparing apples to oranges. Kevin Hatcher had more in common with zubov than derian.

 

[Sentinel]

As a Wings fan, Hatcher scared me way more than Zubov. He knocked Roenick into the 21st century. In that era Hatcher dominated the play more than Zubov did. Zubov would do better in any other era.

 

[Up the Irons]

Zubov was better. the Zub is under-appreciated dman, and as an Oilers fan, i remember how often he'd kill us (tho, many Oilers fans, myself include, actually admire that great Dallas club)

He was probably between 4th and 6th best of his era, behind Lidstrom, Pronger, Neidermeyer. after that, you have guys like Chelios, Leetch, Stevens and Zubov.

 

[sr edler]

Sergei Zubov was a better hockey player than Derian Hatcher. Easily. Notice how Dallas became a top club when he arrived. Now that's definitely not all on Zubov, of course, but he was a silent beast.

That said, even though Zubov was better than Hatcher, Hatcher could have been more effective at a certain time, if that makes any sense. Not only Hatcher though, but his pairing.

People are forgetting Richard Matvichuk here. Him and Hatcher had a defensive terror pairing going on at the birth of the DPE. I remember they were matched up heavily against the Forsberg line in the playoffs, Dallas winning those series.

Now if Hatcher–Matvichuk were matched up against the Forsberg line that should mean Zubov and his guy were matched up against the Sakic brigade.

If the Subinator could play against Sakic whole playoff series without getting torched that should mean he wasn't trash. That or Sakic was trash.

 

[billybudd]

Zubov. It's really not that close.

Totally agree. Hatcher was good at clearing the net and in the corners, I guess, but a lot of that has to do with the referees letting more penalties go uncalled against him than against any player I've ever seen, before or since. Zubov was just good at his position, full stop. Real good.

Hatcher managed to have 1 more excellent season in 07-08 for the Flyers team that went to the ECF, and there was some wide open hockey being played that season. It was the season that included the moment Hatcher knocked out Crosbys teeth and drug him down the ice with his stick. That basically lighted the match for the modern-day Flyers-Penguins rivalry.

That was 05-06 and Crosby ate him alive on the scoresheet that year to the tune of nearly 2 points per game. Lowest +/- of any regular D on the team. I remember him being a big liability, which is probably why the Red Wings bought him out in the first place.

In 07-08, Hatcher missed half the games. I can't remember how he looked in that particular season off the top of my head, but at a glance, his analytics were abominable, which doesn't suggest he turned back the clock.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If I'm starting a team, in an era of unknown style, I'd take my chances with Derian Hatcher ahead of Sergei Zubov.I like the unique combination of skills Hatcher brings (leadership, toughness, nastiness, fighting, size, elite defense, PK'ing).I think he's a very useful piece to start an eventual championship team with, but in fairness so is Sergei Zubov.

I completely agree.

I saw someone else say Hatcher was better for his era, but Zubov would be better for any other... maybe that would be true if hockey history started in 1995 or so, but I feel like Hatcher would have been quite at home playing pre-expansion hockey, for example.

Another point in Hatcher's favor - I think that if one were ranking the all-time best penalty killing and power play defensemen, Hatcher would rank quite a bit higher on the all-time PKer list than Zubov would rank on the all-time PP pointmen list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Does Chelios count? If so, Chelios too.

Yeah, I think Chelios would from his latter Chicago and early Detroit years.

Konstantinov would count as well. Finished 2nd and 4th in Norris voting his final two seasons despite not being a PP guy. He did play for an offensive, possession unit obviously though.

Hatcher and Stevens were probably in a different tier of stay at home though.

I wasn't thinking of Konstantinov, since his career barely overlapped Hatcher's prime. But anyway, here we go, time to be thorough:

Since 1996*, here is everyone who made the postseason All-Star team as a 1st or 2nd Team All-Star defenseman, while scoring fewer than 40 points:

*not including the lockout-shortened 2013 season.

player|season|points|led league in +\-
Scott Stevens|1997|26|no
Derian Hatcher|2003|30|no
Scott Stevens|2001|31|no
Vladimir Konstantinov|1996|34|yes
Chris Pronger|1998|36|yes
Chris Chelios|2002|39|yes